Your assessments - how well does ASOIAF translate?

[Mr Fixit]

As I said, I am a translator. And in this case, I would "fiddle with personal names" too. Of course, I would be very careful to catch the meaning as close as possible. But there is no way that any translator worth his salt would leave Jon Snow to be Jon Snow. In ASOIAF, last names matter and contain a meaning that is lost, along with the atmosphere, when the translator decides to stick to the text. I think the decision our translator made was a good one - he translated the last names that were tied to a place, like Hornwood, for one. When the last name was just a last name, he left it be.

I already noted that in the Serbian translation bastard names are translated, as they are all descriptive and tied to various regions' dominant trait, so I'm with you there. However, I'm not in favor of partial translation of House names. So Greyjoy, for instance, becomes Graufreud, but Tyrell or Arryn or Stark (I presume) remain as they were. Granted, I'm no native German speaker, though I speak it pretty well, but doesn't that present a weird dichotomy when some names are obviously English-sounding while others are suddenly German-sounding? It can imply cultural difference when there may be none. If the goal is to preserve reading comprehension, a viable alternative would to be make a footnote that explains the meaning of words.

[Bruce Wayne]

I like the Brazilian translation, there are few names that change

Gilly to Goiva, the name of the flower in portuguese

Robert Strong to Robert Forte

Reek to Fedor, and the rhymes are really close to the originals

Nicknames and names that mean something are usually translate like Littlefinger - Mindinho, Leaf - Folha

The names of the bastards are in english, the name of the Houses don't change, the name of the cities or castles are usually translated.

[Anath]

If the goal is to preserve reading comprehension, a viable alternative would to be make a footnote that explains the meaning of words.

Oh yes. Footnotes. I cannot explain the aversion for footnotes I've been witnessing here for a while. They would be handy with ASOIAF names.

[Mr Fixit]

Oh yes. Footnotes. I cannot explain the aversion for footnotes I've been witnessing here for a while. They would be handy with ASOIAF names.

I worked for a while in a publishing house and, yes, there's a strong aversion to footnotes in fiction here as well.

[Ygrain]

Generally speaking, I think plain substantives are pretty rare in German as names, while it seems more natural (please confirm) in English.

The same case here (Czech) - I even recall this mentioned in one of the set books on translating at uni. E.g. the translator of LotR did a very good job with Hobbit names and toponyms, picking existing names or using them as a pattern for deriving, and the same with compounds. The ASOIAF translator, however, didn't show such skill. The translations of names are plain horrible, and inconsistent. Snow, Rivers or Stone are translated, Flowers isn't. Winterfell and Summerhall are translated as word-for-word compounds, which is not a productive pattern of word derivation and the result sounds very unnatural.

To make things worse, in AFFC, the translator decided to go through with translating surnames, as well, and for some reason, the proofreaders didn't put a stop to it. The outcome was terrible - consistency was entirely lost and the compounds were not just unnatural but adjectivised, following an existing but not that frequent pattern of surname formation. I suppose she did that to avoid the derivation of female surnames which would add another syllable to the already overly long compounds (adjectives only require a change of the ending) but it was definitely overdone.

Add to it very literal translation, often using English word order and phrases (expressions like "mouse of a man" do not exist in Czech but she didn't come up with an equivalent), and you get the picture. I got myself ADWD in English as I was unwilling to wait for the translation, and couldn't be bothered to buy it when it was finally released, and the same goes for TWOW and DOS - seeing here on the forums how much has been lost in the translation, it would be a waste of money.

[Minisa]

The things you're describing, they are the marks of too big a push to finish as soon as possible, so not enough time for details...

This seems to be very true. The first version of the translation was done when the books first came out. This translation kept all the English names. When the HBO show came out in 2011 and the hype came with it, they re-released the books with new names to make it more suitable for the wider audience.

But I don't think that they did anyone any good with that. Readers of the original translation were understandably upset since ADWD is only available in the new translation. And those non-English speaking readers who should profit from the new translation get stuff like Roose which sounds like a female name or a flower but with a long O... Doesn't sound like a character one should take seriously. Just like Littlefinger as Pinky.

Which languages do you translate? And how long have you been a translator for? If you don't mind me asking.

[Iona]

Some words like "feast" (=βορά) were given a translation of a rarely used word, which was, however, commonplace in former (ancient!) years.

Oh, I love this bit of information. I mentioned in the OP that I was dreaming of finally doing my master's thesis, using ASOIAF as material. I've been meaning to study the translation of archaisms, the old words that were once used but have now became out-dated and no longer appear in modern texts.

I considered using Poe's works or some book by Dickens, but ASOIAF would be perfect in the sense that it is a modern piece of literature with archaisms specifically used to create a certain "mood". Therefore I assume that some archaisms should also appear in the translation as well.

[Matoro]

The same case here (Czech) - I even recall this mentioned in one of the set books on translating at uni. E.g. the translator of LotR did a very good job with Hobbit names and toponyms, picking existing names or using them as a pattern for deriving, and the same with compounds. The ASOIAF translator, however, didn't show such skill. The translations of names are plain horrible, and inconsistent. Snow, Rivers or Stone are translated, Flowers isn't. Winterfell and Summerhall are translated as word-for-word compounds, which is not a productive pattern of word derivation and the result sounds very unnatural.

I've noticed same thing in finnish translation - there was too much word-for-word translations. It could have been translated better, for example finnish translations for Tolkien's books are awesome. We even have two different translations with different way to translate things - for example, Jon Snow's surname is translated word-for-word "snow" in the other, and in the other it's "snow drift".

[Minisa]

I already noted that in the Serbian translation bastard names are translated, as they are all descriptive and tied to various regions' dominant trait, so I'm with you there. However, I'm not in favor of partial translation of House names. So Greyjoy, for instance, becomes Graufreud, but Tyrell or Arryn or Stark (I presume) remain as they were. Granted, I'm no native German speaker, though I speak it pretty well, but doesn't that present a weird dichotomy when some names are obviously English-sounding while others are suddenly German-sounding? It can imply cultural difference when there may be none. If the goal is to preserve reading comprehension, a viable alternative would to be make a footnote that explains the meaning of words.

Tyrell isn't too English-sounding, when pronounced Tee-rell, which is the way one would probably pronounce it in German. Tully and Stark are quite common German surnames, I think, but Arryn and Baratheon sound very exotic compared to Graufreud.

As I said the problem isn't the fact that they wanted to translate the names, the problem is the inconsistency.

[Iona]

I've noticed same thing in finnish translation - there was too much word-for-word translations. It could have been translated better, for example finnish translations for Tolkien's books are awesome. We even have two different translations with different way to translate things - for example, Jon Snow's surname is translated word-for-word "snow" in the other, and in the other it's "snow drift".

I feel that the Finnish translator probably wasn't the most experienced one. I noted in my OP that the woman behind translating ASOIAF into Finnish was declined by some publishing houses when she offered her translation to them, and decided to publish it on her own.

Although, now that you've mentioned Tolkien, I seem to remember that LotR was Kersti Juva's first major translating gig, and she did an amazing job with it. Finns also have two different translations of the Hobbit, with the first one from the 70s completely changing Bilbo's name and coming up with a translation for "hobbit" that for today's reader sounds... well, a similar sounding word can be used as a derogative term for a homosexual. A new translation was published in 1985, and it's now compatible with the LotR translations.

[ductastic]

The thing is, most everybody understands the word snow here, you don't have to make it German for people to get the reference. Book translations seem very slow to make that realization.

fun fact: in the first german translation his name was jon snow. after translating the books a second time, they changed his name to john schnee. :D

[littleRickon]

No, I'd rather say that people who think of the position of "most everybody understands" don't understand that we aren't allowed to translate for "most everybody". My grandfather is one of the fans of the series and he deserves to have the books translated for him just as much as the bunch of kids who learn English at school. No one should be obliged to have basic understanding of English to enjoy the books to the max. And yes, most people here do have it. It doesn't matter. We have to work as if no one knows what "fine" means.

And your post, in fact, confirm what I wrote - you clearly agree with me that meaningful names should not be left alone. Now, the difference here is the skill of the translator and of course, the specifics of the language. I agree that mechanical translation word for word is just as bad as mechanical copying - and here experience and skills should make the difference. Here, Snow is no name at all. It's just snow with capital letter but it really looks like this isn't the case in German.

All in all, if too many people prefer to read a book, any book in English, it doesn't speak well for the translator. Normally, reading should be easier in one's own language thanks to things like structure of text, idioms, and so on.And ASOIAF would be a trial for any translation.

I hope people will keep writing here. I am very interested.

I wasn't criticizing the translator per se, just the finished product. I can very well understand that rules, time pressure and compromise lead to a product that is less than what everybody who works on it thinks is desirable (certainly true where I work). But I would question why translators have to make it easy to understand for every one. This seems doomed in the first place, as people with very low vocabulary exist and they "should also deserve" to be able to read the books, but aren't. Even in it's original, I am sure ASOIAF is not easy-to-understand by every English speaker. That's usually not an argument not to make it as artful as possible, while still keeping the majority of possible readers in. I think the same should be allowed for translations, and it seems that the movie industry has taken exactly that approach (sorry, some granddad will not knoe what "Miss Undercover" is about, but that might actually be a good thing...)

I do think that better German translations, especially of names ("Graufreud", come on, are you even trying) are possible, making them sound more natural. But still my number 1 choice would be leaving them English. Don't care if the translators or the bosses have to make that decision.

I second what everybody said about inconsistencies. Translating some names and leaving others creates weird ambiguities. Winterfell (did they leave that in the German version? never read it) would mean Winter's Fur, if you take it as a German word, and there would be no way of deciding for the reader if it was Winterfell or if it was actually Winter's Fur in the original version...

[franko99]

Is spanish Bastard names and region/cities are translated, but I don't mind, the translation is accurate most of the times. The only "problem" I can think about, is that some of the foreshadowing and little detail GRRM like to use in the books are lost in translation, but again, is not a big deal IMO

[The Sleeper]

I skimmed through a chapter of the Greek version of ACoK while in a bookstore. I think the translator had a note at the beginning of the book, claiming that the translation was hard. Concerning names and places, some were translated close to their literal meaning and some remained untouched.

For instance: Blackwater -> Μαυροπόταμος = Blackriver.

Some words like "feast" (=βορά) were given a translation of a rarely used word, which was, however, commonplace in former (ancient!) years.

Some of my friends didn't read the English version, but were satisfied with the translation.

Are you greek?

That's pretty much what I did too. I was looking for how they translated "direwolf".

The problem with the names is consistency. Some translate really well and convey the sense of familiarity they do in english, whlie others would be awkward and others would not translate at all. Blackwater translates well, (though because it is Blackwater Rush, I would have gone for Μαυροχείμαρος), the Trident with its teath translate well, too, but then you'd have a river called Mander right next to them. Strom's End is another issue. It is short, catchy and evocative and speaks about the history of the place and why it is a formiddable castle. Howevere greek people reading "Θυελλοθραύστης" would think it is a fixture on a port. The same applies to names you can translate Strong but you can't translate Robert. One could try to work it as part of the First Man/Andals cultural differences and nomenclature, but it is impossible to be consistent with the original. Worse, they are like the butterfly effect in that they can force you to take greater liberties with the text or lead to outright dead ends. Not that leaving them in the english is much better, as they it can make entire passages meanignless in the translation when Martin plays with the meaning of the names.

Archaisms would be good for ASoIaF. It conveys the pseudo-Medieval feel Martin tries to infuse in his books.

I worked for a while in a publishing house and, yes, there's a strong aversion to footnotes in fiction here as well.

Oh yes, footnotes are the mark of failure. Sitll, in ASoIaF they might be the only way to go, though they wouldn't solve everything either.

Imagine you are reading Cortney Penrose's retort: "Bring on your storm my lord and recall if you will the name of this castle"(I might be paraphrasing) and you have to resort ot a footnote to understand this beautiful phrase.

[Brother Seamus]

Funny. I have an American acquaintance whose last name is "Snee", obviously from German. Who knows, might have been shortened from "Sneeberger" or something when his ancestors immigrated.

[Brother Seamus]

A few comments. I'm an American with a great interest in foreign languages.

1. I was looking at a French ASOIAF site recently, and learned that "direwolf" had been translated with the French term for a "werewolf." Seems like a screw up to me. Especially, since the term "direwolf" is an actual, albeit extinct, animal. Perhaps there's no word in French (other than the latin genus-species) for the extinct animal?

2. A poster above noted the English archaisms and specialized jargon in the original versions. I hope most of the posters who are non-native English speakers will appreciate this. I learned a lot of vocabulary from asoaif (and I am a 50 year old lawyer, and pretty well-read, especially in history). For example, I knew almost nothing of the jargon of heraldry (e.g. chequy, bend sinister, lions rampant), and many horse, castle, weaponry, and armor terms (e.g. garron, palfrey) were new to me. These terms add a lot of atmosphere to the novels and learning new vocabulary greatly added to the pleasure of reading for me.

It occurs to me that European languages that have words from the same period for the same or similar things, because they had a culture roughly similar to England's in the high middle ages (e.g. French, German, Spanish and Italian, esp. French) would have a great advantage when it came time to translate. I'm guessing these languages have words fro these same things, that have roughly the same archaic or at least specialized feel as the English terms.

3. In the same vein, some non-native English speakers may not pick up on the somewhat "oldy englishy" tone evoked by the syntax, the use of spelling to depict british-y accents in dialogue, and similar tricks. Overdone, this can be a horrid fairy-tale like cliché, and really annoying. I think GRRM really does a great job to evoke a kind of vaguely archaic british speech without overdoing it. To my taste, it's pretty subtle. I'm wondering what our Brit friends think? I notice a lot of the forum's posters are brits, so I'm guessing asoiaf is pretty popular in the UK, so I'm guessing this aspect of GRRM's writing isn't off-putting to brits.

[Lummel]

...Hmm, do we know if GRRM is one of those authors who consult their translators? Some writers like to keep in touch to help and make sure the translator can do a sterling job. I don't think Martin is giving personal consultations, but perhaps ASOIAF translators get some kind of a fact sheet on things they need to keep in mind?

Try and contact the poster Lord Varys if he is around. I think he has translated at least some or part of GRRM into German iirc. I think there were a couple of other translators on the forum too, but I don't remember their names, sorry.

[Ray D. Targaryen]

Is spanish Bastard names and region/cities are translated, but I don't mind, the translation is accurate most of the times. The only "problem" I can think about, is that some of the foreshadowing and little detail GRRM like to use in the books are lost in translation, but again, is not a big deal IMO

The Spanish translation that I've read kept mostly of names untranslated. Besides the translation of Reek into "Hediondo" I found the translations very good.

[Anath]

I wasn't criticizing the translator per se, just the finished product. I can very well understand that rules, time pressure and compromise lead to a product that is less than what everybody who works on it thinks is desirable (certainly true where I work). But I would question why translators have to make it easy to understand for every one. This seems doomed in the first place, as people with very low vocabulary exist and they "should also deserve" to be able to read the books, but aren't. Even in it's original, I am sure ASOIAF is not easy-to-understand by every English speaker. That's usually not an argument not to make it as artful as possible, while still keeping the majority of possible readers in.

But I wasn't talking about people with poor vocabularies. I was talking about people who just don't speak English. Are you really suggesting that they are illiterate? Please.

If you read my first post, you'll see that I am all for artful translation. Only, in the example I gave it wouldn't be leaving Cersei's name transcribed, it would be changing the first letter to something that preserves the reference to Circe. Which the translator did, attracting the rage of readers who were so proud of their English that they didn't realize that they had huge gaps in their general knowledge. It's the same with names - leaving them in English should be the last possible option. It is not equal to translating them mechanically.

It seems that you don't make any difference between something that you don't like and a bad translation. You might want to leave the names in English but if someone decides to translate them, it isn't a wrong decision by itself. The problem is when the decision is implemented in a way that is not adequate.

You are the first reader I encounter who has set the bar so low - leaving everything in English would be an artful translation. It isn't. It's laziness. It's lack of skill. It's up to each individual translator in each language to find the artful translation. Leaving it all in English is the easy way out.

Inconsistencies are the bane of every translator existence. Choose a strategy and keep to it!

And yes, in ASOIAF footnotes would be handy. In fact, I haven't seen any people complaining of too many footnotes in my translations. Usually, people are pleased that someone did the research for them.

Minisa, I translate fiction and sometimes non-fiction from English to Bulgarian. I've been a translator for 7 years and 7 days. I have worked on 60 or 70 books already. And I can say that I don't feel ready to take a project like ASOIAF translation without making sure that I have an extremely long term that, of course, no one will be willing to give me.

The thing is, 7 years ago I would have taken it and not doubt for a moment that I would succeed, much like the translator OP was talking about. You don't know what you don't know...

I can't believe they changed the names halfway. Terribly unprofessional. It simply isn't done. Period.

[Adara]

Try and contact the poster Lord Varys if he is around. I think he has translated at least some or part of GRRM into German iirc. I think there were a couple of other translators on the forum too, but I don't remember their names, sorry.

Perhaps we should ask him , why the Lannisters became Lennisters... is there any reason at all?! Snow, Rivers, Flowers, Hill, Stone. We're not that stupid, thanks for translating anyway. :mellow:

There are some translations that are quite alright like the reach - die Weite. Makes sense. Allusions and puns are hard to translate.

But - when Brienne visited the Quiet Island, did the gravedigger really scratch his own ear instead of Dog's?

Minor things perhaps.

But german readers do spend a lot of time checking the Wiki trying to find out who's who. Tormunds member? What? Who's that? :dunno: Oh look, a quote... oh. I see.

Wiki-guys, you rock. Good job. :thumbsup: