Quaithe's Prophecy: Darkstar-FAegon alliance

[Arya kiddin']

Hi everyone. Apologies if this has been mentioned before. :)

A good plausible theory about Darkstar being Oberyn Martell's son can be found here. Now look at Quaithe's prophecy.

“No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

There are three pairs being mentioned here - rather than Quaithe telling Dany to beware of six people, she is mentioning three pairs.

1. Kraken and Dark Flame has to be interpreted together - the best explanation is Victarion and Moqorro.
   
2. Lion and Griffin are mentioned together - again the best explanation is Tyrion and Jon Connington. They were coming together to her in the past; whether it hints at some dodgy future alliance as well (or exclusively) I'm not entirely sure of.
   
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3. Sun's son and Mummer's Dragon - This is confusing. Everyone says Sun's son is Quentyn - but see she shouldn't really be distrusting Quentyn who brought her a rather good offer. And it doesn't completes the pair either, as the best explanation for mummer's dragon has to be FAegon.
   
   So what I'm suggesting is that it hints to a possible future alliance between Darkstar (of the night, yes that one) and FAegon, if Darkstar can be taken as Sun's son - which I believe has plenty of textual evidence.
   
   As for why Darkstar and not Trystane, I believe the pair themselves have to be significant. Trystane by himself is nothing since
   
   

   
   We know from Arianne sample chapter that Doran has passed all administrative power of Dorne to Arianne. Trystane by himself is rather insignificant.
   

Food for thought certainly. Any opinions are most welcome. :)

[MoIaF]

Intrigining theory - I'll have to read the Darkstar son Oberyn before I can comment about that. However, I'll note that we once again we see the number 3 in referrence to Dany.

ETA: as for the paring of Jon C and Tyrion it's another example that Quaithe observations must be taken with a grain of salt as she is seeing the immidiate present / future which can change in an instance.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Now look at Quaith's prophecy

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the suns son and the mummers dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

[*]Sun's son and Mummer's Dragon - This is confusing. Everyone says Sun's son is Quentyn - but see she shouldn't really be distrusting Quentyn who brought her a rather good offer. And it doesn't completes the pair either, as the best explanation for mummer's dragon has to be FAegon.

All the character's in Quaithe's warning (it's not really a prophecy) are seeking to use her at the time Quaithe speaks to Dany. That doesn't mean they're bad per se. An argument could be made that her interests could be aligned with any of them. The reason Quenton & Aegon are paired is they both have Targ blood, they're both seeking to wed her, and they both want to use her dragons for fire & blood in Westeros.

[Kienn]

After Quentin died without doing anything of note I actually thought it might be dark star...

A star is a baby sun. Or a sun's son!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I still think it's Quentyn, with the two being marriage prospects as their link/why they're paired. There are valid reasons why Quaithe would tell Dany to distrust Quentyn: Quentyn is really only using Dany to further his family's agenda, or ... wait for it ... Quaithe has her own agenda and isn't necessarily looking out for Dany's interests. I mean, most of the people she tells Dany not to trust are those people on here see as her ALLIES: Tyrion especially, but also Victarion and his fleet.

[grand old duke of stark]

The Quaithe pairs are people who come to Essos (most seeking Dany), which Darkstar has not (as far as we know). And while Darkstar might be Oberyn's son, he does have the name Dayne and not Sand. Sand would not be much of a stigma in Dorne. I really think Quaithe meant Quentyn, who did come...and to Dany.

[The Mother of The Others]

Quentyn posed a real threat to her--death by incompetence. Which could have effected her as well if she'd allied with him and he'd lived long enough to mishandle other important decisions. "Stay away from Quentyn" meant don't be pulled down by attaching yourself to him because he's a drowning man in this political sea and they tend to drag rescuers down with them. That's a kind of "betrayal" too. Or a derail.

Hey if you look at it in terms of that pair of suitors potentially being in conflict with each other for Danny, Quentyn just cleared the way for Aegon to..... maybe the next Dance of Dragons will take place in Aegon's bed? Assuming the Victarion stuff plays out in wonderful clusterfuck betrayal fashion, leaving Danny unattached and looking for some comfort food when she lands in KL and meets the new ruler. Aegon poses a threat to Dany, but not because of Aegon himself. If his puppeteer can be gotten rid of, Aegon's heart may prove true? Then season the dish with Jon for that added touch of wisdom for the new Crownbunch. Also, whatever.

[Dornish Whine]

I like it.

How does Quaithe's warning interact with MMD's 'not until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east' curse? Do you now think they are unrelated? Or does MMD help predict the fate of Darkstar in the same way we assumed it predicted Quentyn's fate?

[The Mother of The Others]

I've been seeing the Mirri curse as her nasty yet poetic way of saying "You'll never get what you want! [New Targ dynasty]. It's all kinds of impossible." It wasn't specific like Quaithe who is warning about real individuals.

[Roose Seal]

I like it.

How does Quaithe's warning interact with MMD's 'not until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east' curse? Do you now think they are unrelated? Or does MMD help predict the fate of Darkstar in the same way we assumed it predicted Quentyn's fate?

MMD wasn't prophesying anything. She was just saying "when pigs fly" in a really dramatic way.

[Dornish Whine]

I've been seeing the Mirri curse as her nasty yet poetic way of saying "You'll never get what you want! [New Targ dynasty]. It's all kinds of impossible." It wasn't specific like Quaithe who is warning about real individuals.

I agree that is a valid stance. However, I think we have seen other parts of it come true in a metaphorical sense - The Dothraki Sea drying up, for example. I tend to think the mountians blowing in the wind part could be the pyramids in Mereen after the upcoming battle.. though that is just conjecture.

[Arya kiddin']

All the character's in Quaithe's warning (it's not really a prophecy) are seeking to use her at the time Quaithe speaks to Dany. That doesn't mean they're bad per se. An argument could be made that her interests could be aligned with any of them. The reason Quenton & Aegon are paired is they both have Targ blood, they're both seeking to wed her, and they both want to use her dragons for fire & blood in Westeros.

I don't think Targ blood qualifies here as a link. Quentyn's Targ blood comes from a generations old marriage, the same "may" be said about Tyrion as well. As for meaning to wed her, that is something Victarion is doing as well.

After Quentin died without doing anything of note I actually thought it might be dark star...

A star is a baby sun. Or a sun's son!

That's a very nice take on it actually.

I still think it's Quentyn, with the two being marriage prospects as their link/why they're paired. There are valid reasons why Quaithe would tell Dany to distrust Quentyn: Quentyn is really only using Dany to further his family's agenda, or ... wait for it ... Quaithe has her own agenda and isn't necessarily looking out for Dany's interests. I mean, most of the people she tells Dany not to trust are those people on here see as her ALLIES: Tyrion especially, but also Victarion and his fleet.

If marriage was the only element being involved for clubbing, Victarion would be clubbed as well. But I like the conjecture that Quaithe isn't necessarily trying to help Dany.

The Quaithe pairs are people who come to Essos (most seeking Dany), which Darkstar has not (as far as we know). And while Darkstar might be Oberyn's son, he does have the name Dayne and not Sand. Sand would not be much of a stigma in Dorne. I really think Quaithe meant Quentyn, who did come...and to Dany.

I think if it indeed means Quentyn, this must be the reason "Soon comes the pale mare, and then the others". I really like this explanation. :) But I'd still not discount Darkstar coming to her in future with his own agenda.

[Arya kiddin']

Quentyn posed a real threat to her--death by incompetence. Which could have effected her as well if she'd allied with him and he'd lived long enough to mishandle other important decisions. "Stay away from Quentyn" meant don't be pulled down by attaching yourself to him because he's a drowning man in this political sea and they tend to drag rescuers down with them. That's a kind of "betrayal" too. Or a derail.

Hey if you look at it in terms of that pair of suitors potentially being in conflict with each other for Danny, Quentyn just cleared the way for Aegon to..... maybe the next Dance of Dragons will take place in Aegon's bed? Assuming the Victarion stuff plays out in wonderful clusterfuck betrayal fashion, leaving Danny unattached and looking for some comfort food when she lands in KL and meets the new ruler. Aegon poses a threat to Dany, but not because of Aegon himself. If his puppeteer can be gotten rid of, Aegon's heart may prove true? Then season the dish with Jon for that added touch of wisdom for the new Crownbunch. Also, whatever.

Death by incompetence - :lmao: Interesting stance anyway. But I'd heavily disagree with the second paragraph you've written, which I do beleieve even you're not serious about. ;)

I like it.

How does Quaithe's warning interact with MMD's 'not until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east' curse? Do you now think they are unrelated? Or does MMD help predict the fate of Darkstar in the same way we assumed it predicted Quentyn's fate?

Actually I am inclined to believe Dany will bear a living child again, and those comments are actual prophecy rather than a fancy "never". So while Quentyn's Death might be a part of MMD's prophecy, Darkstar's may not be, I don't see him coming to Essos anyhow.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Tyrion is connected to the Targaryens, his family, both by blood and marriage, doomed them. Griff served the Targaryens. Neither did much during the war but are vital after it. Neither have dragon blood. That's why they are paired together.

[Arya kiddin']

Tyrion is connected to the Targaryens, his family, both by blood and marriage, doomed them. Griff served the Targaryens. Neither did much during the war but are vital after it. Neither have dragon blood. That's why they are paired together.

You know, quite frankly speaking, when Quaithe says "coming" and clubs two people as a pair, and we see two pairs actually coming to her in pairs at some point, I'm inclined to believe the third would be too. This is a better explanation for this clubbing than say a shared lineage or hidden self-serving motives (which are pretty dodgy for pretty much everyone in the series anyway). But that of course is my opinion only.

[Dornish Whine]

Actually I am inclined to believe Dany will bear a living child again, and those comments are actual prophecy rather than a fancy "never". So while Quentyn's Death might be a part of MMD's prophecy, Darkstar's may not be, I don't see him coming to Essos anyhow.

You know, quite frankly speaking, when Quaithe says "coming" and clubs two people as a pair, and we see two pairs actually coming to her in pairs at some point, I'm inclined to believe the third would be too...

So is Darkstar coming to Essos or not? ;)

He needn't of course, as he and Aegon may come to Dany in Westeros. However if Dorne (Doran) declares for Aegon then getting the two of them (Darkstar and Aegon) together as allies may be tricky. Can't wait for the Balon/Hotah/Darkstar show down...

[Welease Woger]

I was just starting to type "No way, dude, the sun's son is Quentyn, duh!", but then I had an insight: Why would Quentyn be referred to as the sun's son? Because GRRM really likes alliteration?

Quentyn is a Martell, he is a sun by all rights. No one ever called Arya "the wolf's daughter", only wolf, and she is even younger than Quentyn. So why this emphasis on being a son? Maybe because the so called sun's son is not a sun himself, he is a bastard. That could fit Darkstar if he is indeed Oberyn's son...

[sarah.jenice]

This post really got me thinking this morning because I had always just dismissed the sun's son as Quentyn.

The way the prophecy has always sounded to me is that Quaithe is seeing things that are happening at the time or in the near future.

I had remembered Quaithe gives this prophecy very early in Dance, but I just checked and it is presented in the second Dany chapter. Tyrion has met with Griff prior to this chapter so lion and griffin are together and planning to come to Dany at that time, but Moqorro won't even meet Tyrion until closer to the end of the book let alone get on his way to Dany with Victarian so I'm willing to believe that the sun's son and the mummer's dragon could meet and head toward Dany at a much later time.

Now that I'm willing to agree that the sun's son might not be Quentyn, I'd like to offer an alternative to your OP theory. Another Martell is on their way to meet FAegon at this very moment and could very well form and alliance with him and meet Dany together - Arrianne. If the PTWP can be a girl, perhaps the sun's son can be too. Arrianne will inherit Dorne just like a son and she is definitely more of a son to her father than Quentyn was.

One thing that's weird though is that the prophecy reads to make it sound like they will all be coming to Dany in Meereen but since we know FAegon is already in Westeros, any meeting she has with him won't happen until she gets to Westeros.

What Quaithe actually says about all of these characters is really vague. She says, "Trust none of them. Remember the Undying." The only reason I could think she would bring up the Undying is to try to remind Dany of what the Undying were really doing to her - tricking her into complacency and sucking away her life force thus gaining her power.

[Arya kiddin']

This post really got me thinking this morning because I had always just dismissed the sun's son as Quentyn.

The way the prophecy has always sounded to me is that Quaithe is seeing things that are happening at the time or in the near future.

I had remembered Quaithe gives this prophecy very early in Dance, but I just checked and it is presented in the second Dany chapter. Tyrion has met with Griff prior to this chapter so lion and griffin are together and planning to come to Dany at that time, but Moqorro won't even meet Tyrion until closer to the end of the book let alone get on his way to Dany with Victarian so I'm willing to believe that the sun's son and the mummer's dragon could meet and head toward Dany at a much later time.

Now that I'm willing to agree that the sun's son might not be Quentyn, I'd like to offer an alternative to your OP theory. Another Martell is on their way to meet FAegon at this very moment and could very well form and alliance with him and meet Dany together - Arrianne. If the PTWP can be a girl, perhaps the sun's son can be too. Arrianne will inherit Dorne just like a son and she is definitely more of a son to her father than Quentyn was.

One thing that's weird though is that the prophecy reads to make it sound like they will all be coming to Dany in Meereen but since we know FAegon is already in Westeros, any meeting she has with him won't happen until she gets to Westeros.

What Quaithe actually says about all of these characters is really vague. She says, "Trust none of them. Remember the Undying." The only reason I could think she would bring up the Undying is to try to remind Dany of what the Undying were really doing to her - tricking her into complacency and sucking away her life force thus gaining her power.

Hmm. In my opinion sun's son will be male. What Aemon says is a "dragon" is not male or female, then when he extrapolates this to fit TPtwP theory as well, he does so knowing the full version of the prophecy. We don't know that. So it is better if we don't apply the same rule here. :)

As for remember the undying part- what I believe is that Quaithe is trying to tell her that the Undying are not done with her yet, they may try to exercise revenge in future.

[Good King Daemon]

It's interesting and I really like the theory that Darkstar is Oberyn's son but I really don't see him joining up with fAegon. At the moment fAegon is hoping for Dorne's support and I doubt Arrianne will be declaring for him if he starts working with Darkstar.