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What is house baelish' sigil?


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47 replies to this topic

#21 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:32 PM

 

She could have a cadete dynasty. Starklish, or baestarks. with a direwolf humping the titan while eating a mockingbird

Only if she is legitimised or reveals herself as Sansa Stark. Otherwise, she got no right to any sigil.



#22 northernmonkey

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:59 PM

Only if she is legitimised or reveals herself as Sansa Stark. Otherwise, she got no right to any sigil.

 

I thought bastards get to use an inverted version of their family's sigil. 



#23 Stannis Eats No Peaches

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:00 PM

I always thought that the actual House sigil was the Titan, and the mockingbird was just his personal sigil.

Doesn't matter. You'll all burn.

:lol:

#24 LC Jaime Lannister

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:02 PM

The mockingbird is the Littlefinger's sigil, the titan of braavos is House Baelish's sigil. It's not uncommon for people to have their own sigils, the tyrell sons, brynden tully, Joffrey, Robb stark.



#25 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:07 PM

 

I thought bastards get to use an inverted version of their family's sigil. 

Noble bastards could use an inverted version of their family's sigil. Meaning, bastards that acquired nobility on their own, not being a noble's bastard. Alayne Stone is legally a commoner.

 

There are several ways for a bastard to become nobility:

  • Being legitimised. They could use their parents' sigil then as well, or make up their own.
  • Being knighted. They can make up their own sigils then, often inverting their parents'.
  • Being given a Lordship. See above
  • Marrying a noble. Taking the spouse's sigil.

That's it. Knightship and Lordship are out of the question for a female. Marrying doesn't get Alayne her own sigil, which leaves only being legitimised.



#26 Firefawkz

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

Lordships arent out of the question for females, there are plenty of females with landed titles in westeros...

 

wasn't brienne of tarth a knight?



#27 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:23 PM

Lordships arent out of the question for females, there are plenty of females with landed titles in westeros...

 

wasn't brienne of tarth a knight?

Daughters and wifes all of them, not a single one in her own right. A ruling Lady is a placeholder, no more. A female won't be awarded a Lordship by herself - she could never fulfill the associated (military) duties.

 

No, Brienne isn't a knight. She behaves like one, but she can never be a knight. As Jaime points out regularly. She is Lord Selwyn's daughter, nothing more.



#28 Firefawkz

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:29 PM

Daughters and wifes all of them, not a single one in her own right. A ruling Lady is a placeholder, no more. A female won't be awarded a Lordship by herself - she could never fulfill the associated (military) duties.

 

No, Brienne isn't a knight. She behaves like one, but she can never be a knight. As Jaime points out regularly. She is Lord Selwyn's daughter, nothing more.

 

Well tell that to the Mormonts. Don't you have to be a knight to be a member of the kingsguard? she was part of Renlys rainbow guard, even if it was just for a little while, and even if he wasn't the true king


Edited by Cassana Blackfyre, 24 November 2013 - 03:29 PM.


#29 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:33 PM

 

Well tell that to the Mormonts. Don't you have to be a knight to be a member of the kingsguard? she was part of Renlys rainbow guard, even if it was just for a little while, and even if he wasn't the true king

Maege Mormont isn't Lord Mormont's daughter? Alysanne isn't Lord Mormont's granddaughter? That's something new...

 

Renly shat all over the laws anyway. The Hound wasn't a knight either.



#30 Firefawkz

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:37 PM

Maege Mormont isn't Lord Mormont's daughter? Alysanne isn't Lord Mormont's granddaughter? That's something new...

 

Renly shat all over the laws anyway. The Hound wasn't a knight either.

 

I was referring to your point about women not being able to fulfil millitary duties.. 



#31 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:41 PM

 

I was referring to your point about women not being able to fulfil millitary duties.. 

I'm talking about de jure and in the eyes of society. Not about de facto.



#32 Firefawkz

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:43 PM

I'm talking about de jure and in the eyes of society. Not about de facto.

 

Which society? the northmen don't have a problem fighting alongside girls, neither do the iron born, dornish or the free folk



#33 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:49 PM

 

Which society? the northmen don't have a problem fighting alongside girls, neither do the iron born, dornish or the free folk

They very much do. That's why Dacey Mormont went to Robb's bodyguard with a "I dare you to say anything"-expression. That's why the Ned threatened to break Needle. That's why Rickard forbid Lyanna to fight.

 

Furthermore, the Vale and the Riverlands are both Andalish - which you left out of the list anyway.



#34 The Dornishman's Widow

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:35 PM

Noble bastards could use an inverted version of their family's sigil. Meaning, bastards that acquired nobility on their own, not being a noble's bastard. Alayne Stone is legally a commoner.

 

There are several ways for a bastard to become nobility:

[...]

 

Are you sure that nobility is a requirement for using the reversed arms? I know that the Citadel talks of "noble bastards", but it seems to be fully sourced, and the source it quotes actually never mentions the word noble, but just says "[...] had reversed those colors on his own banners, as many bastards did." (Yeah, the person in question is knighted, like practically every adult male.)

 

Obviously bastards who aren't knights have few occasions to display sigils and banners. Marrying is one though. While we never see an unknighted bastard's wedding, I doubt that someone like Alayne Stone would marry without a wedding cloak, and it would surprise me if it's just left blank.

 

 

 

Another observation about the status of Petyr's mockingbird: In AFFC, it's mentioned that he presented Sansa aka Alayne with a mockingbird clasp to fasten her cloak. This is a very weak hint only of course, but it goes slightly in the direction that he might consider the mockingbird to apply to his whole family.

 

 

 

BTW, considering how long the thread is going, I'm surprised that none of the lucky people with access to the app have looked it up yet...?


Edited by The Dornishman's Widow, 24 November 2013 - 05:38 PM.


#35 Skoboe

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

He's using the mockingbird sigil as a piss-take while he plays his game of thrones and sings the tunes of other houses...the titan sigil was just a cover.

 

His real sigil will be revealed soon - just as he destroys the Lannisters, and it will be a red lion rampant regardant with a forked tail, armed and langued gold, on silver.

 

:)



#36 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:22 PM

 

Are you sure that nobility is a requirement for using the reversed arms? I know that the Citadel talks of "noble bastards", but it seems to be fully sourced, and the source it quotes actually never mentions the word noble, but just says "[...] had reversed those colors on his own banners, as many bastards did." (Yeah, the person in question is knighted, like practically every adult male.)

 

Obviously bastards who aren't knights have few occasions to display sigils and banners. Marrying is one though. While we never see an unknighted bastard's wedding, I doubt that someone like Alayne Stone would marry without a wedding cloak, and it would surprise me if it's just left blank.

Jon shrugged. "Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords, but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister." - Game, p. 73

 

Jon Snow doesn't get a sigil. He is neither knighted, nor a noble. And not yet a Crow.



#37 grand old duke of stark

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:50 PM

For LF, mocking birds seem perfect.  LF revels in taking the mickey out of everyone.  However, I think his sigil should be a leering fox.  The leer is for the brothers, the fox is for stealing what others have and being crazy and clever at the same time.



#38 Hawkish

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:02 PM

Bastards don't get a sigil unless knighted, or raised to nobility. 

 

There is actually quite a complex code when it comes to heraldry. I know in regards to my own families history when the brothers split each changed their heraldry in some form. The English descendents kept the blue with gold, the scottish changed to red with gold(my line), and the irish kept the blue but changed the sigils. I think the majority that moved to America did as well, but i'm not entirely sure. 

 

I think the titan would be the actual family sigil, where the mockingbird is his personal sigil.


Edited by Hawkish, 24 November 2013 - 11:03 PM.


#39 Not Dead Just Broken

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:12 AM

He's using the mockingbird sigil as a piss-take while he plays his game of thrones and sings the tunes of other houses...the titan sigil was just a cover.

 

His real sigil will be revealed soon - just as he destroys the Lannisters, and it will be a red lion rampant regardant with a forked tail, armed and langued gold, on silver.

 

:)

 

Wait, where did the LF as secret Reyne theory come from?



#40 Skoboe

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:21 AM

 

Wait, where did the LF as secret Reyne theory come from?

 

Ha...I threw it out there a couple of weeks ago. http://asoiaf.wester...e-the-valonqar/

 

Just something I been thinking about...no real smoking gun but I can't shake it :)