Aegon is real

[Mark Antony]

Red or Black, A Dragon is A Dragon

[Chatty Duelist]

In terms of blood relatives Targaryens and Blackfyres are close. But Rhaegar's son is not the Blackfyre boy, so the debate is not moot. Simply, as Illyrio said "red or black, a dragon is a dragon", but that doesn't mean that two different persons are one.

"Black or Red a Dragon is still a Dragon."

It doesn't mean that it is Rhagar's son, but it does mean that he has the blood of the Dragon, and that's all that matters.

[Mark Antony]

Varys is a pro Targ? But it wasn't Varys who poisoned Aerys about Rhaegar?

Well it does seem likely that Rhaegar was plotting to remove Aerys and Varys did council Aerys not to open the gates for Tywin so maybe he was just doing his job

[Mladen]

"Black or Red a Dragon is still a Dragon."

It doesn't mean that it is Rhagar's son, but it does mean that he has the blood of the Dragon, and that's all that matters.

No, it doesn't. If he isn't a dragon who he claims to be, he is still fake. Plus, unlike Rhaegar's son, he has no right on IT.

[Chatty Duelist]

No, it doesn't. If he isn't a dragon who he claims to be, he is still fake. Plus, unlike Rhaegar's son, he has no right on IT.

He does actually, said boy's ancestor (if he's a Blackfyre, which i don't believe) was a legitimized bastard, introducing him into the line of succession.

And Varys's really is Pro-Targ, he urged Aerys to deny entrance to KL, and he told him Rhagar is a traitor, because let's face he actually was a traitor!

I think you're underestimating Varys, why shouldn't be able to switch two babies in the nick of time? If Gregor Clegane is among the Lannister it isn't that farfetched to believe he would annihilate the baby's head. And even Tywin doubts that the corpse is the actual Aegon.

[Fire Eater]

He does actually, said boy's ancestor (if he's a Blackfyre, which i don't believe) was a legitimized bastard, introducing him into the line of succession.

But that still means he has no right to the IT as that puts Dany ahead of him in the line of succession along with Jon. After them it is Stannis, according to the laws of inheritance. Aegon is dead last for the IT.

[Kienn]

Aegon isn't a blackfyre.

As people have said, "black or red, a dragon is a dragon." It is repeated like a dozen times throughout the books. But we know that there is a "false" dragon.

Old and young - Aemon/Jon

Bright and dark - Varys/Illyrio or Illyrio/Varys

True and False - Dany/Aegon

Aegon is a tool for two rejected dragon lines to take revenge on the "true" dragon line. If he was actually either Black or Bright they wouldn't be able to cooperate. Aegon IS the pisswater prince, just some random child with the appropriate hair color swooped up to fill a role. At best he's the child of another friend of theirs, but definitely non-dragon.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt]

He does actually, said boy's ancestor (if he's a Blackfyre, which i don't believe) was a legitimized bastard, introducing him into the line of succession.

And Varys's really is Pro-Targ, he urged Aerys to deny entrance to KL, and he told him Rhagar is a traitor, because let's face he actually was a traitor!

I think you're underestimating Varys, why shouldn't be able to switch two babies in the nick of time? If Gregor Clegane is among the Lannister it isn't that farfetched to believe he would annihilate the baby's head. And even Tywin doubts that the corpse is the actual Aegon.

The blackfyre's were likely attainted as well when Daemon rebelled, so no Blackfyre has the "right" to the throne

[Rooseman]

I really hate people who think Aegon is fake, they tell other people that 'How on earth could he be real', but can't provide the evidence. The Blackfyre's are dead, Daemon never had any female descendants, and don't think 'Oh he must of had one child that was female'. Oberyn Martell never had any males, all his 8 children are female. The Blackfyre line died when Barristan killed Maelys on the Stepstones. Aegon may be real, he may not be, i'm not gonna bring my personal opinion into this but all i'm saying is that he is NOT a Blackfyre.

Well, this settles it then. Damn, we spent all this time discussing this when we could have just asked you.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt]

Well, this settles it then. Damn, we spent all this time discussing this when we could have just asked you.

lol

[complexphoenix]

Ok, the question of whether Aegon is fake and the question of whether he's a Blackfyre are separate issues. Personally, I'm nearly certain that he's fake, for the reasons I laid out in my earlier post; but I'm not at all convinced he's a Blackfyre. He could be a Blackfyre, but I think it's more likely that he's a random child of Valyrian descent who was picked off the street. The tale of the Pisswater prince may actually incorporate elements of the truth; perhaps Varys bought baby fAegon for a jug of Arbor Gold.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

The key reason I don't believe Aegon is real is this: switching the real Aegon with a fair-haired peasant baby would only make sense if Varys knew in advance that the baby's corpse would be unrecognizable, and there's no way he could have known that. He had no way to know who would end up attacking the nursery, or what method of killing they'd use. If whoever-reached-Aegon-first put a dagger through the boy's chest or smothered him with a pillow instead of smashing his head against the wall, those who inspected the corpse would have known it wasn't Aegon. The Valyrian features of silver-gold hair and purple eyes are exetremely rare in Westeros; a baby could surely be found in Pisswater with light blond hair and blue eyes, but that's not the same. To find a really convincing fake Varys should have needed to get a Valyrian-featured baby from the Free Cities. But he claims to have got it from Pisswater.

The tale of the baby-switch reeks to me of a lie confected after-the-fact, crafted specifically to take advantage of the glimmer of uncertainty left in people's minds by the unrecognizable condition of Aegon's corpse.

As to who Young Griff really is? He could be any boy with Valyrian features who was born around the same time as Aegon. He could be anything from a Blackfyre to some Lysene whore's baby. It's upbringing and education, not birth, that makes a man act like a prince. Power is a shadow on a wall; if Varys can make enough people believe that this boy is their rightful king, his actual birth won't matter a fig.

I believe Varys knew about the wild fire plot, He expected Aegon to burn, but if he knew about wildfire plot why didn't he get all three out of dodge if he's a Targ loyalist.

[Fabio81]

as far as i'm concerned until he is proven false he is rhaegar's son

I stick to this. As a method, what is stated plainly is for real unless proven false.

Otherwise, I could say I believe Asha is a dude or the dusky woman is Euron unless they are proven they're not (not that I believe any of those crackpot theories).

[Chatty Duelist]

I believe Varys knew about the wild fire plot, He expected Aegon to burn, but if he knew about wildfire plot why didn't he get all three out of dodge if he's a Targ loyalist.

Suddenly the sense-o-meter jumped a few meters.

Because they're unimportant to him? Aegon is the only one young enough to effectively mold into the perfect prince.

Aegon burns = Charred corpse, unidentifiable.

Aegon smashed = Head exploded, unidentifiable.

Varys just got lucky that's all.

And Varys has proven very resourceful in the past.

[Mladen]

He does actually, said boy's ancestor (if he's a Blackfyre, which i don't believe) was a legitimized bastard, introducing him into the line of succession.

And Varys's really is Pro-Targ, he urged Aerys to deny entrance to KL, and he told him Rhagar is a traitor, because let's face he actually was a traitor!

I think you're underestimating Varys, why shouldn't be able to switch two babies in the nick of time? If Gregor Clegane is among the Lannister it isn't that farfetched to believe he would annihilate the baby's head. And even Tywin doubts that the corpse is the actual Aegon.

Being loyal to Aerys and being loyal to Targaryens as dynastic family are two totally different things. If he allowed Rhaegar to overthrow his father, then House Targaryen would still be ruling family.

Yes, Varys predicted the need to have a baby, that baby's head will be smashed until no one is able to recognize it... You are overestimating him. He is not all mighty.

[Chatty Duelist]

Being loyal to Aerys and being loyal to Targaryens as dynastic family are two totally different things. If he allowed Rhaegar to overthrow his father, then House Targaryen would still be ruling family.

Yes, Varys predicted the need to have a baby, that baby's head will be smashed until no one is able to recognize it... You are overestimating him. He is not all mighty.

The guy was the black cell's gaoler and nobody ever noticed (except Ned, but he's dead so no one cares.)

Also, read the post above.

If he knew about the wildfire plot, he very much also knew that it's very hard to identified a burned corpse, so there's that.

[Ser Arys Redshirt]

Personally, I was sure that Stannis + Melisandre funky voodoo was going to be the mummer's dragon. All the way up until Aegon was introduced. Then it was like, 'Yep, that's the mummer's dragon. Dany's gonna light him on fire.' After all, in AGOT, Illyrio and Varys secretly plotting in the RK was witnessed by Arya but dismissed by Ned as mummers. Foreshadowing?

[Mladen]

The guy was the black cell's gaoler and nobody ever noticed (except Ned, but he's dead so no one cares.)

Also, read the post above.

If he knew about the wildfire plot, he very much also knew that it's very hard to identified a burned corpse, so there's that.

He was an actor, passing through unnoticeable is not some superpower.

You simply are counting too much that he knew how exactly would the things turn out. Did he knew Aerys wanted to burn down the city? Probably. But that still doesn't explain why Rhaenys and Elia weren't saved, or why Elia held the fake baby while her own daughter was somewhere else.

[Chatty Duelist]

He was an actor, passing through unnoticeable is not some superpower.

You simply are counting too much that he knew how exactly would the things turn out. Did he knew Aerys wanted to burn down the city? Probably. But that still doesn't explain why Rhaenys and Elia weren't saved, or why Elia held the fake baby while her own daughter was somewhere else.

Because she didn't know that it was fake to begin with?

And Varys didn't need Elia or Rhaenys, only a prince to mold into the perfect ruler, Elia and Rhaenys are too old, and they're women (not that i'm a misogynist or something, it's just the way Westeros works.)

Also, see this:

Suddenly the sense-o-meter jumped a few meters.

Because they're unimportant to him? Aegon is the only one young enough to effectively mold into the perfect prince.

Aegon burns = Charred corpse, unidentifiable.

Aegon smashed = Head exploded, unidentifiable.

Varys just got lucky that's all.

And Varys has proven very resourceful in the past.

[Mladen]

Because she didn't know that it was fake to begin with?

And Varys didn't need Elia or Rhaenys, only a prince to mold into the perfect ruler, Elia and Rhaenys are too old, and they're women (not that i'm a misogynist or something, it's just the way Westeros works.)

She didn't recognize her own child is being switched with another baby? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

And that woman could have ensured Dorne's support and Aegon's legitimacy.