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Was Xaro right about Dany? Was the man a slave?


Sansa_Stark

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"As it happens, when I came ashore in your sweet city, I chanced to see upon the riverbank a man who had once been a guest in my manse, a merchant who dealt in rare spices and choice wines. He was naked from the waist up, red and peeling, and seemed to be digging a hole.
Not a hole. A ditch, to bring water from the river to the fields. We mean to plant beans. The beanfields must have water.
How kind of my old friend to help with the digging. And how very unlike him. Is it possible he was given no choice in the matter? No, surely not. You have no slaves in Meereen.
Dany flushed. Your friend is being paid with food and shelter. I cannot give him back his wealth. Meereen needs beans more than it needs rare spices, and beans require water.
Would you set my dancers to digging ditches as well? Sweet queen, when he saw me, my old friend fell to his knees and begged me to buy him as a slave and take him back to Qarth.
She felt as if hed slapped her. Buy him, then."

I feel as though this argument hasn't been settled for good.

Those that argue that Xaro is correct, generally point out that the man was only paid in food and shelter and that made him a slave.

Those who argue against it, seem to think that Xaro's intelligence is what led to her being outwitted and that there is no proof he was forced.

I guess what constitutes a slave should be a defining factor, but it does seem as though Xaro has a point because she "flushed" after Xaro asks if he was given a choice.

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Whether Xaro is telling the truth or not , is completely irrelevant. "Buy him, then" proves that slavery is very much enforced in Meereen, and that Dany is either being hypocritical or delusional.


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I believe what constitutes slave labour is unwilling service - this was what I mentioned on the "atrocities" thread as well. What that man seems to be doing is a job for survival, because his home and trade was taken away from him during the sack. When I say unwilling, I don't mean whether or not he likes doing this job - it is a need for survival after all. What I mean is that he can choose not to.



The way it is presented in the text is inconclusive, yet for me the tone of the passage points to the negative - he wasn't being forced.



The fact that he asks Xaro to buy him only means he is ready to render his services to him instead. There is no reason to forced servitude continued in Meereen - that is precisely what Dany did, abolishing slavery.



Also the offer,



She felt as if hed slapped her. Buy him, then."




Sounds more like an angry rebuttal.



Notice that she says that it is ok if someone willingly wants to be slave - that is freedom she can't take away as you can't change the mindset of a people in a day. Willingly being a slave is anyway forced servitude - that is to say, willing slave is an oxymoron in itself.


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I'd say no, in this case, because he does still have the choice to walk away from Mereen and his job. He might get eaten or die of dehydration or whatever, but Dany wouldn't stop/punish him for quitting his work like Slaver X would to a slave that decides to wander out into the wild. I'm trying to think of a similar situation that would occur in Westeros, but the best I can think of is a camp follower stuck with, say, Roose's army. They can choose to leave if they want to, they'll probably freeze and die, but they won't be denied the choice.


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I'd say no, in this case, because he does still have the choice to walk away from Mereen and his job. He might get eaten or die of dehydration or whatever, but Dany wouldn't stop/punish him for quitting his work like Slaver X would to a slave that decides to wander out into the wild. I'm trying to think of a similar situation that would occur in Westeros, but the best I can think of is a camp follower stuck with, say, Roose's army. They can choose to leave if they want to, they'll probably freeze and die, but they won't be denied the choice.

Thanks You, exactly what I'm saying too.

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I'd say no, in this case, because he does still have the choice to walk away from Mereen and his job. He might get eaten or die of dehydration or whatever, but Dany wouldn't stop/punish him for quitting his work like Slaver X would to a slave that decides to wander out into the wild. I'm trying to think of a similar situation that would occur in Westeros, but the best I can think of is a camp follower stuck with, say, Roose's army. They can choose to leave if they want to, they'll probably freeze and die, but they won't be denied the choice.

I think we can safely agree on that. The man was free to leave, and officially was not a slave. He was free to leave and die, whereas with a slaver he would not be.

However Dany's "Buy him then", really puts her idea of slavery into question.

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The guy can ask Xaro just to take him. But he ask to "buy" him. He cant just walk away and needs to be bought. And it is a sell were only Daenerys profits since he is still a slave and has no use for the gold.

There is no really room for discussion.

We don't get much info on him. Could be that he's not that good of a friend with Xaro that he would expect Xaro to just take him to Qarth for nothing. And I don't think Xaro really hires people, so asking for a job in his palace is not an option either... :( I do think that the person who sells himself will benefit from the money gained, could be that this friend of Xaro has a family, which he can help by selling himself to slavery.

If the man is free, why does Dany say "buy him, then?"

Dany gave permission for people to sell themselves to slavery if they so wished, but not to sell their wives or children, so she's within her rights to tell Xaro to buy a guy if both of them wish for the transaction to take place.

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I believe what constitutes slave labour is unwilling service - this was what I mentioned on the "atrocities" thread as well. What that man seems to be doing is a job for survival, because his home and trade was taken away from him during the sack. When I say unwilling, I don't mean whether or not he likes doing this job - it is a need for survival after all. What I mean is that he can choose not to.

The way it is presented in the text is inconclusive, yet for me the tone of the passage points to the negative - he wasn't being forced.

The fact that he asks Xaro to buy him only means he is ready to render his services to him instead. There is no reason to forced servitude continued in Meereen - that is precisely what Dany did, abolishing slavery.

But is he able to leave? Somehow, a man like spice trader would be able to go to Qarth or some other place and try to restore his place. I don't think he is given much choice in the matter. Plus, I doubt Dany would allow massive abandonment of the city. Simply, he was forced to work, not asked, not forced, and the fact that man used the word "buy" implies that someone owns him, meaning that Xaro will have to buy him from someone. And that is what makes case crystal clear. Slavery is still enforced in Meereen.

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But is he able to leave? Somehow, a man like spice trader would be able to go to Qarth or some other place and try to restore his place. I don't think he is given much choice in the matter. Plus, I doubt Dany would allow massive abandonment of the city. Simply, he was forced to work, not asked, not forced, and the fact that man used the word "buy" implies that someone owns him, meaning that Xaro will have to buy him from someone. And that is what makes case crystal clear. Slavery is still enforced in Meereen.

I was thinking about this in the other thread where this matter was brought up. I think (based on the fact that he seems to have no property at all) this friend of Xaro's might have had his business taken from him during the sack, and Dany gave a blanket pardon for all crimes during that time. So I think the former spice/wine merchant might not have any realistic chances of setting up business anywhere anymore, having lost all his property. We can assume that he has no other useful profession he might try to pursue under the current situation in Meereen, so he has to do manual labor instead.

With regards to someone being able to "buy" him, it refers to him owning himself now, and Dany has made it acceptable for people to sell their own souls to the vile slavers. If Dany had a better PR office, she would have announced that if people wish to take employment with a certain person in exchange for a lifetime's salary being paid in advance, he or she is free to do so... :P

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I disagree Mladen.






But is he able to leave? Somehow, a man like spice trader would be able to go to Qarth or some other place and try to restore his place. I don't think he is given much choice in the matter. Plus, I doubt Dany would allow massive abandonment of the city.





What proof do we have for this?






Simply, he was forced to work, not asked, not forced, and the fact that man used the word "buy" implies that someone owns him, meaning that Xaro will have to buy him from someone. And that is what makes case crystal clear. Slavery is still enforced in Meereen.






He says "buy" because Dany had decreed that one can willingly sell himself in the city. And Xaro is known to have slaves. Not from someone. He is free to sell his service to anyone - no different from a sellsword.






I was thinking about this in the other thread where this matter was brought up. I think (based on the fact that he seems to have no property at all) this friend of Xaro's might have had his business taken from him during the sack, and Dany gave a blanket pardon for all crimes during that time. So I think the former spice/wine merchant might not have any realistic chances of setting up business anywhere anymore, having lost all his property. We can assume that he has no other useful profession he might try to pursue under the current situation in Meereen, so he has to do manual labor instead.



With regards to someone being able to "buy" him, it refers to him owning himself now, and Dany has made it acceptable for people to sell their own souls to the vile slavers. If Dany had a better PR office, she would have announced that if people wish to take employment with a certain person in exchange for a lifetime's salary being paid in advance, he or she is free to do so... :P





Basically this.


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He can just say to Xaro take me with you and Ill be your slave. But no, he feels he neds to be bought. Its pretty clear for me.

If he can make a little money in the process by selling himself, then he'd be a complete idiot if he just asked Xaro to take him for free. This guy might have a family he can help with the money he gets from a buyer.

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With regards to someone being able to "buy" him, it refers to him owning himself now, and Dany has made it acceptable for people to sell their own souls to the vile slavers. If Dany had a better PR office, she would have announced that if people wish to take employment with a certain person in exchange for a lifetime's salary being paid in advance, he or she is free to do so... :P

Yeah, because slavers were buying slaves from whom? There is no twist of logic here. Xaro can buy slave from another slaver. I don't see how we can actually argue this.

What proof do we have for this?

Well, Xaro leaves no doubt that the man wasn't free after all. And we know the situation in Meereen, we know what happened in Astapor and Yunkai, when freed slaves took slaves. Simply, all we know about situation in Meereen is that slavery is not abolished. We actually know that there are people holding slaves in the city, so the argument in which we pretend that Dany completely abolished slavery is ridiculous.

He says "buy" because Dany had decreed that one can willingly sell himself in the city. And Xaro is known to have slaves. Not from someone. He is free to sell his service to anyone - no different from a sellsword.

No, slaves are bought from slave traders or other slavers. It is ridiculous to think that a slave will offer to be bought by a slave master. YES, FROM SOMEONE.

It's a little sad to see people letting character bias letting their judgement to be clouded. :(

I agree, dear.., It is so sad that someone loves Dany so much that they can't see the objective situation on the field. This doesn't have anything with Dany, this has with the fact that she failed in her reforms, and we knew that before Xaro told us this story.

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If he can make a little money in the process by selling himself, then he'd be a complete idiot if he just asked Xaro to take him for free. This guy might have a family he can help with the money he gets from a buyer.

Do you think that slaves are made by buying them. No, they are taken, imprisoned and turned into slaves. If he wanted to be taken by Xaro, he could simply said "take me". He didn't. He used the word "buy" which means that someone owns him. Plain and simple.

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We don't get much info on him. Could be that he's not that good of a friend with Xaro that he would expect Xaro to just take him to Qarth for nothing. And I don't think Xaro really hires people, so asking for a job in his palace is not an option either... :( I do think that the person who sells himself will benefit from the money gained, could be that this friend of Xaro has a family, which he can help by selling himself to slavery.

Dany gave permission for people to sell themselves to slavery if they so wished, but not to sell their wives or children, so she's within her rights to tell Xaro to buy a guy if both of them wish for the transaction to take place.

Dany gives permission, but she doesn't have the right to dictate if its okay for a man to be bought or sold, yes?

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Well, Xaro leaves no doubt that the man wasn't free after all. And we know the situation in Meereen, we know what happened in Astapor and Yunkai, when freed slaves took slaves. Simply, all we know about situation in Meereen is that slavery is not abolished. We actually know that there are people holding slaves in the city, so the argument in which we pretend that Dany completely abolished slavery is ridiculous.

We know nothing of that sort, Jon Snow. Not in Meereen, in Astapor Yunkai yes, not Meereen.

I can't find the quote, but she does say anyone who wants to sell himself in the slave market beyond the city walls is free to do so, but he may not force any other person of his family.

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Yeah, because slavers were buying slaves from whom? There is no twist of logic here. Xaro can buy slave from another slaver. I don't see how we can actually argue this.

Now you lost me. I think that Dany allowing people to sell themselves into slavery was a pretty weird move considering her own feelings on the subject matter. But I do think there's a difference between people having their freedom taken from them no-questions-asked-no-choices-given, and people being offered the possibility to give up their freedom if they with to choose so.

Dany gives permission, but she doesn't have the right to dictate if its okay for a man to be bought or sold, yes?

Absolutely. I think allowing this "voluntary slavery" was stooopid. She was against slavery, so she should have stuck to her guns even if people wanted to be slaves.

With regards to people having their likes and dislikes affect their opinions. I'm pretty Dany neutral, perhaps slightly more on the negative side, I went into a discussion to cheer for Stannis but somehow I ended up defending Dany. What am I doing wrong! :D

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