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About Theon kinslayer


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27 replies to this topic

#1 The weirwood knight

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:01 PM

At the end of ADWD many people curse Theon for being an kinslayer.

The hooded man, the spearwives, crowfood Umber.

But why?

 

Reek/Theon is infamous throughout Westeros for being a turncloak, not a kinslayer.

Killing your foster brothers is considered a hideous act but not kinslaying.

If a hostage could rise to the status of a true member of his captor's family, killing him would be kingslaying too.

 

Yet nobody would accuse Ned Stark of anything if he chopped Theon's head off, that's why you keep hostages after all, to kill them if need to be.

 

Obvisiouly Theon didn't kill his father, uncle or sister but what about bastards sons?

Bevore Reek lost his manhood he was quite a womanizer who liked the taste of norther girls.

 

And the only time he had children killed was at the mill at the acorn water.

Children of the miller's wife he used to sleep with regulary.

And he is known not to be good at recognizing familiar faces, since he didn't recognize Asha back on Pyke.

 

My guess is he killed at least one of his own bastards sons.

And given his terribles nightmares and denials afterwards he must have came to the same conclusion afterwards.

Any thoughts?



#2 Sordelor

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:06 PM

Could be, but therre's no proof for it, no proof against it either I guess?



#3 Firefawkz

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:13 PM

interesting..



#4 JungWheats

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:31 PM

It would have to have been the younger brother, I believe.

 

But it totally explains the part with Asha at the beginning; besides just showing us that Theon's a horny dufus, it sets him up to not recognize facial similarity later.



#5 complexphoenix

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:37 PM

The question of whether killing your foster brothers counts as kinslaying is debatable, just as the question of whether killing your third cousin once removed counts as kinslaying is debatable. Rickard Karstark called Robb a kinslayer for beheading him, when they were distant cousins, but few others considered Robb a kinslayer for it. GRRM has said that kinslaying is a matter of degrees.



#6 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:43 PM

Theon himself called Robb his brother quite often.

The question of whether killing your foster brothers counts as kinslaying is debatable, just as the question of whether killing your third cousin once removed counts as kinslaying is debatable. Rickard Karstark called Robb a kinslayer for beheading him, when they were distant cousins, but few others considered Robb a kinslayer for it. GRRM has said that kinslaying is a matter of degrees.

Distant cousins, as in >50 generations.


Edited by Bright Blue Eyes, 24 November 2013 - 03:44 PM.


#7 The weirwood knight

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:58 PM

The question of whether killing your foster brothers counts as kinslaying is debatable, just as the question of whether killing your third cousin once removed counts as kinslaying is debatable. Rickard Karstark called Robb a kinslayer for beheading him, when they were distant cousins, but few others considered Robb a kinslayer for it. GRRM has said that kinslaying is a matter of degrees.

The question is debatable.

However someone who knows that Theon and the Stark kids were close will be inclined to curse Theon a kinslayer.

Others probably won't.

 

We don't know who the hell this "hooded man" really is and what he knows.

The spearwives certainly only know Reek/Theon killed two children he grew up with.

Hideous, but killing people who grow up with you is not kinslayin from their perspective.

And Crowfood Umber only knows Theon was Stark's ward and betrayed him.

 

Yet they all cursed him.



#8 Mad Monkey

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:04 PM

Theon himself called Robb his brother quite often.

Distant cousins, as in >50 generations.

 

I think Rickard and Robb were farther part as relatives than Robert and Rhaegar. I think Rickard was mostly grasping at straws rather than making a carefully reasoned legal case for Robb being a kinslayer. In fact, most of the time, when people use the word, "kinslayer" it's usually just the nastiest word they can think of. It's like calling someone a 'whore' even though they aren't actually a prostitute... You can't interpret it literally because it's just spite.


Edited by Mad Monkey, 24 November 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#9 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:05 PM

"Foster brothers". It's very well established and known all through the North how Theon and Robb saw each other.

 

On the other hand, who could reasonably know that Theon killed the miller's family? Or that he slept with the miller's wife? And who would actually care?



#10 jarl the climber

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:18 PM

"Foster brothers". It's very well established and known all through the North how Theon and Robb saw each other.

 

On the other hand, who could reasonably know that Theon killed the miller's family? Or that he slept with the miller's wife? And who would actually care?

The Miller probably wasn't happy about it.



#11 Robin the Mighty

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:22 PM

You are new, this was discussed and re-discussed, theon is around 20 while the millers boys are around bran's age, its impossible for him to be the father. And they hate him for killing his foster-family  



#12 Bloodraven's Lost Eye

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

I think it's an ironic twist by GRRM; the Northmen call him kinslayer because Theon was like a brother to the Stark kids. Theon admits being a turncloak but denies being a kinslayer on the grounds that the Starks weren't his family. Unbeknownst to the Northmen, he still IS a kinslayer, because one or both of the miller's kids were his.



#13 complexphoenix

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:25 PM

You are new, this was discussed and re-discussed, theon is around 20 while the millers boys are around bran's age, its impossible for him to be the father. And they hate him for killing his foster-family  

 

The miller's boys are roughly the same age and size as Bran and Rickon. Theon could not have a bastard the same age as Bran, but he could have one the same age as Rickon.



#14 The Sullen Sellsword

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:31 PM

I hate this theory.

 

The kin they refer to are obviously the Starks.

 

Nobody knows about the Miller's children.



#15 The weirwood knight

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:32 PM

You are new, this was discussed and re-discussed, theon is around 20 while the millers boys are around bran's age, its impossible for him to be the father. And they hate him for killing his foster-family  

I doubt it, no offense.

 

The younger miller's boy must be around Rickon's age to provide a suitable body to burn and display in front of Winterfell.

Rickon is 3 or 4 when Theon seized Winterfell.

Given that a 16 or 17 year old Theon was surely willing and capable to sire a bastard, King Robert was for shure when he sired Mya Stone in the Vale.



#16 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:33 PM

The Miller probably wasn't happy about it.

He probably wasn't happy about his own death as well. Either way, what do these smallfolk matter to the nobility?



#17 Man of Many Faces

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:36 PM

Theon and Reek had the whole Miller's family killed so who would really know. More importantly why would they then just call him a kinslayer instead of bringing up the point that Bran and Rickon would still be alive if the two bodies were actually Theon's bastards? I would think the fact that the two remaining sons of Ned Stark and heirs of Winterfell are still alive and running about would be a bit more important then just saying "Theon is kinslayer he killed his two own bastards and lied about who they were. Oh well let's just call him names."



#18 grand old duke of stark

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:13 PM

I've always thought it meant Rickon and Bran.  But in a way, betraying Robb was one step that could be counted as leading to Robb's death.  And those two were like brothers.   Also, the 'kinslayer' accustaions are made in Winterfell, where Theon's activities were tantamount to kinslaying.  So while technically it may not be true, symbolically it is.



#19 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:26 PM

Ramsay is the only one who actualy knows Theon didnt kill Bran and Rickon, why would anyone call him a kinslayer for any reason other than this? It would involve them being aware that he had sired a bastard on a miller's wife, a fact he himself is unaware of, and that he had then killed this bastard and his.half-brother in order to cover up the disappearance of Bran and Rickon. How could anyone possibly.know this?
He is called kinslayer because he was a Stark in all but blood, and to most if not all it appears that he has killed his two foster brothers, who were more brothers than his own ever were. Thats good enough for.kinslaying

#20 kiasyd

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:49 PM

Bran Vras has a nice (albeit long) analysis on Winterfell aDwD events that somewhat explores the miller-bastards hypothesis: http://branvras.free...s/Contents.html