[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[FooFighterDDS]

Cregan might not have gone to battle because he was the only Stark and had to remain in Winterfell.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Not sure if this has been discussed already, but there was some really trippy stuff going on with dragon-referencing pronouns in my Kindle edition of the ebook. As in, the same dragon being referred to using masculine and feminine pronouns in the same paragraph - even in back to back sentences. I'm thinking of the battle between Vhagar and Caraxes, for instance, in which Caraxes appears to be both male and female according to pronoun usage.

Given Maester Aemon's mention of changeable dragon sex/gender, I'm prepared to believe TPatQ was intentionally written this way. But I thought I'd ask just to be sure... in case the Kindle edition just got a poor transmission of the text.

So, did everybody else see this "pronoun vacillation" in TPatQ?

.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

i didn't notice at first, but yeah, the hard copy refers to Caraxes as both male and female during the battle between Daemon/Caraxes and Aemond/Vhgar.

[The Lord's Kiss]

My favorite moment is when Daemon Dark Sister'd the hell out of Aemond. That shit was epic!

Absolutely. And he pulled a mid-air dragon leap to do it! I wonder who recovered Dark Sister, because the next person we know of to wield it was the Aemon the Dragonknight, and then Bloodraven. I'm just waiting for Arya to somehow get her hands on it, but then she'll have to give up Needle, so I don't know if that will actually happen.

And yeah, Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk. How is that not part of the theme of the novella? Brother against brother, that's not a theme of "The Princess and the Queen"? Oh well. With all of this Targaryen discussion involving their dragons, and the extent of the Citadel's propaganda, plus Larys Clubfooting his way around the secret passages of King's Landing( I guess these secrets get passed on to the master of whisperers, at least the really good ones, and have found their way to his successor Varys), I also forgot about one of the most famous stories to come from this legend, and so did the "maester" who recorded this entire tale. It just seems strange to have it mentioned often in present day Westeros and just forget about it when the actual story is laid out.

The text says "Ser Erryk Cargyll (twin to Ser Arryk) and Lorent Marbrand, with Princess Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, remained unaware and uninvolved as their brothers-in-arms went forth into the night to rouse the members of the small council from their beds." (page 705)

Ser Erryk is then named when Rhaenyra forms her own "black council."

The last time either of them is mentioned is when Rhaenyra is crowned, and the Aegon II sends Grand Maester Orwyle to Dragonstone under a peace banner to giver her terms of surrender. Ser Arryk is part of the retinue. All we hear of this is how Rhaenyra calls her half brother a pretender, and claims that she will have his head. There is no violence mentioned. We never see the twins' names mentioned again.

I am of the opinion that they killed each other when Rhaenyra took King's Landing. Since there's no evidence of either one surviving past that event, it's rather likely that while Aegon II was recovering from his injuries, he needed a Kingsguard to protect him, and on the day that Rhaenyra did her neat little trick, Arryk may have been the one guarding him. He may have been left there by Larys as a decoy, and would be willing to give his life for his king, since that's his freaking job. I can imagine Rhaenyra ordering Erryk to search for the pretender, and ordering him to bring her his head, only for them to encounter each other and fight to the death.

That's what I'm going to believe with regards to the circumstances of what happened between the twins of the Kingsguard who killed each other in the Dance of the Dragons, Sers Arryk and Erryk.

[Newstar]

Given all the speculation on the boards about ASOIAF Aegon being a fake (much like Perkin Warbeck in the Wars of the Roses), I was pleased to see a "Perkin the Flea" crowning the fake King Trystane claimed to be the late King Viserys' bastard, undoubtedly a shoutout to the historical Perkin Warbeck, and (dare I hope?) a hint that the Perkin speculation about Aegon is going somewhere.

So, did everybody else see this "pronoun vacillation" in TPatQ?

The result of sloppy editing, maybe?

...It's funny how dry and even tedious these battles, annihilations of towns, bloody political intrigues, spicy romances, etc. sound without the benefit of the POV narration of ASOIAF...which is too bad, because historians' accounts of historical events (also told in third person narration, for obvious reasons) can be riveting stuff if properly written.

[Sevumar]

On the dragons:

One important nobody seems to have mentioned yet. No wild dragons apparently feeds on humans. That should add more fuel to the theory that Drogon did not kill that child in the beginning of ADwD.

I don't think we can interpret the actions of the wild dragons this way. Drogon's own actions show that he's willing to eat human flesh:

Drogon landed on the carcass and sank his claws into the smoking flesh. As he began to feed, he made no distinction between Barsena and the boar.

“Oh, gods,” moaned Reznak, “he’s eating her!” The seneschal covered his mouth.

One insight we get from P&Q is that dragons have preferred foods. Perhaps Drogon has something of an appetite for human flesh, but his clutchmates may not necessarily share it. Later in the pit incident, Dany thinks of the consequences if she shows fear to Drogon, "If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me."

[dotheknifefight]

Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk. How is that not part of the theme of the novella?

the Anthology. "Dangerous Women". We'll get a more extended version.

[dotheknifefight]

Given all the speculation on the boards about ASOIAF Aegon being a fake (much like Perkin Warbeck in the Wars of the Roses), I was pleased to see a "Perkin the Flea" crowning the fake King Trystane claimed to be the late King Viserys' bastard, undoubtedly a shoutout to the historical Perkin Warbeck, and (dare I hope?) a hint that the Perkin speculation about Aegon is going somewhere.

The result of sloppy editing, maybe?

...It's funny how dry and even tedious these battles, annihilations of towns, bloody political intrigues, spicy romances, etc. sound without the benefit of the POV narration of ASOIAF...which is too bad, because historians' accounts of historical events (also told in third person narration, for obvious reasons) can be riveting stuff if properly written.

1) story is from different perspectives

2) dragons change sex

[Boobah]

So, did everybody else see this "pronoun vacillation" in TPatQ?

.

I'm not entirely convinced it's intentional. There are plenty of pronoun typos is aSoIaF that amount to a single letter and even in tPatQ there is at least one (I've only read it once now) instance where "Aemond" was replaced with "Aemon" (which also amounts to a single letter)

[Newstar]

I'm not entirely convinced it's intentional. There are plenty of pronoun typos is aSoIaF that amount to a single letter and even in tPatQ there is at least one (I've only read it once now) instance where "Aemond" was replaced with "Aemon" (which also amounts to a single letter)

Yes, my Kindle edition had all kinds of typos.

[LordBloodraven]

At one moment, Daeron the Daring was described as the youngest son of king Aegon. So plenty of typos

[Sevumar]

One other question that came up during P&Q: Why did the Targaryens intermarry extensively with House Velaryon and not House Celtigar? Both are said to be of ancient and proud Valyrian heritage, but to our knowledge, there has been no record of intermarriage between the Celtigars and Targaryens.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thanks. and Ser Lepus as well

4. Right, yet this implys that they fought after the book, which it says they do, but its to such a magnatude that the heir goes from green to black. Seems like the war hasnt reached it's conclusion.... (Are all the mature tamed dragons dead?) Who do you think becomes Regent, Hand and Protector, Green or Black?

6.Gyldyne (how do you know that's how it is?) usually describes the before and after, we knew about Addam but she never said anything about Daemon (or Nettles, but I may be wrong about that) It's just a hunch though.

New Question. What happend to the Lord of Whisperers?

4. Aegon II had no brothers left at this point, and both his sons were most likely death as well. By all laws, which the greens claimed to have been following all along, the throne should pass to the next male Targaryen in line. That was Aegon III, Rhaenyra's son by Daemon,

With Aegon II death, who should the greens put on the throne anyway? Aemond is death, Daeron is death, and Jaehaerys is death. It is implied in the books that Maelor has died as well already (though nowhere is it stated exactly how and when). Helaena is death. Jaehaera is the only one left. She is described as being sweet and simple. Several people have suggested this discription could indicate that she was mentally a bit behind, a lackwit, which could indeed explain why they didn't seat her on the throne. All the people with Targaryen blood on the green fraction, besides Jaehaera, were death. They had one left to put on the throne.

6. I don't really understand. We knew about Addam but we don't hear anything about Daemon or Nettels? Are you referring to their deaths? Addam died in sight of men, so it was certain he had died. Daemon's death is a bit more difficult. It is mentioned his body was never found, but the chance he did indeed die is rather large, seeing as how he was jumping from dragon to dragon, without any protection. Though you can always, just as the singers, believe he lived but decided not to tell anyone, and lived the rest of his life far away. Nettels is only described as flying away on her dragon. It isn't indicated where she was going. She most likely survived the Dance, since she took no part after her last mention. She could even have lived another 50 years in peace, with a dragon for company, far away in the east.

7. We don't know yet what happened to the Lord of Whispers. But without a doubt we'll find out some day. :)

One other question that came up during P&Q: Why did the Targaryens intermarry extensively with House Velaryon and not House Celtigar? Both are said to be of ancient and proud Valyrian heritage, but to our knowledge, there has been no record of intermarriage between the Celtigars and Targaryens.

House Velaryon came from Valyria together with the Targaryens. I have no idea how and when House Celtigar came to Westeros. I always thought that some Velaryons had married into that house (or other people from Valyria), which is what gave them their Valyrian blood. But the Houses Targaryen and Velaryon arrived together, which might be the reason why they teamed up so often.

[The Lord's Kiss]

The first time he was introduced, he was called Daeron the Darling. Then they called him Daeron the Daring the next two times and it made more sense. But yeah, plenty of typos on the ereader. Aemond's name changed to Aemon too many times... tsk tsk.

[Iona]

Ok thanks for clearing that up. That makes it a slightly awkward usage, not a hint towards coloring.

It's by no means (even slightly) awkward usage. Try googling with the phrase "hoary old", and you quickly see it's a very established idiom. (The search yields 128k hits and among the first are dictionaries like Cambridge, Collins and Longman.)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If Ser Otto Hightower (or any other lord) had challenged Viserys I in his liftime it would be different. They could have asked him to summon a Great Council and let the realm decide. But waiting until his death to move against the king's will you have been entrusted with is the very definition of treason.

LOL isn't that pretty much what Ned Stark did.

[Lord Varys]

Tze,

Vhagar's age strongly suggests that she had a rider before Visenya claimed her. The same should be true for Meraxes and especially Balerion who hatched back in Valyria.

And we do know quite a bit about the first Aegon's children and grandchildren:

1. Aegon had only two sons by each of his sister-wives, and only one child by Visenya. Maegor was considerably younger than Aenys. We do know that Rhaenys had 2-3 daughters besides her son, Aenys, and that a 13-year-old Maegor was married to his eldest half-sister (Aenys had a non-Targaryen wife).

2. We do know that there were no mature dragons around during that time. Which also indicates that no Targaryen prince or princess died trying to claim an adult dragon.

3. Maegor refused to claim one of 'the lesser dragons' his half-siblings bonded with, being the first post-Dance Targaryen to claim one of the old dragons. Visenya was still alive when Aegon died. She outlived Aenys as well, perhaps even Maegor.

4. We do know that Meraxes died along with/before Rhaenys, so no potential failed dragonrider there.

5. We do know that Aenys had at least three children: Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Rhaena. All of them were dragonriders. His eldest child was a daughter and there was a debate whether she should come before Maegor in the line of succession, strongly indicating that she was a dragonrider, too, if she was not Rhaena.

It does seem to me that the Targaryens had more dragons than potential dragonriders after the Conquest. The three wild dragons do seem to be very old. The Cannibal could have hatched when Aegon's children were young (or even before the Conquest). Sheepstealer hatched when Jaehaerys was still young - indicating that there was no Targaryen around to bond with him. All his siblings had dragons, and Maegor did not have any children.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

How well known was Gyldayn's text in the time frame of aSoIaF? My initial assumption was that this was a rather basic summary of tDotD that would be used at the Citadel for history lessons, much like the account that Luwin gives of the CotF. Gyldayn, however, reveals the existence of the secret tunnels that lead into the Tower of the Hand. When those tunnels were found in aFfC, everyone seemed quite surprised. They never "remembered" that those tunnels had been used for assassinations before. Pycelle at least should have known about the historical use of the tunnels. (Yes, I'm well aware that the details of the Dance hadn't been formulated at the time Feast was written.) Gyldayn really didn't need to mention the tunnels at all; he could have left the details of Blood and Cheese's entry to the Tower a mystery. (A betrayal, a bribed guard, etc.)

Should we conclude that Gyldayn's work was not a public document, but a "classified" work from the Citadel?

[apmags11]

These threads have grown quickly since the release of DW. I'm in the US, so lots of others got head-starts. Apologies if the answer is already posted...

Question: has anyone put together a comprehensive TPatQ Targaryen family tree? Any links to images/websites?

Thanks.

[Ran]

Gyldayn's history of the Targaryens is a lost work, parts of it rediscovered only recently. There's a story behind that which the world book will explain.