The Frosted King Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Direct rebellion alone?Flouting of commands?What is too far, n what skirts the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 selling slaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand old duke of stark Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Myriad reasons, though some are probably mitigated by cirumstance. Breaking of guest-right? Murder? Treason? Threatening a member of the royal family (Brandon)? Desertion from NW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Depends on the overlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Depends on the overlordthisBut in generalTreason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckthorn Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Probably kidnapping a member of the overlord's house or threatening said Lord with a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Poaching, stealing, insulting, deserting, that kind of stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning down the House Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 "my father taught me it was death to draw steel against your liege lord." Robb Stark(paraphrase) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I think it depends on what the overlord deems serious enough. For example Eddard Stark beheaded the Night's Watch deserter because he deserted the Wall, and his duties. Treason is also a crime that is universally grounds for beheading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Lets not forget that old feudal offense: failure to pay tribute to the guy above you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe42m1 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Lets not forget that old feudal offense: failure to pay tribute to the guy above you. for something like that, i think they'd lock you up or confiscate your property rather than kill you outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 for something like that, i think they'd lock you up or confiscate your property rather than kill you outright. Depends on the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Robb comments that Harrion Karstark could never openly forgive his father's killer, even though Rickard was formally condemned and admitted his guilt. This brings up an interesting question - when could a lord be executed without retaliation from his heirs or House? Would the fear of revolt usually lead overlords to exile their bannermen to Essos or the Wall, or enact some other punishment like hostage-taking, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Robb comments that Harrion Karstark could never openly forgive his father's killer, even though Rickard was formally condemned and admitted his guilt. This brings up an interesting question - when could a lord be executed without retaliation from his heirs or House? Would the fear of revolt usually lead overlords to exile their bannermen to Essos or the Wall, or enact some other punishment like hostage-taking, etc? Well, I think there is no codified punishment / sentence. A lord can do whatever he thinks he can get away with. Only those above him can say "stop". A king can do as he likes. Certain crimes likely have certain traditional / customary punishments, but I would not imagine it is consistent. The highest crime would be treason or armed insurrection. It is only called treason if it is against the monarch. Of course, death - usually gruesome and drawn-out - is the punishment for that. Regicide would be another. That crime would typically not be a sent-to-wall offense, I think it is straight to execution. Mass execution in some cases. For example: Tywin's treatment of the Raynes of Castamere. The king could have spoken up and told Tywin that annihilating them as a family, right down to the last man woman and child, was excessive, but didn't. Although Tywin was only a lord, it sounds like he was expected to put down the insurrection without royal help, but then was also given free rein to crack down on the rebels as he saw fit. Some lords do not raise a hand against their underlings unless it affects them. For example, it is clear enough Tywin let Gregor Clegane rape and murder people well before the War of 5 Kings, and did nothing about it. By contrast Eddard Stark would not have allowed something like that, nor Robb after him. The example there is that Ramsay Snow and Reek were being hunted down for what they had done to the widow of Hornwood. Desertion and oathbreaking seem to be a crime that merits death, though clearly some are held to their oaths more readily than others, depending on who they broke an oath to. Jaime Lannister got away with killing Aerys, which no matter how deserved was still oathbreaking. Still, a lot of crimes would not merit a death sentence or even maiming - monetary recompense, hard labour, exile to the wall, being forced to be a hostage or send a family member as ward, etc. all seem to be options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Robb comments that Harrion Karstark could never openly forgive his father's killer, even though Rickard was formally condemned and admitted his guilt. This brings up an interesting question - when could a lord be executed without retaliation from his heirs or House? Would the fear of revolt usually lead overlords to exile their bannermen to Essos or the Wall, or enact some other punishment like hostage-taking, etc?Which, again, shows that while he may have still been mad, Aerys' actions leading up to Jon Arryn raising his banners weren't all that crazy in concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWizard Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I think a good system for punishing vassals would go like this. 1st minor offense( not paying taxes, siding with the wrong side in a war but not taking serious action, planning minor treason) take a hostage some gold and maybe some land 2nd minor offense or 1st major offense(open rebellion, slaying a relative in battle, open treason) send current lord to wall or behead him, take hostage,land,or gold but let next in line retain title. 2nd major offense or a unforgivable crime(Ramsay or Walder Frey level stuff) wipe the house out minus kids(or not) strip all titles/destroy their lands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The offenses are already well-listed. So: Nobility is not to be hanged. It is their privilege to be beheaded. Hanging them like commoners is spitting on the honor of their House and nobility in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The offenses are already well-listed. So: Nobility is not to be hanged. It is their privilege to be beheaded. Hanging them like commoners is spitting on the honor of their House and nobility in general.Beheading is an honourable death, because it's the sort of death a man could suffer in battle. Hanging is always shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 This is kind of an interesting topic because it isn't super-well spelled out in the books what the duties/obligations are of a vassal to an overlord and vice versa. For example, if one's liege lord is in open rebellion against the crown does the vassal still have an obligation to fight on his side? Do you betray your overlord or your king? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ours if the Fury Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Doing something against the common laws of westros selling slaves betraying overlord disobeying direct orders ?? any others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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