The sad tale of Janos Slynt; Westerosi elitism at its finest.

[Shadrich]

I disagree, I don't think an employee is a guest, especially LC of the GC, that's a prestigious position, and if a King or Hand couldn't remove him due to "guest rights," well, that seems wrong. LC's don't just get let go, there is usually a major reason to do so (distrust of the main person responsible for the safety of the city is a big deal) so you don't just let them go back to their old life. They'd then be a threat to the safety of the city since they know the patters of the watch and likely have allies within the ranks. You can't just fire them.

Also, sending him to the wall didn't harm him. Lipping off to the LC of the NW is what harmed him ;)

Yeahhh, I suppose. Tyrion could have done it more honourably though, with some herald coming in, announcing the arrest of Janos Slynt :P But he did "touch" on the guest right. He might have not gone all the way, à la Walder Frey, but still.

The prick deserved it, no question about that though.

[BionicBarry231]

Common man he was, and Kings-Landinger. Commended and accepted by the first king he served. "Robert said its better a known thief than an unknown one" as well as "they will just find someone worse". He was merely living up to his reputation, hardly death sentence worthy.

He played the game, granted the second rate game to that of the IT; but he played the game of LC's and did not win.

I think the honorable Slynt is the classic victim. His birth did not grant him the wisdom and teachings lords or squires get. Thus, he did not have the devilish wit of Tyrion or LF. His common mind was consistently lead by deceitful persons with devious agendas (LF and Thorne).

No love for Janos, Heresy I say! Everyone still loves Sansa for being a catspaw in another of LF's schemes..

[Hajk]

Well that assumes that Lorch or Clegane never tried to seperate themselves for which we have no evidence. Should we just believe it because of what other characters may think of them? (Using reasoning similar to that which seems to exonerate Janos from taking bribes etc.).

Anyhow as you have seemingly conceded the point in terms of equating him with some of the most monstrous characters in the series I do not need to argue this further. The only qualification you provide is possibly comparing him to the Hound. But the Hound at least seems to be on a redemption arc of some sort. He has at least shown some signs of a compassionate core buried somewhere. That does not absolve him of course. But Janos has shown no signs of any such thing. Can we assume that there was much of this going on off-stage? We could but why should we? I may as well assume that Gregor cries himself to sleep every night remembering the events of the sack.

More seriously

By your reading, Janos is a loyal and honorable man who did his duty. He was effectively Eddard Stark minus high birth and appearance. His only sin was that he was born in a lower class. All his success is to be attributed to his own positive qualities (e.g. 'competence' or what not). All his failings are to be attributed to the negative attributes of others (e.g. their elitism and skewed opinions). That was the sole reason anyone ever thought he was corrupt etc. If this picture were true, there would be reason to entertain this theory. But where is the evidence that this is the sole reason?

[ugashep]

This thread is high quality trolling. Someone superimpose Slynt's face in the style of iconic Obama HOPE poster.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Littlefinger is a victim of his station in society. And he is elite. The concept of elitism isn't a mistake, the mistake is in forgetting that anyone can be elite no matter their birth. Yet Slynt is just a treacherous snake who was bought to betray the hand.

Tyrion understandably felt that Slynt was a threat to his well being. So he decided to take care of the threat once and for all, without actually harming Slynt. Deftly done, my lord :cool4:

[Harle The Handsome]

This thread starts off on the wrong foot. To say Janos Slynt rose to power through his wits, hard work and dedication completely ignores the evidence presented.

...Bowen Marsh beside him said, "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?"

"Any of you I would think. Even the cook." The look the king gave Slynt was cold. "Janos was hardly the first gold cloak to take a bribe, I grant you, but he may have been the first commander to fatten his purse by selling places and promotions. By the end he must have had half the officers in the City Watch paying him part of their wages. Isn't that so, Janos?"

Slynt's neck was purpling. Lies, all lies! A strong man makes enemies, Your Grace knows that, they whisper lies behind your back. Naught was ever proven, not a man came forward..."

"Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds." Stannis narrowed his eyes. "Do not trifle with me, my lord. I saw the proof Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king you would have lost more than your office, I promise you, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. 'They all steal,' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse.' Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant.

So, in essence, Janos Slynt was the Boss Tweed of his time.

[danm_999]

If you're that desperate for a self made man role model in the books, why go for Slynt and not Davos Seaworth, a man who rose higher than Slynt and who did so by being courageous, moral and empathetic.

[Sansa_Stark]

If you're that desperate for a self made man role model in the books, why go for Slynt and not Davos Seaworth, a man who rose higher than Slynt and who did so by being courageous, moral and empathetic.

Or why not the high sparrow.

Isn't he self made

I mean

"The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men."

[complexphoenix]

Sorry, but no. Unlike Davos Seaworth, who has risen in station by being honest and competent, Janos Slynt is a greedy, amoral little opportunist who will do whatever it takes to gain more wealth and power and doesn't care a fig who gets hurt. Kind of like Littlefinger, but a lot less smart, which I think is why Littlefinger liked him.

When Robert was alive he ran the City Watch corruptly to enrich himself. When Robert died he sold his allegiance to the highest bidder. Then he murdered a baby. Case closed.

[Dany Girl]

See! Janos Slynt is not merely a 2 dimensional character.

I don't get this, you mean because their place of work happens to be the same building there is no guest right? But when a man invites another man into his accomodation, i.e the Hand's solar, under the pretense of a friendly meeting, gives him food and drink and then has the man accosted after getting him innebriated thats okay? The other acts aren't breaking guest right, because bread and salt havent been consumed and all that.

So if the Freys had merely captured Robb Stark at the wedding and charged him with treason, offering him a choice of death or the wall, would that have been alright? Guest right surely must apply to leaving your guest entirely unmolested for that one night, otherwise no one would trust anyone.

He's not better than them for that, at all, apart from that Slynt seems to feel the need to justify it and seperate himself emotionally, much like the Hound does "its not my place to question Princes". Whereas Clegane and Lorch are just animals. On the other hand, Clegane, Lorch and the Hound were allowed to contine with their lives, whereas Slynt was punished. Favouritism there?

If Tyrion had burst in on Slynt like he did with Pycelle, that would have been fine, my issue is with the manner with which he was accosted, seems to me he broke guest right. Why I ask? Because guest right was invented so that all the high-born toffs could feel safe round each others houses, and Slynt was too low born for it to apply to him. More bias.

My point is that as an employee of the Crown, he is not entitled to Guest Rights. He's not a guest, he's an employee. Even if he's under the impression he's being asked to the Tower of the Hand as an informal meeting he's still going strictly because of his status as LC, therefore he's not some guest that's entitled to guest rights. And since no one, especially Tywin, calls it a breach of guest rights, I'm going with it isn't. Tyrion is appalled by Tywin's part in the RW, don't you think if what Tyrion did to Janos violated guest rights that Tywin would have called him on it.

Also, Rob wasn't an employee of Walder's, he was his King. Janos is Tyrion's employee, not a guest. Guest rights do not extend to employees, nor do they extend to those who live in the same place (like Stannis arresting Davos).

[Mad Monkey]

If you're that desperate for a self made man role model in the books, why go for Slynt and not Davos Seaworth, a man who rose higher than Slynt and who did so by being courageous, moral and empathetic.

The whole point of this thread is to take a sympathetic view towards a character that is wholly unlikeable. Davos is so upstanding and likeable that a thread like this wouldn't really make sense since few people would disagree.

[Light a wight tonight]

The OP could have been written by a criminal-defense attorney like the one who asked for mercy for his client who'd killed both his parents on the grounds that he was now an orphan.

[danm_999]

The whole point of this thread is to take a sympathetic view towards a character that is wholly unlikeable. Davos is so upstanding and likeable that a thread like this wouldn't really make sense since few people would disagree.

Well, two things.

Firstly, the whole point of this thread appears to make Janos Slynt sympathetic by pointing out while he did terrible things, it was the "only honourable course of action available to him" because of prejudices of the highborn, essentially admiring him for being between a rock and a hard place. I think pointing out that Davos managed to act honourably, and morally, and also rise is a strong counterpoint to the notion we should admire Janos, since he did it better. Davos proves Slynt isn't worth admiring.

Secondly, the OP discusses Davos heavily anyway, and ludicrously tries to suggest Stannis made Davos hand as a joke, so Davos has already been put in the mix for discussion anyway.

[IRON BANK]

Janos Slynt is westerosi elitism. Janos is corrupt at his position every one knows but cannot do anything because the ruling class says so. Janos is so corrupt LF buys him w/o struggle to get rid of Ned, Know one can do anything because of the ruling class. Janos runs through the town taking out babies, Know one can do anything because of the ruling class. Janos said in the end he had freinds at court, The only problem was he was not in front of them this time amd it cost Janos his life.

[Mad Monkey]

Well, two things.

Firstly, the whole point of this thread appears to make Janos Slynt sympathetic by pointing out while he did terrible things, it was the "only honourable course of action available to him" because of prejudices of the highborn, essentially admiring him for being between a rock and a hard place. I think pointing out that Davos managed to act honourably, and morally, and also rise is a strong counterpoint to the notion we should admire Janos, since he did it better. Davos proves Slynt isn't worth admiring.

Secondly, the OP discusses Davos heavily anyway, and ludicrously tries to suggest Stannis made Davos hand as a joke, so Davos has already been put in the mix for discussion anyway.

I get that, but my point is that if this thread was about Davos then there wouldn't be this 'entertaining' debate. Most people can agree that Davos is admirable and worthwhile; few people would say the same for Janos. The whole point of trolling is to take an unpopular, usually untenable opinion and then justify it using a convoluted string of bizarre assumptions and disorienting logical fallacies. You can't do that with Davos. (Or, well, you can but it wouldn't make a difference).

[Arya kiddin']

What is sad about Janos dying??.....

[( Bloodraven )]

What is sad about Janos dying??.....

The fact that we only get to have one "Edd, fetch me a block" + The Nod moment in the books :frown5:

[Arya kiddin']

The fact that we only get to have one "Edd, fetch me a block" + The Nod moment in the books :frown5:

Haha. I suppose that must be it.

[Drth Fel]

Please tell me no one is taking this thread seriously.

[Minstral]

Please tell me no one is taking this thread seriously.

I think that this is where people would start the holiday festivities, so maybe only half are going to be serious. So lets go about proposing alternative views on characters. He has one or two things in common with his "honored" king Joffrey. The most prominent being that both repeat their rank. "I am the king" croaks Joffy, "it is m'lord" quorks Janos. They also have similar names.

If he is truly seen by you, Bronn Urgandy, as the champion of the Commons then what about the fact that he invoked his newfound station above said commons and then brutalized the lowest of the low. Or that his corruption precedes the atomic pustule that is Joffrey and would have carried onto your man Stannis if he allowed it. He begged the man to name him Commander of the Nights Watch but was rebuffed