Aegon at ToJ

[WeaselPie]

But if Walys was brought to ToJ to assist Lyanna, how would that be explained or accomplished? The entire Riverlands was involved in the war, and Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell, who would have noticed if his maester suddenly went missing. There was war in the Riverlands, so how would this maester get to the ToJ without questions being asked that would point to Lyanna? That also rules out White Harbor?

I agree that it would be weird if there was only Gerold, Oswell, Arthur and Lyanna at the tower, and we know there was at least one more (Ned mentioned that they found him holding Lyanna's death body. They cannot include Gerold, Oswell or Arthur, who were already dead by then, nor can they include anyone other of Ned's companions than Howland Reed, who is one of the they mentioned by name. The other companions who had come with Ned were also dead by then). So there definitly was someone else in the Tower, and it would make the most sense if this unknown person was there to assist Lyanna with the birth. But Maester Walys... I feel that if he indeed went south to involve himself in the war even further, it would have been noticed, and Lady Dustin would have mentioned it when ranting on the maester.

I don't know, but Walys did indeed "go missing" and was presumed dead somewhere in 283.

It's entirely possible that after Rickard and Brandon were murdered, and Lyanna went missing, that Walys left to search for her. Perhaps he even insisted on joining Lyanna, or was forced to come along with Lyanna when she was kidnapped. Unfortunately we don't know where Lyanna was when she went missing. Benjen of course would have to remain in Winterfell. What Benjen knew, I cannot guess. But "the Maester is off searching for the missing Lyanna" is a perfectly plausible reason for his absence.

As for Lady Dustin's rant, she conveniently got cut off. But the intimation is that the Hightowers (or Citadel) placed him in WF to cause problems. She makes particular note of Walys being a Hightower bastard.

Yes, I think someone must have been at the ToJ to aid Lyanna with the birth, and I believe it was a Maester. If not Walys, who?

I like the Walys connection because he is a bastard of Hightower. Gerold's brother? Cousin? Uncle? We don't know, but a bastard of the family nonetheless. It seems a little bit too neat that the Starks had a Hightower bastard sworn to Winterfell, and Gerold was supposedly guarding a potential Stark/Targ bastard. Why did GRRM make it a point that Walys was a Hightower bastard? It's enough that he was the bastard of an Archmaester, that alone would have given him motivation.

And the Citadel would certainly appreciate having a Targ heir in their hands. They were and are conspiring, and I'm sure they (and certain other Hightowers) were aware of the same prophecy Rhaegar read.

I'm certainly keeping an open mind. Just some thoughts, really.

[finger]

Ok, that one about Jon is good for me for now ;)

Still, I think any theory about Aegon not being at the Sack has to account for his whereabouts afterwards. Somewhere a silver-haired purple-eyed teenager of 18 years is bumbling around and we have never seen him? How did that happen?

So, again, why was Aegon not at the ToJ when Ned arrived? Why didn't at least one KG (Hightower?) leave with him, if Aegon left? Who else accompanied Aegon? And where is he now?

If Pycelle knew about the switch, why ddiddn't he tell Tywin, Kevan, or Robert? If he knew the dead baby wasn't Aegon even before the Sack, he could have made himself even more influential by, you know, making that information public. He was Tywin's toad to boot, so why not tell Tywin that there's a loose end hanging around, ready to disturb his plans?

You insist in talking about it and this derives us from the main issue of the topic. It's about if and how he reached ToJ, not how he left it.

I guess he was taken away by Ashara Dayne, who took him to Asshai, probably with the help of Archmaester Marwin. Ashara lives under Quaithe, and she's in touch with Marwin through Candle Network. But this is off topic, since he could have been smuggled otherwise and it wouldn't affect his arriving to ToJ.

Conversely, he wasn't at ToJ when Ned arrived.

Moreover, the reason of the 3 KG staying there to die was to prevent anyone to know from him.

I must confess, I hadn't thought of Pycelle but, why was he Tywin's trustee? Maybe he was who told Tywin about the baby swap? I had thought of Varys, but Pycelle might make more sense, or both. We know some corpse was disfigured when it was meant to be a present, so it's licit to infere that Tywin knew it was a fake, and he disguised it on purpose.

[finger]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

You're right, "trust" may not be the best word I could have chosen. In fact Hightower is rather trustful.

Rhaegar could expect from him to give his live for his son's, and to reveal the ToJ to Aerys. I think Tywin Lannister said something of chosing the right man for the right task. Just so. If Rhaegar confirms Aerys' command of guarding Aegon, Hightower couldn't do otherwise

You might find a better word to describe it, but Rhaegar still had a good reason to leave him guarding Aegon. The two others are left to make sure he's not into some conflict of loyalties.

[The guy from the Vale]

But that's my point: Aegon's fate during RR and his current situation are indivisible matters. If you insist Aegon is still alive, you also have to explain how it matters for the story. I also don't see any indication that Aegon is in Asshai, except your heartfelt wish (which you are entitled to, of course).

The KG could have left two of them behind and have the last one disappear with Aegon. In Asshai, even a White Cloak would be safe I think. Why would Gerold send a one-year-old Aegon on such a dangerous voyage, without any KG protection? And then nobody but Gerold could really vouch for the identity of the kid, which means he almost has to accompany Aegon.

We're really getting bogged down here in lots of fanfiction and losing sight of my main point: You have a massive gap in the story in terms of how that real Aegon would matter, how he could come into the story, and how we could explain his absence and the circumstances (like, for example, him being deserted by the Kingsguard, which should raise lots of red flags).

Unlikely. Concealing the baby swap is the worst reaction Tywin could have made: He has to assume the truth will ultimately leak, exposing him to a massive backlash from the other lords. It's far better for him to be straightforward about it, particularly if he has Pycelle's and possibly Varys' word for it.

I think Gregor randomly smashing the baby's head because he screamed too much makes a lot more sense. Sending Gregor made sure Aegon was killed, but the head smashing makes sense without a swap: Gregor has massive headaches, which tend to get worse in noisy surroundings (at least in my experience).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't know, but Walys did indeed "go missing" and was presumed dead somewhere in 283.

It's entirely possible that after Rickard and Brandon were murdered, and Lyanna went missing, that Walys left to search for her. Perhaps he even insisted on joining Lyanna, or was forced to come along with Lyanna when she was kidnapped. Unfortunately we don't know where Lyanna was when she went missing. Benjen of course would have to remain in Winterfell. What Benjen knew, I cannot guess. But "the Maester is off searching for the missing Lyanna" is a perfectly plausible reason for his absence.

As for Lady Dustin's rant, she conveniently got cut off. But the intimation is that the Hightowers (or Citadel) placed him in WF to cause problems. She makes particular note of Walys being a Hightower bastard.

Yes, I think someone must have been at the ToJ to aid Lyanna with the birth, and I believe it was a Maester. If not Walys, who?

I like the Walys connection because he is a bastard of Hightower. Gerold's brother? Cousin? Uncle? We don't know, but a bastard of the family nonetheless. It seems a little bit too neat that the Starks had a Hightower bastard sworn to Winterfell, and Gerold was supposedly guarding a potential Stark/Targ bastard. Why did GRRM make it a point that Walys was a Hightower bastard? It's enough that he was the bastard of an Archmaester, that alone would have given him motivation.

And the Citadel would certainly appreciate having a Targ heir in their hands. They were and are conspiring, and I'm sure they (and certain other Hightowers) were aware of the same prophecy Rhaegar read.

I'm certainly keeping an open mind. Just some thoughts, really.

I always thought that the fact that he was mentioned to have been a Hightower bastard was because: Hightowers -> Oldtown -> Citadel -> kill all dragons (and subsequently all Targaryens). Which would explain the southron ambitions of Lord Rickard. After the War of the Ninepenny Kings, all of the great lords of Westeros knew each other, something that had not happened a long time before. They were mostly friends, and that is also where the betrothals between Lyanna and Robert, and Brandon and Catelyn came from, and the idea of a betrothal between Jaime and Lysa. The Great Houses were uniting. Which meant that if Aerys did something to one member of one great house, immediately multiple great houses would be involved, and the maesters of Oldtown could more easily get rid of the Targaryens

[WeaselPie]

I always thought that the fact that he was mentioned to have been a Hightower bastard was because: Hightowers -> Oldtown -> Citadel -> kill all dragons (and subsequently all Targaryens). Which would explain the southron ambitions of Lord Rickard. After the War of the Ninepenny Kings, all of the great lords of Westeros knew each other, something that had not happened a long time before. They were mostly friends, and that is also where the betrothals between Lyanna and Robert, and Brandon and Catelyn came from, and the idea of a betrothal between Jaime and Lysa. The Great Houses were uniting. Which meant that if Aerys did something to one member of one great house, immediately multiple great houses would be involved, and the maesters of Oldtown could more easily get rid of the Targaryens

Well, we're pretty much on the same page with these ideas. The Citadel is in the thick of it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

You're right, "trust" may not be the best word I could have chosen. In fact Hightower is rather trustful.

Rhaegar could expect from him to give his live for his son's, and to reveal the ToJ to Aerys. I think Tywin Lannister said something of chosing the right man for the right task. Just so. If Rhaegar confirms Aerys' command of guarding Aegon, Hightower couldn't do otherwise

You might find a better word to describe it, but Rhaegar still had a good reason to leave him guarding Aegon. The two others are left to make sure he's not into some conflict of loyalties.

But then there's still the problem with the timeline for your scenario, if I may point that out.

I highly doubt that Rhaegar would have let Hightower guard Aegon if he didn't trust him, even if Whent ans Dayne were there as well.

Also, Hightower went out to find Rhaegar. We don't know how long it took him to find Rhaegar, but I guess we can assume that he didn't succeed immediately. Taking a babe with you on such a journey, while the child in question is about half a year old, give or take a month or two, during times of war, is extremely dangerous.

You suggest Hightower did not return to KL after leaving KL to find Rhaegar, and that he took Aegon for safekeeping because Rhaegar wanted it so. Yet then you write Rhaegar did not trust Hightower. Where is the evidence for that, btw?

If Rhaegar did not trust Hightower, Hightower would not have been tasked with bringing Aegon to the ToJ. Also, the timeline for it is off.

The way you suggested it, Hightower immediately took Aegon when he started searching for Rhaegar. But Rhaegar wasn't easily found, and Aegon was about half a year old. You don't simply take a half year old baby and travel with it across the country.

[Ser Leftwich]

Theses pieces must fit. The theory stands while it's not proven that:

* the pieces don't fit

This reads to me that " the theory stands even if the evidence (pieces) don't fit." That makes no sense.

What we have (it can be elaborated)

Rhaegar's whereabuts were unkown to Jaime, and probably Aerys, but he was in touch with “someone” out there

Jon Connington was Rhaegar's best friend, together with Arthur Dayne

Hightower obeyed Aerys over any other consideration

Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books

1) When you say 'he' was in touch with "someone " out there, who and where are you talking about?

2) JonCon was a friend of Rhaegar, not best friend. Not even Jon Con makes the assertion of "best friend."

3) What in Hightower's behavior is not proper? If he is obeying the king's commands and has seen to the king's security before he (Hightower) left KL, he is doing everything by the book.

We have the scene in ASoS, where the KG meets:

Kettleblack complied. The other Sworn Brothers filed in one by one. “Sers,” Jaime said in a formal tone when all five had assembled, “who guards the king?”

“My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” Ser Osmund replied.

“And my brother Ser Garlan,” said the Knight of Flowers.

“Will they keep him safe?”

“They will, my lord.”

“Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured.

ASoS p. 917

Whenever Hightower left KL, there were KG with Aerys, at least Jaime, at most Jaime, Darry, Selmy, and Martell.

Again, what is not proper about Hightower's behavior?

[Ygrain]

They found the Golden Company beside the river as the sun was lowering in the west. It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of—compact, orderly, defensible. A deep ditch had

been dug around it, with sharpened stakes inside. The tents stood in rows, with broad avenues between them. The latrines had been placed beside the river, so the current would wash away the wastes.

That is a by-the-book camp, and while we can safely conclude that Arthur Dayne led a military force at least once, knew the routine well and ran the command tight, it still tells nothing about his commanding skills in the field. It doesn't provide any basis for perceiving him as some Alexander the Great of Westeros.

Concerning the presence of a Maester at ToJ: if there was indeed one, which is in no way a must (a skilled midwife would do no worse, it's not like maesters are the only ones who might assist in childbirth), then Starfall is the closest friendly location.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

A few questions then:

How did Lyanna Stark die?

What happened to Aegon?

If Jon Snow is Aegon...

Why does Ned remember Aegon being dead?

Why does Jon look like a Stark?

If Aegon was smuggled to JC...

When did that happen, before or after Ned arrived at the ToJ?

If before, why didn't the KG come with him?

If after, why does Ned remember Aegon being dead?

Who is Jon Snow's mother?

Why does Varys tell another story to JC?

If Aegon died...

Who or what killed him? And why?

Who is Jon Snow's mother?

If none of the above...

Where is Aegon now?

Who is Jon Snow's mother?

Why didn't Jaime (or Pycelle) know of the switch? They were both around Aegon regularly.

A few more points to note:

Jon Connington's 'friendship' to Rhaegar was probably less close than C wanted, and less close than Rhaegar's friendship to Dayne

Why would retrieving the crown prince and possibly negotiating his return be lowly appointments? I'd rather see them as some of the most important tasks, only to be performed by someone Aerys could trust (and with his paranoia...)

Why does Hightower, at the ToJ, lead the discussion if Rhaegar wanted to have Arthur ad Whent watch over him? Why not have Arthur do most of the talking?

:tantrum: :bawl: :tantrum: :bawl: :tantrum: Why you stopped the fun?

Nevertheless, at least it isn't something ridiculous like Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia...

[Ygrain]

:tantrum: :bawl: :tantrum: :bawl: :tantrum: Why you stopped the fun?

For he is the slayer of funs and his is the song of logic and reason.

[The guy from the Vale]

Ah, the wailing and gnashing of teeth. What a festive sound :P

Just kidding. Sorry to be a spoilsport, friends, but I have had lots of cudly christmas-related moods all around me. Sometimes I just have to bring out my analytic side, and my family usually hates me when I do that, so I'll keep it to places that are designated for discussion. Sorry to hit you guys and gals ;)

[Ser Leftwich]

What we can easily guess

Rhaegar asked something in exchange when he came back. He'd haggle with Aerys for the price of his coming back through some intermediare.

There was something of huge value at ToJ to leave three KG, not only a pregnant second wife .

These two should be moved into the "My own stuff category."

No reason to believe Rhaegar did haggle or could. Chelsted was still Hand when Rhaegar came back. If Rhaegar was haggling with Aerys, why not demand to become the Hand? We do not even know if Aerys let Rhaegar into the Red Keep when he returned to KL.

The first half is ok, "That there is something at the ToJ of value," yes, that it has to be something besides a second wife is not "easily guessed."

[Ygrain]

Ah, the wailing and gnashing of teeth. What a festive sound :P

Just kidding. Sorry to be a spoilsport, friends, but I have had lots of cudly christmas-related moods all around me. Sometimes I just have to bring out my analytic side, and my family usually hates me when I do that, so I'll keep it to places that are designated for discussion. Sorry to hit you guys and gals ;)

Cary on, It's definitely preferable to the Christmas craze.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

For he is the slayer of funs and his is the song of logic and reason.

Good one! :thumbsup: But it would be so funny, so many potential crackpots are cracked before becoming crackpots at all.

Ah, the wailing and gnashing of teeth. What a festive sound :P

Just kidding. Sorry to be a spoilsport, friends, but I have had lots of cudly christmas-related moods all around me. Sometimes I just have to bring out my analytic side, and my family usually hates me when I do that, so I'll keep it to places that are designated for discussion. Sorry to hit you guys and gals ;)

It's ok, since it's you and you are always nice and kind, there is no problem. :D

[Ser Leftwich]

Have they given up already? :frown5:

[Ygrain]

Have they given up already? :frown5:

They never do. Winter is coming :P

[The guy from the Vale]

They never do. Winter is coming :P

I thought winter was here by now? ;)

[Ygrain]

I thought winter was here by now? ;)

You have figured it out :-)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just something I noticed, I always though that JonCon hoped/thought that he was Rhaegar's BFFE, because he was in love with him, when Rhaegar's BFFE was Arthur. I could be wrong tho. :dunno: