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Is Stannis main motivation for the crown to prove himself better than Robert?


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#1 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:23 AM

I don't think Stannis is doing what he is doing out of duty or inherit greed, but because of his ego.

 

"Whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better."

This explains his motivation. Robert was a better warrior, more handsome, more charismatic, and arguably even a better commander.

 

However, Robert was a shit king. In this regard, Robert would be king first, but Stannis would be king better.

 

"All the same, the king had been on the point of refusing them until Lord Bryce Caron said, "Your Grace, if the sorceress is with us, afterward men will say it was her victory, not yours. They will say you owe the crown to her spells." That had turned the tide. Davos himself had held his tongue during the arguments, but truth be told, he had not been sad to see the back of her."

 

This strikes me as odd. Why does Stannis care so much if people think he won because of a sorceress or not?

 

Its because Robert won his war with his warhammer alone. He didn't need dragons, or magic or any of that crap. Stannis being better than Robert in a regard would be absolutely ruined if they found out he "cheated" in a sense.

 

And we know that Stannis has ISSUES with Robert. His entire crest for the crown seems to be one gigantic ego trip.



#2 Vaxis

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:26 AM

I do believe there is a bit of jealousy and buried animosity with his brother that drives Stannis, but if he did want to prove himself better in the eyes of god(s) and men, it would be his victory through lack of allies. Even with assistance by sorcery, if he took the throne with his current list of vassals, it would be quite impressive. Robert needed the Starks, Arryns, and Tullys to get his victory. That said, Stannis is desperate for allies and would do anything to get a few hundred more men.

 

But it's hard to compare. Stannis will never be happy, his brothers shadow will cover him no matter how many thrones he wins.



#3 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:27 AM

I do believe there is a bit of jealousy and buried animosity with his brother that drives Stannis, but if he did want to prove himself better in the eyes of god(s) and men, it would be his victory through lack of allies. Even with assistance by sorcery, if he took the throne with his current list of vassals, it would be quite impressive. Robert needed the Starks, Arryns, and Tullys to get his victory. That said, Stannis is desperate for allies and would do anything to get a few hundred more men.

 

But it's hard to compare. Stannis will never be happy, his brothers shadow will cover him no matter how many thrones he wins.

 

But the thing is, Robert was presumably able to gain many of those allies because of his charisma. He turned friends into enemies and that was a rare gift he had. I believe Asha brought it up to Stannis and it pissed him off.


Edited by Strongboar_Crakehall, 25 November 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#4 Vaxis

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:30 AM

Sure. It won't stop Stannis from being upset about everything though.

 

I'll also add that while I think that jealousy is part of the motivation, I still think his desire for justice and lawful rule is the main factor in all of it. There are bigger Stannis fans that will be able to write pages about this.


Edited by Vaxis, 25 November 2013 - 10:30 AM.


#5 Ice and fire freak

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:31 AM

I would say its because of his duty actually.

#6 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:32 AM

I would say its because of his duty actually.

 

If it were about doing his duty then he'd have just brought Mel along and not cared about what people would say afterwards.



#7 Mad Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:42 AM

It's probably a mistake to reduce Stannis's motiviations to a single word, whether it's ego or duty or greed. In fact, that's kind of how Melisandre thinks, and I don't think we're meant to agree that her monochromatic view of human nature is accurate. I agree that a big part of it is probably the desire to show up his brother and prove that he has what it takes to be a real king, or a better king, but to say that this is his entire motive is absurd. How many people undertake major journeys or missions for exactly one reason?



#8 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:44 AM

It's probably a mistake to reduce Stannis's motiviations to a single word, whether it's ego or duty or greed. In fact, that's kind of how Melisandre thinks, and I don't think we're meant to agree that her monochromatic view of human nature is accurate. I agree that a big part of it is probably the desire to show up his brother and prove that he has what it takes to be a real king, or a better king, but to say that this is his entire motive is absurd. How many people undertake major journeys or missions for exactly one reason?

 

Well isn't the general argument that Stannis is moved p much entirely and solely by duty?

 

I can see him trying to patch up the realm too, but I think his main motivation is what I said.



#9 Mad Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:51 AM



 

Well isn't the general argument that Stannis is moved p much entirely and solely by duty?

 

I can see him trying to patch up the realm too, but I think his main motivation is what I said.

 

And I think that argument is wrong too. No one has just one motivation, except for maybe a robot. Stannis is motivated by duty, but he is probably also motivated by jealousy, the desire to patch up the realm, the desire to strengthen/honor his family, the desire to make good the promises he's made, the desire to avenge his brother, the desire to punish his enemies, the desire to prove himself... One of these motivations might be above the other ones in importance, but I think this story is well-written then there's no way that such a major character would be paper-thin enough to have one reason.



#10 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:54 AM

Huh. Stannis is the deepest non pov character so what you said does have some truth to it.

#11 Lord Jennings

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:55 AM

His motivation is that the throne is his by right.



#12 Brad Rivers

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:58 AM

While I'm sure Stannis wants to claim the throne to prove he's Roberts equal, I think the main motivation is that to him, the IT is his by rights. In Westeros the throne should be his bc Tommen is a bastard of incest.

I would say if Stannis gains the IT that it's a bigger accomplishment than Robert's. He lacks Roberts people skills and ability to turn enemies into friends. Plus the kingdom now is much more fractured.

Renly should have known his role and backed Stannis and saved the 7K a load of trouble.

#13 shiola

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:02 AM

His main motivation is because it's his responsibility.  Plain and simple.  True, the two quotes provided in the OP don't necessarily support this-- but what about the rest of the insight we've gotten for him?  It points to him doing what he's doing because he has to.  Not because he wants power or to prove anything.



#14 Mad Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

I'm actually not sure that Renly backing Stannis would have helped. The only major power that Renly had that Stannis never had was the Tyrell alliance, which Stannis could not have entered into since he was already married. If Renly brought the Stormlords over to Stannis, Stannis would basically be in the same position he was at the Battle of the Blackwater, and the Lannisters could have still allied with Tyrell.

 

I think the OP is right that showing up Robert is a big part of Stannis's motivation, but I can't see that being his only goal.



#15 David Selig

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

It's part of his motivation, for sure. But his ambition and desire for power play a bigger role IMO. The duty element is way overrated. Or more precisely, for Stannis somehow "duty" always turns out to be doing things which benefit him the most.



#16 Bronn Urgandy

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:45 PM

It's part of his motivation, for sure. But his ambition and desire for power play a bigger role IMO. The duty element is way overrated. Or more precisely, for Stannis somehow "duty" always turns out to be doing things which benefit him the most.

 

Like starving in Storms End for a year? And then giving it up for baby brother? Yeah, I bet Stannis was relishing the wonderful positions doing his duty placed him there.

 

I think another motivation of his (to go with those listed) is that he wants Cersie punished for humiliating and killing Robert.



#17 Iona

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:34 PM

"Whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better."

This explains his motivation. Robert was a better warrior, more handsome, more charismatic, and arguably even a better commander.

 

However, Robert was a shit king. In this regard, Robert would be king first, but Stannis would be king better.

 

I've always had this feeling that Stannis knows that even if he someday would sit on the IT, people would always think back to "good ol' days with Bobby". So I don't think he's motivated by wanting to show everyone he'll be a better king than big brother, I believe he knows he'll not be loved, but doesn't give a damn. He'd do what he thought was best for the realm, knowing he would not win any popularity contests.

 

What is evident that Stannis has never been happy to part with his toys. He's been bitter for not getting Storm's End, because he feels it was his. Now it's the same with the IT. It's his, so he has to have it.



#18 devilrob6

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:17 PM

I do think duty is first, because he'd never have gone after the throne if he had believed that Cersei's kids were the legal heirs (unlike Renly). His issues about Robert do influence his thinking and his actions, but i don't think it's his main motivation. 

 

 

 

I'm actually not sure that Renly backing Stannis would have helped. The only major power that Renly had that Stannis never had was the Tyrell alliance, which Stannis could not have entered into since he was already married. If Renly brought the Stormlords over to Stannis, Stannis would basically be in the same position he was at the Battle of the Blackwater, and the Lannisters could have still allied with Tyrell.

 

I think the OP is right that showing up Robert is a big part of Stannis's motivation, but I can't see that being his only goal.

 

If Renly had supported Stannis, than he wouldn't have a lot of soldiers and lords defecting to the other side when seeing Renly's armour during Blackwater. He might have had some more support after that battle instead of just the Florents. But still, they would have needed more support besides just the Stormlands. Maybe if they had won the Blackwater and removed (killed) Cersei  and Tyrion and kept Joffrey and Tommen as a hostage the Lannisters might have bent the knee.



#19 Draco_Dracul

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:27 PM

It's a very big part of it.  One thing I will credit Stannis for is that his bid for the throne isn't about power and it isn't about glory (at least not in the traditional sense), it's about the respect he feels he is due.  He feels becoming King will give him the respect and validation he feels he has always been denied.  Unfortunately for him winning the crown by force against one generally acknowledged to be the legitimate king wouldn't have gotten him that and given his lack of strong alliances or charisma would have likely had lords naming him usurper in the open.

 

 

If Renly had supported Stannis, than he wouldn't have a lot of soldiers and lords defecting to the other side when seeing Renly's armour during Blackwater. He might have had some more support after that battle instead of just the Florents. But still, they would have needed more support besides just the Stormlands. Maybe if they had won the Blackwater and removed (killed) Cersei  and Tyrion and kept Joffrey and Tommen as a hostage the Lannisters might have bent the knee.

If Renly had supported Stannis the Tyrells would have abandoned him and they would be fighting an equal force in Tywin's host.  I'd give them even odds of victory and then being left stuck in King's Landing with few troops even if they win.  They wouldn't have Tommen and both were intent on killing Joffery.  They won't even be able to get the King in the North to bend as Sansa will either be dead on Cersei's order or spirited out of the city by Little Finger or The Hound.

 

And even all that is assuming the Tyrells stay neutral rather than actively betraying Renly for breaking the deal and putting a man that is married to a Florent on Throne.



#20 David Selig

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:31 PM

 

Like starving in Storms End for a year? And then giving it up for baby brother? Yeah, I bet Stannis was relishing the wonderful positions doing his duty placed him there.

What was the alternative? Surrender the castle and hope the Mad King shows mercy?


Edited by David Selig, 25 November 2013 - 07:31 PM.