Slaughter In Winterfell v.2

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No one knows where the will is, and no one is king until Roose is dead. Manderly is the one who is going to take down Roose, and Manderly supports Rickon.

Actually they know. Remember Lyanna's letter and I can bet that Wyman would prefer Jon over Rickon in any case. Jon is the one that could married with one of his granddaughters not Rickon. So no, no one who have at least rudimentary intelligence will ever choose a child over a tested leader who has their King's will. No one.

[Dead Wolf]

Actually they know. Remember Lyanna's letter and I can bet that Wyman would prefer Jon over Rickon in any case. Jon is the one that could married with one of his granddaughters not Rickon. So no, no one who have at least rudimentary intelligence will ever choose a child over a tested leader who has their King's will. No one.

Lyanna's letter is not evidence that the contents of Robb's will are known. The mountain clans know the Stark boys are alive, and have had plenty of time to contact people. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." Rickon's name is Stark and if Manderly really wanted Jon, he would have contacted him.

[Baelor Swyft]

Manderly may seek to be Rickon's regent, which Jon would get in the way of.

I'm hoping for Jon myself but I can't argue with the logic of the plan if that's what Manderly is planning.

[Missionary]

Actually they know. Remember Lyanna's letter and I can bet that Wyman would prefer Jon over Rickon in any case. Jon is the one that could married with one of his granddaughters not Rickon. So no, no one who have at least rudimentary intelligence will ever choose a child over a tested leader who has their King's will. No one.

The real question is whether or not Jon would choose to be king. He takes his vows very seriously so people saying that him ‘dying’ gets him out of his NW vow, would he look at it like that? Perhaps he will take up the mantle of king as he perceives it has his duty, but when Davos and Rik show up maybe he steps aside?

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Jon has the Will, Jon is the King. The end.

The will was made under the assumption Bran and Rickon were dead, and Robb needed an heir. So really Rickon's claim is better

[Addam of Hull]

Manderly may seek to be Rickon's regent, which Jon would get in the way of.

I'm hoping for Jon myself but I can't argue with the logic of the plan if that's what Manderly is planning.

He might, but they still need Jon anyway. Rickon needs an heir and he can't produce one naturally for another eight years, at the very least. Jon is the only Stark readily available besides Rickon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lyanna's letter is not evidence that the contents of Robb's will are known. The mountain clans know the Stark boys are alive, and have had plenty of time to contact people. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." Rickon's name is Stark and if Manderly really wanted Jon, he would have contacted him.

Rickon is also 5, not a King material. Do you think that the clansman were to Wall because Jon wanted to talk them? :bs: Also since Maege is with her daughters means that they had found Howland, so the will is out.

The real question is whether or not Jon would choose to be king. He takes his vows very seriously so people saying that him ‘dying’ gets him out of his NW vow, would he look at it like that? Perhaps he will take up the mantle of king as he perceives it has his duty, but when Davos and Rik show up maybe he steps aside?

A. No Wall, no NW, no vows. His duty is to help the Realm even if this costs him, bittersweet end and no Jon has the will he will not step aside, he doesn't had to. Also he will be chosen from the Lords and Rickon will continue to be the Warden of the North and Lord of WF. Also don't forget that the wildlings are south now and they follow Jon. Do you think that there is the slightest possibility that they will follow Rickon? No way.

The will was made under the assumption Bran and Rickon were dead, and Robb needed an heir. So really Rickon's claim is better

Jon has the claim. The end.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Rickon is also 5, not a King material. Do you think that the clansman were to Wall because Jon wanted to talk them? :bs: Also since Maege is with her daughters means that they had found Howland, so the will is out.

A. No Wall, no NW, no vows. His duty is to help the Realm even if this costs him, bittersweet end and no Jon has the will he will not step aside, he doesn't had to. Also he will be chosen from the Lords and Rickon will continue to be the Warden of the North and Lord of WF. Also don't forget that the wildlings are south now and they follow Jon. Do you think that there is the slightest possibility that they will follow Rickon? No way.

Jon has the claim. The end.

you know its really quite rude to brush off a comment like that without elaboration. Could you please explain why Jon has a claim over Rickon when Robb's will was made only because Rickon was "dead"? If Rickon shows up alive doesnt this invalidate the will in any case?

[Addam of Hull]

you know its really quite rude to brush off a comment like that without elaboration. Could you please explain why Jon has a claim over Rickon when Robb's will was made only because Rickon was "dead"? If Rickon shows up alive doesnt this invalidate the will in any case?

Well, the big issue is that whatever documents Robb signed and had sealed, one that legitimized Jon Snow as Jon Stark is definitely among them. Legitimization is something that Catelyn was concerned couldn't be undone. If legitimate, there is an argument to be made that Jon, as the eldest Stark male, should be the next Lord of Winterfell. Of course, there's a counter-argument that legitimized bastards should come at the end of the line and then there's the possibility that the document is ignored completely.

Realistically, it depends on the various lords of the North and what they hope to accomplish. Right now, the only pair of candidates to succeed Robb that are easily accessible are Rickon and Jon. My gut feeling is that once this business with Roose is finished and all information is shared, the various lords will conclude that they need both of them. Rickon, if made lord, needs someone as his heir and Jon's the only choice because he isn't old enough to have children. The reverse is true as well, at least until Jon -- hypothetically -- is wed and has a son.

[Dead Wolf]

Rickon is also 5, not a King material. Do you think that the clansman were to Wall because Jon wanted to talk them? :bs: Also since Maege is with her daughters means that they had found Howland, so the will is out.

A. No Wall, no NW, no vows. His duty is to help the Realm even if this costs him, bittersweet end and no Jon has the will he will not step aside, he doesn't had to. Also he will be chosen from the Lords and Rickon will continue to be the Warden of the North and Lord of WF. Also don't forget that the wildlings are south now and they follow Jon. Do you think that there is the slightest possibility that they will follow Rickon? No way.

Jon has the claim. The end.

Tommen is eight and king. The will is invalidated by Rickon's continued existence. Even if it isn't, Jon won't take it, because to him that would be stealing his brother's birthright, and he will not do that. As to the wildlings, so what? Jon won't fight Rickon, he won't take WF, and he won't leave his post. This thread is not about Jon or Rickon becoming king, it's about Roose and the chance that Manderly and th others will murder him

[Missionary]

A. No Wall, no NW, no vows. His duty is to help the Realm even if this costs him, bittersweet end and no Jon has the will he will not step aside, he doesn't had to. Also he will be chosen from the Lords and Rickon will continue to be the Warden of the North and Lord of WF. Also don't forget that the wildlings are south now and they follow Jon. Do you think that there is the slightest possibility that they will follow Rickon? No way.

Good point! I had forgotten about the impending destruction of the wall (which is necessary for the Others Invasion)

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Well, the big issue is that whatever documents Robb signed and had sealed, one that legitimized Jon Snow as Jon Stark is definitely among them. Legitimization is something that Catelyn was concerned couldn't be undone. If legitimate, there is an argument to be made that Jon, as the eldest Stark male, should be the next Lord of Winterfell. Of course, there's a counter-argument that legitimized bastards should come at the end of the line and then there's the possibility that the document is ignored completely.

Realistically, it depends on the various lords of the North and what they hope to accomplish. Right now, the only pair of candidates to succeed Robb that are easily accessible are Rickon and Jon. My gut feeling is that once this business with Roose is finished and all information is shared, the various lords will conclude that they need both of them. Rickon, if made lord, needs someone as his heir and Jon's the only choice because he isn't old enough to have children. The reverse is true as well, at least until Jon -- hypothetically -- is wed and has a son.

Thanks for the explanation :) So really it depends on the individual Lord/Lady and whatnot as to whether they consider the Will to be valid upon Rickon's re-appearance?

[Addam of Hull]

Thanks for the explanation :) So really it depends on the individual Lord/Lady and whatnot as to whether they consider the Will to be valid upon Rickon's re-appearance?

More or less, yeah. Of course, there are other possibilities as well. Sansa may end up at Winterfell before either Jon or Rickon. Really, the question of "who will end up as the Stark in Winterfell" is a complicated one that has no clear-cut answer behind it.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

More or less, yeah. Of course, there are other possibilities as well. Sansa may end up at Winterfell before either Jon or Rickon. Really, the question of "who will end up as the Stark in Winterfell" is a complicated one that has no clear-cut answer behind it.

Again many thanks!

To the OP, yes I agree tbat WF will likely become reminiscent of an abatoir when all is said and done, although I dont think Roose will be as segregated as you do. I think some will aid him from Fear, intimidation, etc. And i also think Roose will have taken precautions against this and it is Ramsay who will suffer most

[Dead Wolf]

Again many thanks!

To the OP, yes I agree tbat WF will likely become reminiscent of an abatoir when all is said and done, although I dont think Roose will be as segregated as you do. I think some will aid him from Fear, intimidation, etc. And i also think Roose will have taken precautions against this and it is Ramsay who will suffer most

Well, Roose is doomed because of the curse of Harrenhal, if for no other reason. If Lady Dustin betrays him, he will be taken utterly unawares since he is convinced of her hatred of the Starks. Ramsay will likely be burned by Stannis

[of man and wolf]

Shaggydog is hungry. I wouldnt wanna be a Bolton.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Umm... Bran is alive so neither Jon nor Rickon are the rightful Kings in the North. Bran is the rightful King in the North. If GRRM wanted him to be stuck in a cave forever, Meera and Hodor would be dead. Manderly knows both boys are alive. He just doesn't know where Bran is. Rickon won't steal his brother's birthright. Osha won't let him. We know Bran can make himself known. He did it with Jon. He did it with Theon. Bran's the true King. The true descendant of Bran the Builder. He will end up sitting on the throne of winter.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Umm... Bran is alive so neither Jon nor Rickon are the rightful Kings in the North. Bran is the rightful King in the North. If GRRM wanted him to be stuck in a cave forever, Meera and Hodor would be dead. Manderly knows both boys are alive. He just doesn't know where Bran is. Rickon won't steal his brother's birthright. Osha won't let him. We know Bran can make himself known. He did it with Jon. He did it with Theon. Bran's the true King. The true descendant of Bran the Builder. He will end up sitting on the throne of winter.

Regardless if Bran comes back from beyond the Wall, he probably cannot have children, which makes Rickon his heir, which means eventually Rickon (or his son) would be king/lord.

And what?! Why would Osha not let him "steal" his brother's birthright? She is a wildling. You really think she cares that much about the line of succession?

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Regardless if Bran comes back from beyond the Wall, he probably cannot have children, which makes Rickon his heir, which means eventually Rickon (or his son) would be king/lord.

And what?! Why would Osha not let him "steal" his brother's birthright? She is a wildling. You really think she cares that much about the line of succession?

No, I think she cares that much about Bran. Remember, he's the one she formed a bond with originally not Rickon. We have no idea if Bran's capable of having children. He's not even pubescent.

Regardless, it doesn't matter who is going to rule Winterfell in 50 years. It's about who Wyman Manderly et al. will give it to if the Boltons are defeated. When Osha or Rickon confirm Bran to be alive, he becomes the rightful King in the North. Or a quick message by Weirnet and everyone knows he's alive and well.

From the Theon spoiler chapter we know that either he or Bloodraven are already involved in the battle of ice. The ravens quork "Theon" and "Tree" over and over again. A clear sign of them being warged. My money is on Bran as Bloodraven has no interest in getting revenge on Theon Greyjoy. If he can tell Stannis to sacrifice Theon to the Weirwood, he can tell Wyman Manderly et al. that he's alive. We don't know whether or not Davos will get back with Rickon from Skagos in time. Bran doesn't have to worry about getting there.

[sertravisredbeard]

I still don't get why anyone would think Wyman Manderly, or any of the truly loyal northern lords, would reject Jon or Rickon because they're the "wrong" Stark. If either of them, or Bran eventually, shows up, they'll be happy. Does anyone think they'll immediately dismiss either one of them and say "No, Bran's the rightful leader. We're not doing anything useful for anyone unless he's here."

Either way Winterfell still needs to be cleaned out of Boltons and Freys. What they do afterward can be worried about later. Most of their goals will be the same. Stannis won't be asking anyone to follow him south to fight the remnants of the Lannisters and Tyrells. He knows where the real fight is going to be, and that fight serves the North's interests more than it does any other part of Westeros.

If Rickon is installed, he'll probably still have Osha close as an advisor, and she knows how important the upcoming War with the Others will be. If they fetch Jon from the Wall to rule as regent, he knows how important the fight is. Politics won't matter as much after Roose and the Freys are dealt with.