Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

[Bastetcat]

I just logged in the blog to tell you my theories.

I think we don’t see clearly about Jon’s place in the books, and about his stabbing as well.

I do believe that Jon is the balance. Between Ice and Fire. The night king (or something like that) is Bran. He is at the north. Also the guide who helped them reach the destination is a dead man, who sad something alike „You wake me” (You can correct me, a read the books only once, and not in English)
Bran is the ice (Stark). Dany is fire (Targaryen). And the balance is Jon Snow (Stark+Targaryen) Jon will make peace.

I also think that we are mistaken about Jon’s stabbing. Who stabbed Jon exactly?
Every time Mel sees someone die - they die because OF Melisandre. She have made it happen!!!
We even see that Bowan Marsh cried. And Jon have frozen by an unknown force (magic). Magic killed him (tryed to kill him), like Renly and the other dude in some castle (again you can correct me.)

So as I see it:
- Mel sees something in the fire.
- She makes it happen, the way SHE think it means.
- Can say: “I have told you, aren’t I?”, "NOW you will trust me."

So I think in that context Mel is really dangerous. Because she works with only half of the information’s, and make mistake’s all the time. She doesn’t care if her doing cause death, because she thinks she has the right to do everything she sees, and the way she translate the visions.

If I am right. And the whole stabbing happened by Mel:

The death is fake just like Mance’s was. Jon had been slowed down so he isn’t able to protect himself. To make everyone believe, he died. I also wonder that someone who is at the Black Castle as long as Bowan Marsh, didn’t know how to kill a man with one stab? Like in the hearth?! Jon will be healed, behind the NW’s back.
Also it was one of the queen’s man who made the giant mad. It was not a coincidence. Mal is out of our sight, because she is doing it!
Mel wanted to rescue Jon from the NW. She knows he would never leave unless he dies. So it had to be the NW’s man to do it, by betraying him.

Or/and - it has happened because Mel needs Jon to trust her. Which didn’t happened so far. Arya Starks are promised repeatedly, and she never came. Now she "have seen" the stabbing of Jon Snow, and makes sure it happens.

(Sorry if there are mistakes, I am not native. I haven’t read all of the comments, so I don’t know if this theory have been talked before)

[Phil Kemp]

Jon isnt dead, i believe that he will die but either use Ghost in some way and or Mel to come back to life. After that he is no longer stuck to his Nights Watch vows so he will be free to go south, sort things out there, meet up with Dany, bring the full force of the seven kingdoms to the wall for a undead picnic.

[evita mgfs]

Lady in Black:

:bowdown: Thank you for attributing me as the source in your post. I actually departed the forum for nearly a year because of piracy - an unfortunate reality on forums. I was told to feel flattered. Well, I am flattered - but it sure helps to be credited with ownership. Thanks again! You are a true scholar. :cool4:

[Truthbtold]

The stewards had long ago discovered that food and meat kept longer in the icy storerooms carved from the base of the Wall . . . but prisoners did not. "You will die in here Lord Snow," Ser Alliser Thorne had said

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Jon is put into a coma by the stabbings, and Marsh mistakes a comatose Jon for a dead one and moves him to the ice cells next to the smoked meats. The red star is Ser Partek whose sigil is a star, and is a follower of the Red God. Lord Snow will die in the ice cells, and a new Jon will be reborn.

When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

"I fear no ghosts. Dragons are more powerful than ghosts."

Jon's spirit will be in Ghost while he's out, but his spirit/will is strong enough to keep him from dissipating into Ghost and remain intact.

The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell.

This might be reaching, but this could be a reference to BR helping to break Jon's shell, or his false identity as Jon Snow, Ned's son, which was used to hide his Targaryen identity to protect him just as Aegon's alias, Egg, was used to hide his true Targaryen identity. BR breaks the shell to hatch the dragon inside the egg, or uncover Jon's identity as a Targaryen.

"And he is mine [stannis] own blood."

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon.

Blood, like the way Stannis had used, is used interchangeably with family and relations. It can be taken as a clue that a king's blood, or king's relative, can wake the stone dragon. Bran is blood to kings Robb and Jon, and BR is also blood to kings, from Aegon IV to Jon. Bran and Bloodraven will wake the stone dragon.

Jon, a prince, is "killed" by his brothers, and Bran, the winged wolf, and BR will move to save him. Jon will receive a vision like Bran did during his coma. Jon will descend into the crypts in his dream, and confront his fears and go down the steps.

The mention of dreams reminded him. I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.

And why was that? Luwin peered through his tube.

It was something to do about Jon, I think. The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

When the time comes, I [Ned] will tell him myself.

He will meet an image/apparition of Ned who tells Jon the truth about his parentage, like Arthur's foster father, Sir Ector, told Arthur about his true parentage. He may even possibly meet his mother, Lyanna.

Wake dragons from stone

Still as stone[syrio]

I agree with Alia of the knife that it is a reference to Dune with "Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken"

"The sleeper must awaken" means a truth realized as well as someone having changed. Jon is in a coma after the Ides of Marsh, and waking the dragon from stone could mean Jon uncovering the truth of his heritage, that he is a Targaryen, while he is comatose or still as stone. In his coma after he wakes up he will no longer be Jon Snow or Lord Snow, but Jon Targaryen.

Snip

Maybe someone has mentioned this before, but when Loras came close to death his hair turned white. If Jon's does the same (if and when he comes back) he will look a LOT more Targ-y. I think it would be good symbolism and make him look more like ghost too.

Btw Sorry if this post stinks, 2nd post ever & on a cell.

[Daniel Cianureto Frentzen]

My theory is: If like in the show, stannis "is" dead (i didn't see the head), then nobody will protect the wall if jon snow is dead too... this make no sense, so one of them must be alive, or the game is over.

Jon will revive, don't know how... but i suspect it will be like his brother: Bran "warg" in a crow before death, jon snow "warg" in ghost before death. Body "heals", and it's done.

[adsf45ds]

This has probably been posted here but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

This has probably been posted here but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4

hahah this is awesome. when he reenacts the purple wedding that was hilarious.

[Cleo Patch]

regardless of Jon's fate anyone seeing Mel using his blood/body for a magic ritual? after all there is power in kings' blood, and I thought the show was over emphasizing the blood pool (altho that could be because he supposedly dies).

I can imagine Mel burning the body or a dying Jon only to be surprised as he disappears/wakes up without a wound or burn when the fire is gone

[kezstark]

I think Jons story will be similar to that of Fitz from the Robin Hobb books (Farseer Trilogy). His soul/consciousness will temporarily reside in Ghost until his body can be resurrected by Mel. I think he will have difficulty returning to his own body because he either can't or doesnt want to and Bran will somehow help him and show him how to get back in his own body

[Isy]

I think Jons story will be similar to that of Fitz from the Robin Hobb books (Farseer Trilogy). His soul/consciousness will temporarily reside in Ghost until his body can be resurrected by Mel. I think he will have difficulty returning to his own body because he either can't or doesnt want to and Bran will somehow help him and show him how to get back in his own body

I loved how Hobb managed to portray the difficulties of Fitz' consciousness inhabiting that of his wolf, and the "wolf" aspect taking over, and the real struggle to be returned to his body. Was beautifully written and really emphasized that it was not an "easy" death cheat. After reading, I wondered if GRRM would feel obliged to AVOID using the same mechanism, so as to avoid repeating an existing trope. I would also worry that he might not be able to convey the difficulty of the situation for Jon in the same way Hobb did for Fitz, as he works in single PoV chapters where as Hobb always writes from Fitz' PoV allowing her more space to draw out these difficulties.

[Attitude]

Lady in Black:

:bowdown: Thank you for attributing me as the source in your post. I actually departed the forum for nearly a year because of piracy - an unfortunate reality on forums. I was told to feel flattered. Well, I am flattered - but it sure helps to be credited with ownership. Thanks again! You are a true scholar. :cool4:

I loved that post! Let me reply to it!:

As I said, I really like the post and they way you look at it. It totally different from most peoples perspective on the storie (a bit similar, but also a lot different). I made my responses according to the numbers that I've added.

(1) I've never thought about the first book being the set up for the entire story. Yes the book is a set up for the events in the story (beheading of Ned starts the entire Game of Thrones), but not the way you name it. You state that the entire first book was full of hints and forshadowing about the rest of the story and you add arguments (numbers 2,3 and 4) for it to be so. And compared to other theorys with 'forshadowing from the books', I can remember your info. Probably because it was so obivous.

(2) Love these relations. Hodor vs Reek, I never thought of it that way! And I totally recall Theon saying that about Hodor (mocking him). And now he's the one who is being mocked.

(3) I don't know if I can agree on this one, even though I like it. In your interpretation I could see it as 'Jon being a freak.' He is (most likely a fake) bastard (freak), but under that skin (just like Ghost) he is as good (or even better) than the others (R+L=J).

(4) Again, great finding! This one is the one that is totally forshadowing on the FM. 'Swapping faces,' that's literally what they do. And I never figured it out. (Ps. if you have more of these, make a new topic and place all of them in there. I'd love to know about them. Or maybe I should just do a reread and figure them out myself..)

(5)+(6)What hints? Tell me?:)

(7) Since the last episode (season) of GOT on tv I actually started thinking this too. And thinking about the books again makes me wonder. He first says to Stannis that he doesn't want to get involved, but then he get's a (fake) letter and suddenly he does want to get involved? The fact you relate some 'other power' to it, but also the point others made that Bloodraven might have been influencing a lot for over 100 years, makes me wonder. Did BR/Bran influence Jon's (and the NW) decisions? And maybe even Mel's 'visions'? It's possible, but on the other hand why do it? If Jon really is the one who will save the realm from the WW, why not just let him do it? Not convinced here...

Anyway, love your post and if you have more info about the GOT set up I would love to read it! And yes, you can feel flattered!

[kezstark]

Posted Today, 01:05 PM

kezstark, on 17 Jun 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

I think Jons story will be similar to that of Fitz from the Robin Hobb books (Farseer Trilogy). His soul/consciousness will temporarily reside in Ghost until his body can be resurrected by Mel. I think he will have difficulty returning to his own body because he either can't or doesnt want to and Bran will somehow help him and show him how to get back in his own body

I loved how Hobb managed to portray the difficulties of Fitz' consciousness inhabiting that of his wolf, and the "wolf" aspect taking over, and the real struggle to be returned to his body. Was beautifully written and really emphasized that it was not an "easy" death cheat. After reading, I wondered if GRRM would feel obliged to AVOID using the same mechanism, so as to avoid repeating an existing trope. I would also worry that he might not be able to convey the difficulty of the situation for Jon in the same way Hobb did for Fitz, as he works in single PoV chapters where as Hobb always writes from Fitz' PoV allowing her more space to draw out these difficulties.

I suppose we were more used to Fitz being as one with his wolf, were as Jon is not fully aware of or hasn't quite accepted that side of himself yet. I just hope that if Jon is resurrected that it is in a way in which he is still himself as he is one of my favourite characters alongside Fitz.

[Masha]

One thing that shows season finale sort of clarified for me, while in the book - it was not clear Jon looses consciousness or dies, in the show its pretty much 100% clear that Jon Snow dies - AND does not Warg right before death.

Here the show might diverge from the books whereas in the book Jon might both Warg his consciousness into Ghost and that Melisandre revives him in the show, its going to be clear cut revival with zero warging.

However, I suspect, in both books and show, iF Jon is revived a la Lord of Light, he might become completely ruthless and revenge driven. I can definitely see him going on rampage and ruthlessly killing Thorne and Olly, and then being barely stopped by Davos and Ghost. I can definitely believe that he would turn dark there, enough so that showrunners can claim that Jon Snow is DEAD and the guy who was revived is not honorable, merciful, kind guy that he was and he may look like Jon Snow but his personality is ruthless. (Not psychotic /sociopathic like Boltons) but ruthless.

[Faint]

I think the show will simply matters as suggested directly above. Jon skin-changing into Ghost, which I think will be a component to his resurrection in the books, will be dispensed with on the show, in which they will solely focus on Melisandre's role.

[nategator]

Posted Today, 01:05 PM

kezstark, on 17 Jun 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

I loved how Hobb managed to portray the difficulties of Fitz' consciousness inhabiting that of his wolf, and the "wolf" aspect taking over, and the real struggle to be returned to his body. Was beautifully written and really emphasized that it was not an "easy" death cheat. After reading, I wondered if GRRM would feel obliged to AVOID using the same mechanism, so as to avoid repeating an existing trope. I would also worry that he might not be able to convey the difficulty of the situation for Jon in the same way Hobb did for Fitz, as he works in single PoV chapters where as Hobb always writes from Fitz' PoV allowing her more space to draw out these difficulties.

I suppose we were more used to Fitz being as one with his wolf, were as Jon is not fully aware of or hasn't quite accepted that side of himself yet. I just hope that if Jon is resurrected that it is in a way in which he is still himself as he is one of my favourite characters alongside Fitz.

This was also my biggest problem with Jon-warg-Ghost-resurrect theory. My critiques to the theory are 1) it's not creative, 2) it's redundant, and 3) it's too obvious.

First, it's not creative. it's a blatant rip off of Hobb's work. Now, of course fantasy has a rich tradition of ripping off other people's work -- the whole genre is pretty much a tradition of stealing from Tolkien to some extent or another. But GRRM has made his bones in subverting these tropes to create suspense or surprise (nerdy-hero-wins-hot-princess = Quentyn Martell, honorable-hero-defeats-calculating-villans = Ned, etc.) I doubt that GRRM will steal the plot-twist ending from another author's best trilogy to resolve one of his biggest cliffhangers. Because of the greater popularity of aSoIaF, it's going to ruin the trilogy. Plus, Hobb and GRRM are on friendly terms last I heard.

Second, it's redundant. Red priest Mel can already resurrect people without needing a complicated Jon-warg-Ghost process. Bran/Bloodraven can conceivably do the same like Coldhands. Plus, "Evil" (or for some tin-foil theorists, perhaps "Misunderstood") Jon theory would say the WW are going to resurrect Jon into their champion of Ice. All of which do not require Jon-warg-into-Ghost for resurrection.

So, that leaves the biggest counterfactual to the above. Why did GRRM place the idea of dead man warging so prominently in the prologue? My response: RED HERRING, which makes it my third criticism to the warg theory, it's too obvious. GRRM is going to solve a book's cliffhanger by putting the solution in the prologue of that same book? Sorry, I don't think GRRM gives you the answer to his puzzles that blatantly.

I do think there might be a variation, however, where warging is not the solution to Jon's resurrect but instead Jon's education, as discussed below.

Honestly I don't "know" how or if GRRM will bring back Jon. He may indeed be dead and R + L = J? is of no consequence and may never be answered. My best guess is that in the books Mel will burn Shireen (kingsblood) with her mother's consent, Jon will resurrect with all of his personality intact because kingsblood seems to make the red priests bloodmagic even more powerful, and Jon will be educated by of his parentage through Bran making him the woken stone dragon. This may or may not be a complete surprise to Mel, who thought she was getting an actual dragon or thought she was resurrecting Stannis (if she gets wind of the Pink Letter) instead of a Jon Targaryean. Perhaps Stannis will suffer a setback from either the Battle of Ice or the predicted Siege of WInterfell or some other future event and order Mel to burn Shireen in order to wake the stone dragon. The journey is not clear, but the destination is. Shireen will be burned. My guess, based on what we're learning from the books and show is that burning Shireen will be the catalyst to Jon resurrection in the books.

Maybe warging will take place when Bran is educating Jon on his parentage while Jon's soul is in limbo, although it is unnecessary as Bran could do so after Jon is resurrected. On the show, I think they'll do a variation, swapping Stannis (lol gratuitous so we cut from showing the death lol!) for Shireen or just having Mel resurrect Jon and "simplifying" the storyline for the TV audience. The reason for this edit is that the producers did not want hero Jon resurrected from the ashes of innocent Shireen.

Regardless, warging is not the "key" to resurrecting Jon, it's at best just part of the process or a complete red herring to keep the reader from prematurely predicting Shireen's death, which the show producers gleefully spoiled us book readers (turnabout is fair play I suppose).

And in tidying up loose ends, the show and actor can later say that all their proclamations that "Jon Snow is dead" and not coming back are accurate. Jon Snow is dead. Jon Targaryean, the stone dragon, Azor Ahai reborn, rightful claimant to the throne of the Andals and the First Men, has yet to be awoken.

[LordKnowNothing]

I wouldn't be disappointed if this is in fact how Jon learns of his heritage, but then we wouldn't really need to meet Howland reed would we? Except I guess to verify this. But still it ties up nicely.

[JonisHenryTudor]

.....

[JonisHenryTudor]

This has probably been posted here but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4

Hahaha yes this is great.

[king 0f the north]

heaps of really kool stuff on here really like the mel glamour charming the nw into killing jon. my take is that grrm has never killed a chacter in there own pov. eg breinne bran. jon hasnt died untill u see the body being burned or buried. now i think that mels prediction of a man then a man with a wolfs head then a man again is the prediction of jon warging into ghost for a period of time. him dreaming of being at the top of the wall in black armour with a flaming sword is him as aa reborn.i think that in lyana tomb there is a suit of rhaegar armour. if jon goes down in tho the crypt of wf i think it will be in a dream like/comad stat and he wil see ned lyana and maybe rhaegar. i think i remmber bran saying in a dream that the three eyed raven took him down there and ned was there. he was sad about jon. this would be fitting if ned finnaly told him being that it was the next time they seen eachother, he will probly du the r + l = you jon not snow but targeran. and say you need to find howleen reed so he can back it up. mel will burn sheeren to save jon maybe tellin synse that it will save stannis. jon is reborn by the burning of the body with sheeren at the same time. nw in the show i was think it could either be the kiss of life ooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrr the nights watch catch wind of what happen to sheeren and deside to burn jons body and put mell to death the same but this sacfice revives jon and aa is reborn. from there i cnt see how thy do the r +l = j tho

[Delaera]

I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai, but I do think he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, shielded all these years by Ned Stark. If he indeed survives (crosses fingers), I believe he will have a major part in the fight against the WW's and will be one of the three dragon riders.

The original prophecy repeated to Sam by Aemon Targaryen mentioned the use of the Valyrian word for "dragons", which are neither male or female. This would mean the Prince that Was Promised may also be a Princess? Daenerys fulfills the prophecy, reborn amidst salt and smoke, awaking dragons from stone on the morning the Red Comet appeared in the sky.

Also, reading some of the WoW samples...was surprised to hear Aegon may be alive? Now that would throw a monkey wrench into the whole Jon Snow aka Azor Ahai predictions!