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Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down


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#1 lockesnow

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 02:12 AM

Continue...

 

 

To the noobs who clicked the thread to find out wtf it means: Bakker is an epic Fantasy author currently near the conclusion of his six-volume series, the Second Apocalypse.  Five books have been published, starting with The Darkness that Comes Before.  The final book, The Unholy Consult, is completed and is being revised/awaiting publication.  In his books, Anarcane Ground is land upon which magic cannot be performed.  Turtles all the way down is something you can google, we were discussing both at the end of the last thread about Bakker's books.  The books are grim-dark fantasy of the medieval crusades variety, Bakker's characters are all Dungeons and Dragons archetype varieties (Monk (kungfu monk, no less!), Barbarian, Sorcerer etc), and he expands and elaborates this form in invariably grim-dark psychological directions (no other psychology may be explored!) all within an incredibly detailed mileau composed of really fascinating mechanics of how the world, the magic system, the religious beliefs, the societies and cultures all work.  There's lots of badassery, but little levity, and some oft ponderous but usually fascinating pontificating.

 

To all regulars who don't read kanji that's kame, the japanese word for turtle.  Happily, it even looks like two turtles stacked on top of each other.  Turtles all the way down.



#2 Goodbye World

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 06:04 AM

From the previous thread, Sci-2 said:
 

Beyond that I think he'd have reflected on the children he left in Ishual at that moment, but then again it's possible they don't even let you know who you've impregnated. (You fuck multiple partners in a dark room, ejaculating as quickly as possible, and then you leave.)

 
One thing I don't quite get is why the Dunyain continue to use surnames like 'Anasurimbor'. A crackpot would be that Kellhus and Moenghus are not really Anasurimbor. Kellhus was lied to by Moe and the rest.

Perhaps this plan was devised after Moe left Ishual for the first time and learned about the consult, sorcery, and the Mandate's Anasurimbor prophecy. They needed someone to convince the mandate that he is the prophesied Anasurimbor because it's the only way to get them to teach him the Gnosis, and Kellhus was probably the most promising of the Dunyain children, perhaps he's not even Moe's son, if Sci's theory that they don't know who they impregnate is correct then it follows that they don't know who their children really are, and that surnames shouldn't exist or at least they shouldn't be known to everyone.

This would explain how the Dunyain could let Moenghus escape without killing him in the first place, which is another thing I'm not buying.

ETA:

Bakker is an epic Fantasy author currently near the conclusion of his six-volume series, the Second Apocalypse.  Five books have been published, starting with The Darkness that Comes Before.  The final book, The Unholy Consult,


Wasn't there supposed to be a third trilogy or at least two more books after TUC?

Edited by Relue's Ytitnedi, 30 November 2013 - 06:20 AM.


#3 Borque

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:11 AM

From the previous thread, Sci-2 said:
 
 
One thing I don't quite get is why the Dunyain continue to use surnames like 'Anasurimbor'. A crackpot would be that Kellhus and Moenghus are not really Anasurimbor. Kellhus was lied to by Moe and the rest.

Maybe they are all called Anasûrimbor. Maybe Anasûrimbor has come to mean something like "Mister" in Ishual?

Wasn't there supposed to be a third trilogy or at least two more books after TUC?

Yes, there seems to be a possible duo-/trilogy after TUC, though the TUC supposedly will wrap things up more thoroughly than TTT wrapped up PoN.

#4 unJon

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:22 AM

Awesome thread title.

#5 sologdin

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:36 AM

it'd be kickass if consult rolls out AI quadruped chorae to fight in volume VI.

#6 Sci-2

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:45 AM

On chorae protecting clothing and horses - they are weapons made for battle so would[n't] the Aporetics inscribe them in such a way as to protect steeds and clothing?

 

Similarly, I think magical fire is bruising the onta via the heat it produces. So chorae should be able to prevent said heat from damaging their bearers.


Edited by Sci-2, 30 November 2013 - 12:14 PM.


#7 Triskan

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:58 AM

lol - I had to look up the expression, but I most certainly approve. 

 

 

Is there still sin if the entire ground is an anarcane turtle?



#8 Rhom

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 12:27 PM

lol - I had to look up the expression, but I most certainly approve.


I did as well. Good thread title.

#9 Sci-2

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 12:33 PM

he expands and elaborates this form in invariably grim-dark psychological directions (no other psychology may be explored!)

 

You don't think the Mimara-Akka relationship is ultimately a positive one?



#10 Francis Buck

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 02:52 PM

The Emissary extended a sallow hand...

Which the Aspect-Emperor clasped in a firm, human grip. For a heartbeat, it seemed that whole worlds, let alone the shadowy confines of the Eleven Pole Chamber, dangled from their grasp. Sun and moon. Man and Nonman. The clasp broke with the gliding of fingers. 

"What did you see in the Outside?" Nin'sariccas asked with what seemed genuine curiosity. "What did you find?". 

"Turtles...turtles all the way down."

A grim nod. "We worship the spaces between the turtles."


Edited by Francis Buck, 30 November 2013 - 11:25 PM.


#11 Social Justice Darkstar

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 03:25 PM

"And that is why the turtles damn you".
A firm nod. "And that is why the turtles damn us. "

#12 Triskan

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 03:43 PM

"And that is why the turtles damn you".
A firm nod. "And that is why the turtles damn us. "

 

"The Truth my brothers could not bear."



#13 Borque

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:30 PM

Awesome.

#14 lockesnow

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:18 PM

Amazing.

 

ya know, back in the day, when playing super mario bros, on level 3-1 (or was it 3-2?) you could do 'turtle tipping' which was a way to rack up tons of lives.  It only counted to 99, so when you got to 100 and up, it started using a kanji character to preface it.  That's why we have a random kame character in the thread title.  we ran out of numbers.  Also, turtle tipping, turtles all the way down. 



#15 Francis Buck

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:28 PM

And they said we had nothing left to talk about.



#16 Sci-2

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:41 PM

 

A grim nod. "We worship the spaces between the turtles."

 

 

Lol.

 

Everyone's posts were good, but that line is killer.



#17 Callan S.

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 12:16 AM

This would explain how the Dunyain could let Moenghus escape without killing him in the first place, which is another thing I'm not buying.

He didn't escape, he went out scouting for sranc incursions, which is a small time regular issue for them.

 

I had wondered about his 'exile', but I realise it could simply be code for 'Well, um, he never came back...but yeah, he didn't decide to not come back/dump us, we totally exiled/dumped him! Yeah, we decided that, because Dunyain!'

 

He scouted, encountered some sort of factor both himself and Isual did not anticipate, and never came back.

 

Amazing.

 

ya know, back in the day, when playing super mario bros, on level 3-1 (or was it 3-2?) you could do 'turtle tipping' which was a way to rack up tons of lives.  It only counted to 99, so when you got to 100 and up, it started using a kanji character to preface it.  That's why we have a random kame character in the thread title.  we ran out of numbers.  Also, turtle tipping, turtles all the way down. 

 

When you tip them, do they come spiraling down?
 



#18 Goodbye World

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 01:03 AM

He didn't escape, he went out scouting for sranc incursions, which is a small time regular issue for them.
 
I had wondered about his 'exile', but I realise it could simply be code for 'Well, um, he never came back...but yeah, he didn't decide to not come back/dump us, we totally exiled/dumped him! Yeah, we decided that, because Dunyain!'


Yeah, I was talking about the exile. He comes back and they don't let him in (this is Kellhus's pov IIRC), which is something that I don't buy because they would have killed him right there. So another explanation is that after he came back from scouting the sranc, whoever runs the place sent him out to find the consult and told the rest that they had exiled him.



#19 Spooky Scary Jurble

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 01:27 AM

 

Lol.

 

Everyone's posts were good, but that line is killer.

 

 

Dunno, I think in context, the truth my brothers could not bear was more hilarious.



#20 lockesnow

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 02:07 AM

Yeah, I was talking about the exile. He comes back and they don't let him in (this is Kellhus's pov IIRC), which is something that I don't buy because they would have killed him right there. So another explanation is that after he came back from scouting the sranc, whoever runs the place sent him out to find the consult and told the rest that they had exiled him.

iirc, in this chapter, we are hearing all this from Cnaiur's perspective,  then it switches mid scene to Kellhus' perspective and he thinks, "I should tell him the truth and try to deceive him that way, because he thinks everything I say is a lie."  That's when Kellhus starts really leveraging the Moenghus/father stuff on Cnaiur.  So how much of narrative Kellhus gives Cnaiur (and Leweth) is the truth?  I'm inclined to think that Leweth got more of the truth.  

 

Kellhus' first thought about Moenghus is, "I go to dwell in my father's house." Kellhus tells Leweth he is going to Moenghus to aid Moenghus in his war.  This makes sense to Leweth, because sons and fathers are natural allies, this information doesn't really lever Leweth for Kellhus unless it's a lie of convenience, a plausible story.

 

Kellhus tells Cnaiur he is going to Moenghus to kill Moenghus for fucking violating the sacred Dunyain culture.

Interestingly, Cnaiur also wants to kill Moenghus for fucking violating the sacred Scylvendi culture.  So what Cnaiur hears, whether or not it is the truth, is exactly what Cnaiur WANTS to hear anyway, it levers him perfectly.

 

So, we accept that Kellhus was telling the truth when the outcome is he killed Moenghus.  But what if this was another situation like the prophecy to Saubon of 'the shrial knights must be punished.' ?

 

In any event, Kellhus doesn't decide to kill Moenghus because of any rumination we are aware of via the probability trance, he decides to kill his father because a twig lodges itself into his sandal and he thinks this is incredibly meaningful. (and still we doubt, the statement "and Kellhus went mad" !)  presumably he also scrys meaning from the shape of his feces when it falls into a twig form by happenstance.  The world conspires in the prophets shit, eh?

 

Also.  What if Kellhus mis-interpreted the twig (or he didn't and we readers misinterpret his reaction)?  What if not killing Moenghus was the path of the green/live twig and killing Moenghus was the path of the dead twig?  What if it is crazy to talk about the proper meaning of a twig?  Or what if Kellhus' conclusion (remember he speaks to the No God on the Circumfix and claims to Moenghus that the no god speaks to him) of "No, they are not equal" is actually Kellhus choosing the dead twig.  

 

We readers just willfully misinterpret Kellhus because we are primed by genre and history to expect him to take the path of saving the world.  But what if Kellhus takes the dead twig because killing off the world, letting humanity become extinct is the only way to end the cycle of damnation.  

 

The only end game is xenocide, it's the merciful death, quick euthanasia, it'll only take him twenty some years.  Because Kellhus weighs the value of making humanity extinct and finds that that will reduce human suffering more because it won't subject infinite future generations to damnation as well.  

 

Making humanity extinct puts a finite end to previously infinite suffering.  They are not equal, the dead twig is the better outcome.  He's searching for meaninglessness in a meaningful world.

 

:D


Edited by lockesnow, 01 December 2013 - 02:09 AM.