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Did Targaryens really "bring peace" to Westeros?


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#1 Seņor de la Tormenta 2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:36 PM

One thing I love about all the pre AGOT westeros material we are getting is that it shows Targaryens are not that almost godly race of wise rulers, "dragon lords" who brought peace and development to Westeros....Insted they are more of a selfish, proud family, who came with war and fire to westeros, rule poorely, and ended being a blink in westeros history. Because its a fact, to rise and fall in 250 years is nothing in westeros, were houses can track their beginings for thousands of years.
 
Just to make a brief account of their bloody rule, for their general (not all of them) either lack of hability to rule, lust of power, madness, or bloodthist....
 
"Peace Time" should include...
 
1- War of Conquest.
2- Eleven years of Faith Upraising "resulting in the deaths of  thousands in battle, slaughter and by dragonfire".
3- The Dance of Dragons. Family war, extintion of dragons.
4- Wars against Dorne.
5- Raymond Readbeard invasion. Battle of the Lake and death of Lord  Stark. The only border of the Kingdom is not well protected.
6- Blackfyre Rebelion. Again, dragonspawn making everybody kill each other.
7- A probable war between Houses Lannister and Stark against Dagon Greyjoys raids, with KL doing seamingly nothing about it.
8- Second Blackfyre rebelion.
9- War of Ninepenny Kings.
10- Dukensale
11- Roberts Rebelion....
 
So, there we got unlist 11 major conflicts under their paceful rule. Probably we are talking about dozens or perhaps even a million people gone by arms, under "peace".
 
We also know (briefly, as hints) that Lords keep fighting between each other in private wars not being part of "the kings peace" as Webbers against Osgreys, Breckens and Blackwoods usual wars, House Reyne and Lothson...
 
Now, best part of it, is that all this war and blood we know, is just the result of hints of this 280 years, and not nearly the full story. Probably, there are many more of them we haven heard about. Many more...
 
Nevertheless, its absolutly clear PAX TARGARYA is just a mith.
 

Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta 2, 20 December 2013 - 01:04 AM.


#2 aceluby

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:07 PM

Totally agree, it's one reason why I want the 7 kingdoms to be 7 kingdoms again.  And your list is all the major confrontations, as we know there are PLENTY of petty squabbles, even between high lords, that are not documented thoroughly.  The 7K are not better off under single rule.



#3 Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:10 PM

I think the Conquest did help lessen the number o wars but made the wars that did happen much much larger.

#4 SansaSnow

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:17 PM

It was most definitively not a time of peace, even though I think a few people (in-book) see it as such because of a "in the past everything was better" mentality. People just gloss over the conflicts.

I do think the 7K should split up in the end, too. I'm just not sure wether that's going to work out, people have become acostumed to the IT.



#5 C0bR

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:18 PM

Yep, totally agree. Their unity brought more bad than good.

 

And it's not like you need to be united under one banner to have peace between the countries. People here for some reason assume that the 7 kingdoms before the Targs did not nothing but war with each other 24/7. They undoubtedly did, but not on the scale and frequency some may be thinking about.


Edited by C0bR, 19 December 2013 - 05:19 PM.


#6 Mad Monkey

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:26 PM

Does anyone actually think that the Targaryens brought peace? I mean, maybe there was a brief window of time after Jaehaerys made peace with the Faith that things were peaceful, but come on -- Westeros as a continent seems bent on self-extinction. No dragons can change that. The only thing Targaryens really did was place themselves at the top of the hierarchy; they didn't alter Westeros's politics, religion, or culture and they never even claimed to try.



#7 mormont

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

I don't think we were ever told that the Targaryens were 'almost godly', etc.

I also don't think we have any evidence that the times of their reign were more prone to martial disturbance than the time before: we simply know more about the Targaryen reign (and naturally, what we know is mostly about the bits we want to read about and GRRM wants to write - the conflicts!)

It's an unwise person who draws conclusions on the basis of a sample they know to be skewed.

#8 Ser Lepus

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:31 PM

The wars we know about are:

 

Year 1 - The conquest.

Year 37 to 48 - Faith's Uprising.

Year 129-131 - Dance of Dragons.

Year 157-161 - Conquest of Dorne.

Year 195-196 - Blackfyre Rebellion.

Year 200 - Raymund Redbeard's Invasion.

Year 211 - Dagon Greyjoy's Rebellion.

Year 255-260 - War of the Ninepenny Kings.

Year 282-283 - War of the Usurper.

 

That's a total of 24 to 32 years of war out of a period of 293 years...that's not too bad for a medieval feudal society.

 

Also, it has been said that the armies deployed during the Dance of Dragons were much smaller than the ones deployed during Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings because while the Targayren had dragons there were less wars and the lords kept smaller armies.



#9 Seņor de la Tormenta 2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:02 PM

The wars we know about are:
 
Year 1 - The conquest.
Year 37 to 48 - Faith's Uprising.
Year 129-131 - Dance of Dragons.
Year 157-161 - Conquest of Dorne.
Year 195-196 - Blackfyre Rebellion.
Year 200 - Raymund Redbeard's Invasion.
Year 211 - Dagon Greyjoy's Rebellion.
Year 255-260 - War of the Ninepenny Kings.
Year 282-283 - War of the Usurper.
 
That's a total of 24 to 32 years of war out of a period of 293 years...that's not too bad for a medieval feudal society.
 
Also, it has been said that the armies deployed during the Dance of Dragons were much smaller than the ones deployed during Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings because while the Targayren had dragons there were less wars and the lords kept smaller armies.

Lets think about this. Lets compare two rules we have pleanty information about: Roberts reign vs the reign we see with Bloodraven as hand. (Thats comparing a drunk, whore king, against one of the reigns with a better hand ever). Lets leave Greyjoys and Blackfyres behind. Have we heard of houses battling each other in all the realm, in private war mode, for a river or a ford ???As Webbers with Osgreys, Brackens vs Blackwoods or Dagon Greyjoy makin raids, and Lannisters and Starks building ships to fight back?


Lets take Aerys while he was sane. Leave RR in the same spot we did with Blackfyres and Greyjoy rebelion. We still have Reynes, Kingswood brotherhood and Dukensale.

Under Robert we dont have houses fighting each other.

Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta 2, 19 December 2013 - 06:10 PM.


#10 Apple Martini

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:10 PM

I think at best it was probably a wash. It's either smaller, more-frequent conflicts in the pre-Targ era, versus less-frequent but far larger-scale conflicts in the Targ era. I think it's slightly inaccurate to say the Targs brought peace, but I can see where some people would prefer less-frequent fighting, even in the conflict encompassed the entire country rather than two or three of the kingdoms.



#11 Mad Monkey

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:21 PM

Under Robert we dont have houses fighting each other.

 

I'm a little confused as to how you reach this conclusion. What do you call Tywin burning the Riverlands and Balon shanking Tywin in the navy? Based on what happened after Robert died, it's pretty clear that the peace under his rule was basically people sharpening their knives -- if you're going to trumpet that then you might as well trumpet every single stretch of time in the Targaryen era where there weren't any wars.

 

Robert was only king for 15 years -- there are many, many stretches of time where there was peace for 15 years or more but you're not eager to hand out brownie points to the Targs for that, so you shouldn't give credit to Robert for only having two wars in 15 years.



#12 Darth Visenya

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:25 PM

2- Eleven years of Faith Upraising "resulting in the deaths of  thousands in battle, slaughter and by dragonfire".
 

 

Now that does sound fun :D.



#13 Stan the Man Baratheon

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:26 PM

To the posters who are suggesting that before there were Wars between seven kingdoms, is an inaccurate conclusion. There would have been constant Skirmishes but not a full blown war. North-South Korea are still as of today are in a state of War. I think it would have been like this, the kingdoms were at war but not at a full blown war, just a few skirmishes. 



#14 Stan the Man Baratheon

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:26 PM

 

Now that does sound fun :D.

It is not fun when you are at the receiving end.



#15 TheCrannogDweller

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

Lets compare two rules we have pleanty information about: Roberts reign vs the reign we see with Bloodraven as hand. (Thats comparing a drunk, whore king, against one of the reigns with a better hand ever).

 

   Sure, let's also completely ignore the fact that it was Jon Arryn who did the ruling while Robert fucked boars and hunted whores.

 

   Let's also forget the fact that in the short span of 15 years there were two wars with a lot of destruction and casualties.

 

   Let's also forget that Dorne was basically part of the kingdom only in name, due to the murder of Elia Martell and her children.

 

   Let's also forget how the Lannisters basically controlled Robert through their gold.

 

   Let's forget all that so it can fit perfectly in the "Stannis is the greatest king that ever lived" narrative.

 

   Oh, did I mention that he wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Aegon the Conqueror creating House Baratheon?

 

   Yeah, you're welcome Stanstans.


Edited by TheCrannogDweller, 19 December 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#16 Darth Visenya

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:34 PM

It is not fun when you are at the receiving end.

 

I wouldn't be silly enough to be on the receiving end by being a Religious Zealot, so yes, Religious Zealots+Immolation by Dragonfire=:rofl:.



#17 Apple Martini

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:35 PM

 

   Sure, let's also completely ignore the fact that it was Jon Arryn who did the ruling while Robert fucked boars and hunted whores.

 

   Let's also forget the fact that in the short span of 15 years there were two wars with a lot of destruction and casualties.

 

   Let's also forget that Dorne was basically part of the kingdom only in name, due to the murder of Elia Martell and her children.

 

   Let's also forget how the Lannisters basically controlled Robert through their gold.

 

   Let's forget all that so it can fit perfectly in the "Stannis is the greatest king that ever lived" narrative.

 

   Oh, did I mention that he wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Aegon the Conqueror creating House Baratheon?

 

   Yeah, you're welcome Stanstans.

 

Just because Robert was a terrible king doesn't mean the Targaryens were good ones. If anything it just shores up the idea that each kingdom should be left to its own devices -- why should anyone have to live under a Robert, or an Aegon IV, or a Maegor, or a Baelor, or ...

 

At least the individual kingdoms are held together by geographic proximity, culture, religion, stronger intermarriage, etc. One kingdom's bannermen could feasibly work to overthrow or challenge a poor-quality lord, whereas it's almost impossible to do that to someone on the level of ruling the entire south-of-the-Wall continent.


Edited by Apple Martini, 19 December 2013 - 06:36 PM.


#18 Ser Lepus

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:37 PM

Lets think about this. Lets compare two rules we have pleanty information about: Roberts reign vs the reign we see with Bloodraven as hand. (Thats comparing a drunk, whore king, against one of the reigns with a better hand ever). Lets leave Greyjoys and Blackfyres behind. Have we heard of houses battling each other in all the realm, in private war mode, for a river or a ford ???As Webbers with Osgreys, Brackens vs Blackwoods or Dagon Greyjoy makin raids, and Lannisters and Starks building ships to fight back?


Lets take Aerys while he was sane. Leave RR in the same spot we did with Blackfyres and Greyjoy rebelion. We still have Reynes, Kingswood brotherhood and Dukensale.

Under Robert we dont have houses fighting each other.

 

The Targayren had Dagon, Robert had Balon Greyjoy.

 

We know about the Osgreys and the Webbers because we follow Dunk and Egg around. If we had a novel about an hedge knight travelling around during Robert's reign, we would probably learn about similar conficts. There are mercenaries like Bronn around, so there must be wars.

 

And anyway...what is the difference between Robert and the Targayren, besides the fact that Robert did nothing? Did Robert have some magical property that drained the desire to fight out of his bannermen? Jon Arryn is said to have been a good Hand, but the same is said about Tyrwin and about Bloodraven.



#19 mediterraneo

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:44 PM

 
Nevertheless, its absolutly clear PAX TARGARYA is just a mith.
 

 

Well, it is NOT a myth. As Ser Lepus have already well summed up.
Consider that between late 1st century BC and the end of 2nd century AD, the "Pax Romana" period you refer to in your "Pax Targarya" referral, Temple of Janus had its door closed (signaling actual peacetime) only during 2 years.
I would have said Pax Targaryana, but that's unimportant, and I may be wrong.

 

The wars we know about are:

 

Year 1 - The conquest.

Year 37 to 48 - Faith's Uprising.

Year 129-131 - Dance of Dragons.

Year 157-161 - Conquest of Dorne.

Year 195-196 - Blackfyre Rebellion.

Year 200 - Raymund Redbeard's Invasion.

Year 211 - Dagon Greyjoy's Rebellion.

Year 255-260 - War of the Ninepenny Kings.

Year 282-283 - War of the Usurper.

 

That's a total of 24 to 32 years of war out of a period of 293 years...that's not too bad for a medieval feudal society.

 

Well, we can compare 2 years of peace Pax Romana provided to 268 years of Pax Targaryana in the same 300 years span.
Not bad.

I really wouldn't go back and count how many years we have to go back to reach 11 wars in present, in a Pax Americana environment, or 11 conflicts (counting coups) just  in the Americas to be fair with the Targaryen.

We should also compare the situation with the times in which Harren the Black ravaged the land and Bolton and Starks cut each other's parts every other year, or with the peace the Baratheon successor dinasty gave the realm after that.
 

 

 

Now that does sound fun :D.

 

I liked that.

 

It is not fun when you are at the receiving end.

 

But you are on the recieving end only if you are an armed uprsising religious fanatical...
(Or your neighbour said so to a dragonrider)



#20 Seņor de la Tormenta 2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:45 PM

 
I'm a little confused as to how you reach this conclusion. What do you call Tywin burning the Riverlands and Balon shanking Tywin in the navy? Based on what happened after Robert died, it's pretty clear that the peace under his rule was basically people sharpening their knives -- if you're going to trumpet that then you might as well trumpet every single stretch of time in the Targaryen era where there weren't any wars.
 
Robert was only king for 15 years -- there are many, many stretches of time where there was peace for 15 years or more but you're not eager to hand out brownie points to the Targs for that, so you shouldn't give credit to Robert for only having two wars in 15 years.

Im not comparing major conflicts, events leading either to the WO5K or BlackFyres (2) rebelions incidents. Im just saying that trought Dunk and Egg eyes we see a state of constant private war between lords, that definitly didnt happened under Roberts.

Thats all the point of "Summer Knights". Any men under 30 hasnt been in any actual fighting.

Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta 2, 19 December 2013 - 06:47 PM.