Jon's mistakes - and why he shouldn't be King

[RK Rajagopal]

This is a thread about the mistakes Jon Snow might have made, during his time as a man of the Night's watch, and later its Lord Commander. Personally, 2 mistakes stand out for me:

1. Refusing to execute the old man captured by the wildlings: The old man was a dead man, no matter what. If Jon didn't kill him, someone else would, and would have probably killed Jon too. If he doesn't survive / gain their trust, he will be unable to warn Castle Black about the attack from the South. Jon thinks through all of this, and yet chooses not to. In this instance, GRRM manages to save Jon through a surprise attack from Summer - kind of a weak plot structure in my opinion. Jon manages to survive, and warn Castle Black, and also has a clean conscience. Only, what if Summer hadn't intervened? What if Bran wasn't at the right spot at the right time? Jon didn't expect help, so it wasn't part of his decision-making process. This, I feel, is a blunder - had he not made it to Castle Black, they would ave lost hundreds in the surprise attack from the South, and possibly fallen entirely.

2. Hardhome: This is Jon's biggest blunder. True, thousands are dying at Hardhome, but Jon risks many more lives to have a small chance of saving them. He himself admits in his thoughts that the logistics would be extremely challenging. The ships he sent are all destroyed, and the Wildlings are mistrustful, starving and eating their own dead. In addition, there are dead things in the woods and the sea. To save them Jon wants to have a ranging, and asks Tormund to take as many men as required. He would require food and haul animals, and plans to shepherd thousands back inside the wall at a pace no more than a crawl. All this at a time when he himself plans to go south to war with the Boltons. Who would man the Wall? What if the weeper attacks? What about the whitewalkers?

There are more actions Jon did which are ambiguous, like arranging the wedding of Alys Karstark, and sending Mance to Winterfell, but the two listed on top are the biggest blunders he's committed, in my opinion.

I think that Jon tries to save everyone in danger, and sometimes loses perspective of the bigger picture - a quality I wouldn't like to see in a leader. I see some people are rooting for him to be King - I personally think that this quality of his would make him a poor choice as King . He would try to save everyone in danger, no matter the cost. Kings should be more pragmatic - as Dany finds out, you cannot undo all injustice in the world. For instance, she closes the doors to a sick and starving Astapor to save Meereen - rightly so - something I doubt Jon would ever do.

What do you think?

[ckal]

Well Jon will never be king so no reason to worry about that.

[Han Snow]

^ George! How nice of you to drop by here! So tell us more what will happen in your books!?

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

^ George! How nice of you to drop by here! So tell us more what will happen in your books!?

:lol:

[Melimna]

Well Jon will never be king so no reason to worry about that.

[Iona]

For instance, she closes the doors to a sick and starving Astapor to save Meereen - rightly so - something I doubt Jon would ever do.

What do you think?

I think it's very interesting that where Dany closes doors to save people, Jon opens doors to save people. In my mind, him trying to save the wildlings that were still on the worse side of the Wall is a practical move, as those tens of thousands of people could very well come knocking at the Wall later with their blue eyes shining in the moon light. So no, I don't agree that the Hardhome rescue operation was a blunder on his side.

As to not killing that old man as the wildlings requested - would you really expect a son of Eddard Stark to behead an innocent man?

There's no excusing Jon getting involved in Mance's Arya mission, that's something I think he should have never taken part of. Or, I feel Mel should have gone forth with the plan, and told Jon afterwards, so that he would not have needed to be in such a difficult situation. But it could be very well that Mel did it on purpose.

I feel Jon's biggest mistake as a Lord Commander was to keep too much of his thoughts to himself. Yes, he was sick to death of hearing Marsh and co. never agreeing with him, but I do think he should have presented his case to others in more detail, to make his brothers understand the logic behind his decision-making.

ETA: And oh, Jon becoming a king - I don't really give a damn - if it happens, it happens. :)

[ckal]

^ George! How nice of you to drop by here! So tell us more what will happen in your books!?

Jon Targaryen becomes king.

Or does he? In fact who is Jon Targaryen?

I'll never tell.....hehehehehe

Read my next book to find out.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

For his mistakes:

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No you are wrong.

Because I am curious, even if I think I know the answer, who do you think that would be a better king than Jon?

^ George! How nice of you to drop by here! So tell us more what will happen in your books!?

:rofl:

[Minsc]

Because I am curious, even if I think I know the answer, who do you think that would be a better king than Jon?

Mace Tyrell would be even better, as least he is smart enough that he can last longer then a short while before his own men decide to kill him.

[Fanless Mace]

Every single person in this book makes bug leadership mistakes. So I guess nobody will be King or Queen, if one subscribes to the theory that only perfect people can be rulers.

In real life, can you point to more than a handful of leaders in all of mankind's history who didn't make mistakes or have moral shortcomings? Every US President makes mistakes on the way up and in office. Even Ghandi and MLK cheated on their wives, and I can't think of any leaders I respect more from the 20th Century. And both had many critics of their tactics. And both learned from their mistakes.

Who in ASOIAF would qualify if perfect decision-making is the qualification? Maybe Sam or Hot Pie...

[Dicer]

I am conflicted about Hardhome. Yes, it would be tough to pull off and Tormund would have had a tough time getting those Wildlings back to the wall. But it's Cotter pyke dammit! One of my favorite characters and I want him to survive. And he asked for help. So I sort of appreciate that Jon wanted to send him that help. I hope Pyke is still alive.

There's no excusing Jon getting involved in Mance's Arya mission, that's something I think he should have never taken part of. Or, I feel Mel should have gone forth with the plan, and told Jon afterwards, so that he would not have needed to be in such a difficult situation. But it could be very well that Mel did it on purpose.

A love for family always leads to trouble for the Starks. Cat released Jaime for her daughters, Ned lied for Sansa and Jon's love for Arya leads to his involvement with the Boltons that gets him stabbed.

[RK Rajagopal]

As to not killing that old man as the wildlings requested - would you really expect a son of Eddard Stark to behead an innocent man?

Even if not killing that one man would mean the near-certain loss of many more innocent lives?

For his mistakes:

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No you are wrong.

Because I am curious, even if I think I know the answer, who do you think that would be a better king than Jon?

:rofl:

It would be nice if you could explain why / where you think I am wrong.

FWIW, I think a practical man and just man, like Tyrion, would make a good king.

[Melimna]

Because I am curious, even if I think I know the answer, who do you think that would be a better king than Jon?

Moon Boy seems like a good choice

[Cubicz]

Although his path may seem to point towards becoming King, I think Mormont's speech to him in the first book is appropos to the end of the series: Who sits upon the iron throne matters little when dead men and worse come hunting in the night.

If anything, Jon's path leans more towards a suicide mission/ self sacrifice far north to secure the realm. Especially if he's TPTwP or AAR. Goerge clearly showed us he is not fit to "rule" in ADwD. The same could be said for Dany. I dont see either making it.

The only person learning the ins and outs of court life and intreague on some sort of path to rule is Sansa, if she ever musters up the courage to take the crown.

Bittersweet if she and her husband Tyrion may make a good team afterall :p

[Fanless Mace]

I think it would be a less thrilling book if there was some young leader who made every right decision, had 100% moral strength of character, and was the true leader in the eyes of all who behold him/her. Since we don't have such a person, we get to wonder and debate this ad nauseum. Cool!

[RK Rajagopal]

Every single person in this book makes bug leadership mistakes. So I guess nobody will be King or Queen, if one subscribes to the theory that only perfect people can be rulers.

In real life, can you point to more than a handful of leaders in all of mankind's history who didn't make mistakes or have moral shortcomings? Every US President makes mistakes on the way up and in office. Even Ghandi and MLK cheated on their wives, and I can't think of any leaders I respect more from the 20th Century. And both had many critics of their tactics. And both learned from their mistakes.

Who in ASOIAF would qualify if perfect decision-making is the qualification? Maybe Sam or Hot Pie...

True, no one is perfect. However, I think that Jon is more flawed than others. For example, I would expect Tyrion / Blackfish would try to be just and practical. To be a good king, you have to have peace - and it's hard to have peace if you're not practical.

Edit: wrote Tywin instead of Tyrion, my bad!

[Iona]

Who in ASOIAF would qualify if perfect decision-making is the qualification? Maybe Sam or Hot Pie...

Sam broke his vows, who knows if he got Gilly pregnant too! I don't care if there were no trees watching - he's not qualified! :D

Even if not killing that one man would mean the near-certain loss of many more innocent lives?

Again, I ask you - do you really expect a son of Eddard Stark to kill an innocent, even if it did mean saving other innocents?

[Fanless Mace]

True, no one is perfect. However, I think that Jon is more flawed than others. For example, I would expect Tyrion / Blackfish would try to be just and practical. To be a good king, you have to have peace - and it's hard to have peace if you're not practical.

Edit: wrote Tywin instead of Tyrion, my bad!

Well, I'm not convinced Jon will be king, but I don't think the examples you gave to start this thread negate his qualifications. First, not killing the old man show us Jon learned well from Ned, one of the most moral men we seem to have met and a great leader. Unlike Joffrey, we know Jon will rule with a fair hand. Was it risky to refuse to kill him? Yes, and sometimes a great leader must take risks to,do what is right ether than what is expedient.

As for Hardhome, I believe that will pay off big time as Jon is eventually to be respected and revered by the Wildling populous for all he has done for them. In the battled or the North, no,victory will be complete without the allegiance of the Wildlings. Again, Jon decided to do what was right rather than what was expedient or easy.

And...Jon, as with any young person, must learn from his mistakes in order to rise to greatness. Stories of perfect people are not compelling; stories of growth and rebirth are human and familiar and real.

[Iona]

True, no one is perfect. However, I think that Jon is more flawed than others. For example, I would expect Tyrion / Blackfish would try to be just and practical. To be a good king, you have to have peace - and it's hard to have peace if you're not practical.

Edit: wrote Tywin instead of Tyrion, my bad!

About Tyrion being a just and/or practical leader - I read the new Meereneese blot article today, where the writer goes deeper into Tyrion's short reign as the Hand - it gives a nice perspective on his ambitions as a ruler.

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/11/22/paying-his-debts-part-i-tyrion-in-kings-landing/

[Alayne's Shadow.]

If anything, Jon's path leans more towards a suicide mission/ self sacrifice far north to secure the realm. Especially if he's TPTwP or AAR. Goerge clearly showed us he is not fit to "rule" in ADwD. The same could be said for Dany. I dont see either making it.

The only person learning the ins and outs of court life and intrigue on some sort of path to rule is Sansa, if she ever musters up the courage to take the crown.

I agree. Jon's journey seems to point me in the opposite direction. Despite the "foreshadowing", it seems that neither him or Dany are fit to rule at the end. I'm pretty sure they'll die in ADOS.