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R + L = J v 68


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:58 AM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty) 

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one) 

 

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

 

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

 

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

 

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

 

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

 

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

 

 



#2 MtnLion

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:01 AM

Yes, Lady G. that is also a possibility.  We just don't know what Brandon's errand was precisely.  We do know that Ned and Lyanna spoke at Winterfell, and the logical timeline says that it is after the tourney.  



#3 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:04 AM

Yes, Lady G. that is also a possibility.  We just don't know what Brandon's errand was precisely.  We do know that Ned and Lyanna spoke at Winterfell, and the logical timeline says that it is after the tourney.  

Right! That's one thing I believe is certain. The rest is speculation based on logic :)

#4 Julian Rayne

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:37 AM

Potential TPatQ
Spoiler

Edited by Julian Rayne, 05 January 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#5 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:48 AM

Potential TPatQ

Spoiler


You'd be surprised.
Spoiler


#6 Ser Leftwich

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:10 AM

"“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End." AGoT p. 379

 

Here is the passage. Timeline wise, if this is when Rickard agreed to the match, and it was publicly know at the ToH, that would make Ned's visit to Winterfell before the ToH.

 

I always thought that Ned went to Winterfell to propose the Robert-Lyanna arrangement (Rickard agrees), then went south with his sibling to the ToH.



#7 addicted to snow

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:18 AM

Here is a repost that I thought was interesting enough to repost...

 

What are you guys/girl's thoughts?

- Between the Tourney @ Harrenhal & Lyanna's death (up to 21 months apart), Lyanna had time to carry two children to full term

- GRRM made sure to leave us with at least a subtle hint that Lyanna had feelings for (or had a crush on) Rheagar at the Harrenhal Tourney in the year of the False Spring… He certainly didn't give us this piece of information by accident.

 

Did Lyanna get it on with Rheagar at the tourney? Did Lyanna & Rheagar have relations after Rheagar tracked down the Knight of the Laughing Tree? If she was pregnant when leaving the Tourney, then Lyanna could have easily carried to full pregnancies to term before her death at the Tower of Joy. It seems possible that Lyanna had just given birth to her 2nd child when Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. Though I am not sure that this is what happened, I can't definitively say that it is not what happened either.

 

What would it do to the story if Lyanna did in fact give birth to two (live) children? Was her firstborn child a female with Targ Features who is now going mad? Could this explain why Ned only starts to feel that he has broken his promise to Lyanna after Varys informs him that Dany is likely dead.

 

Looking at the bigger picture, could the interactions of R & L at the Harrenhal Tourney have triggered something as related to Ice & Fire that is yet unknown to the reader, something that caused the notably strange weather patterns that resulted in the "Year of the False Spring"?

 

Whoever started this theory may be on to something...



#8 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:20 AM

Lyanna was in human company for the months after the ToH. People would have noticed if she had become pregnant in the meantime. You can usually see such things after 6 months.



#9 Ser Creighton

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:21 AM

Here is a repost that I thought was interesting enough to repost...
 
What are you guys/girl's thoughts?
- Between the Tourney @ Harrenhal & Lyanna's death (up to 21 months apart), Lyanna had time to carry two children to full term
- GRRM made sure to leave us with at least a subtle hint that Lyanna had feelings for (or had a crush on) Rheagar at the Harrenhal Tourney in the year of the False Spring… He certainly didn't give us this piece of information by accident.
 
Did Lyanna get it on with Rheagar at the tourney? Did Lyanna & Rheagar have relations after Rheagar tracked down the Knight of the Laughing Tree? If she was pregnant when leaving the Tourney, then Lyanna could have easily carried to full pregnancies to term before her death at the Tower of Joy. It seems possible that Lyanna had just given birth to her 2nd child when Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. Though I am not sure that this is what happened, I can't definitively say that it is not what happened either.
 
What would it do to the story if Lyanna did in fact give birth to two (live) children? Was her firstborn child a female with Targ Features who is now going mad? Could this explain why Ned only starts to feel that he has broken his promise to Lyanna after Varys informs him that Dany is likely dead.
 
Looking at the bigger picture, could the interactions of R & L at the Harrenhal Tourney have triggered something as related to Ice & Fire that is yet unknown to the reader, something that caused the notably strange weather patterns that resulted in the "Year of the False Spring"?
 
Whoever started this theory may be on to something...


You need to stop. It's a really, really, really bad argument. Really, Really bad. It's not thought out at all.

#10 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:38 AM

"Robert will never keep to one bed, Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storms End." AGoT p. 379
 
Here is the passage. Timeline wise, if this is when Rickard agreed to the match, and it was publicly know at the ToH, that would make Ned's visit to Winterfell before the ToH.
 
I always thought that Ned went to Winterfell to propose the Robert-Lyanna arrangement (Rickard agrees), then went south with his sibling to the ToH.

I'm going to apologize in advance for not providing actual quotes, but while he is in the Black Cells Ned recalls that he came to the ToH directly from the Eyrie. Also, in the quote you reference Lyanna mentions Robert's bastard child in the Vale. If you take this to be Mya Stone and apply the known timeline (again-- apologies for shortcutting) it appears she was born only very shortly before ToH. In other words, there doesn't appear to have been sufficient time or reason for Ned to travel to WF after Mya's birth, then back to the Eyrie and then on to HH. Weather would also have been a factor, as presumably the False Spring was preceded by winter, making travel to and from the Eyrie impossible (as we see it is generally abandoned in favor of the Gates during winter)

Eta-- I don't think we actually know that Robert and Lyanna's betrothal was public knowledge at ToH? I always assumed it was a chance for them to meet, and that Lyanna's comments at WF indicate she had made some personal observations that most likely occurred at the tourney.

Edited by Lady Gwynhyfvar, 05 January 2014 - 12:07 PM.


#11 Ser Leftwich

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:02 PM

"He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal." AGoT p. 630

 

Lady G, here is the quote. The language and circumstances in this quote are much more vague and Ned is more unreliable, but I get your point. This timeline is quite fuzzy.



#12 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

But the gap is at least 6 months, so the pregnancy is impossible. That was the entire point!



#13 addicted to snow

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:47 PM

That's a little too close for comfort, don't you think… Almost it the story was written so that she was abducted just before she started showing...

 

This may not be correct at all, I don't know, but in all fairness, this does not really strike the theory down, if anything it makes the 6-month gap seems more purposeful on the part of GRRM...

 

--

& why would GRRM even hint that the Prince of Dragon's Songs made the Wolf Girl weep? Why even hint that the she-wolf wanted some dragon prince? Then it was that very Dragon Prince who was sent to track down the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The reader is meant to conclude that when the She-Wolf learned the identity of her pursuer, she probably let herself be caught, or perhaps used some clever trick to capture her pursuers. Either way, the tale is intended so that the intuitive reader will conclude that they were together for at least a little while before going their separate ways. What did they do while together? Lyanna clearly liked him & was arguably seeking a means to get out of her forced betrothal to Roberto. Did they plan the abduction before parting? & most importantly, did they conceive a child?

 

Don't worry, someone will soon come up with a solid reason as to why this Theory cannot stand...



#14 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

The reason for showing Lyanna crying about Rhaegar's song might mainly be to show that their relationship was voluntary and mutual, in contrast to Robert's rape rage.

 

Also, a pregnancy runs pretty much counter to the characterisation of Rhaegar that we have so far. I don't think Rhaegar would have fathered a child on a woman he didn't marry yet... but we better leave that discussion aside :P

 

And I'm asking, for the umpteenth time: What would be the fricking point of a second pregnancy? What would it accomplish from a narrative perspective? And where is the baby?



#15 Ser Creighton

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:12 PM

Please advise me as to why this argument is "really, really bad"?
 
It seems to stand up to the scrutiny encountered thus far...

  • From the last Thread: Lyanna would have told Ned if she slept with Rheagar at the Tourney This is hardly conclusive My sister doesn't discuss her sex life with me (not counting this one occasion where I was her sex life, but that was an accident, we were drunk - she's totally not my type anyway).
  • & from this thread: People would have noticed if Lyanna were showing Very true, so this suggest a 6 month gap (or less) between conception @ or near Harrenhal & Lyanna's abduction.
Please share your thoughts if you can think of why this theory could not fit I'm not really a fan of it anyway, though I do like to try & puzzle out GRRM's plans...
If you would like.

Blu has claimed to have created a theory. What Blu doesn't know is that this is not a theory. It's not even a hypothesis. What this is, is a hypothetical proposition. In the form of a logic antecedent and consequent. "HH to kings landing was 21 months, therefore Lyanna had 2 children." Does the logic work? The answer is no, it does not work. So it lacks logic. Does it have extensive text evidence and facts? No. Does it contain contemplative and rational forms of abstract and generalized thinking. No as the logic form proved. Is there enough there to create a challenge to the existing theory. Again no as it lacks any text evidence or support.

Because there is time for someone to do something that does not mean they did it. Again no support in the books for said proposition.

Burden of proof. The Burden of proof is not on mean, the Burden of proof is on the author of said theory which is really a hypothetical proposition and their supporters, that would be you. It's not my job to fix the problem, it's Blu's and now yours if you support it.

The hypothetical proposition is like a what if, but instead of a question it makes a statement. Blu is not asking a question, Blu is making a statement. "There were 21 months from HH to KL, therefore Lyanna had two children." This would be a fallacy. Why? Because there is zero evidence.

Let me ask you, do you think this was a really well thought out proposition? That the author of the proposition did there do diligence, explored all the books, gathered the facts and evidence for support, and placed it in a logical form. Or do you think Blu had an idea that he/she liked, based off purely abstract unsupported observations, and wrote them down?

You want an answer to to why it's bad? It has no evidence or support. Go out there look at the books find the evidence that suggests Lyanna had two kids, and bring the rest of us the quotes. That's the authors job, these are the assertions you are supporting or Blu is, not me. Don't make a proposition and hope that someone else does the work for you.

Ser Creighton is awesome, therefore Ser Creighton rules the universe. Now I like this idea, but it's total BS. Do you understand now?

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the states of facts and evidence. Blu lack facts and evidence.

Edited by Ser Creighton, 05 January 2014 - 01:16 PM.


#16 addicted to snow

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:16 PM

The reason for showing Lyanna crying about Rhaegar's song might mainly be to show that their relationship was voluntary and mutual, in contrast to Robert's rape rage.

 

Also, a pregnancy runs pretty much counter to the characterisation of Rhaegar that we have so far. I don't think Rhaegar would have fathered a child on a woman he didn't marry yet... but we better leave that discussion aside :P

 

When an young woman who likes a young man is being chased through the woods by the same young man; Logic dictates that they do not play cyvasse when she was caught… GRRM didn't set all this up for them to exchange phone numbers.

 

Looking at this from another angle, Rheagar was very used to getting what he wanted, when he wanted it. For whatever reason, he decided that he wanted Lyanna (& not for the purpose of playing cyvasse with her). He was driven by some prophecy that he had stumbled across.

 

Rheagar's drive, coupled with her being obviously taken by his charms, it seems pretty clear what happened Rheagar caught the Kight of the Laughing Tree.

 

 

And I'm asking, for the umpteenth time: What would be the fricking point of a second pregnancy? What would it accomplish from a narrative perspective? And where is the baby?

 

I could not care less how many times you ask, though I must have missed your umpteen other queries...

 

I don't know… I am a Geologist / Oil & Gas Investor, not a literary scholar… It would be difficult for anyone to confidently tell you what the point would be without knowing the mind of GRRM…

 

Why were Leia & Luke siblings? That storyline certainly advanced the Star Wars plot, did it not?

 

Your guess is as good as mine on where the baby is. My first thought was Dany, but I have always thought that Dany was somehow intertwined in all of this because of some of Ned's thoughts. 



#17 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:20 PM

*snip


But Rhaegar, as far as we know, was seeking the KotLT with two other men. How do you interpret that?

Also, Luke and Leia were twins, so only one pregnancy involved (hint, hint) ;)

#18 addicted to snow

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

If you would like.

Blu has claimed to have created a theory. What Blu doesn't know is that this is not a theory. It's not even a hypothesis. What this is, is a hypothetical proposition. In the form of a logic antecedent and consequent. "HH to kings landing was 21 months, therefore Lyanna had 2 children." Does the logic work? The answer is no, it does not work. So it lacks logic. Does it have extensive text evidence and facts? No. Does it contain contemplative and rational forms of abstract and generalized thinking. No as the logic form proved. Is there enough there to create a challenge to the existing theory. Again no as it lacks any text evidence or support.

Because there is time for someone to do something that does not mean they did it. Again no support in the books for said proposition.

Burden of proof. The Burden of proof is not on mean, the Burden of proof is on the author of said theory which is really a hypothetical proposition and their supporters, that would be you. It's not my job to fix the problem, it's Blu's and now yours if you support it.

The hypothetical proposition is like a what if, but instead of a question it makes a statement. Blu is not asking a question, Blu is making a statement. "There were 21 months from HH to KL, therefore Lyanna had two children." This would be a fallacy. Why? Because there is zero evidence.

Let me ask you, do you think this was a really well thought out proposition? That the author of the proposition did there do diligence, explored all the books, gathered the facts and evidence for support, and placed it in a logical form. Or do you think Blu had an idea that he/she liked, based off purely abstract unsupported observations, and wrote them down?

You want an answer to to why it's bad? It has no evidence or support. Go out there look at the books find the evidence that suggests Lyanna had two kids, and bring the rest of us the quotes. That's the authors job, these are the assertions you are supporting or Blu is, not me. Don't make a proposition and hope that someone else does the work for you.

Ser Creighton is awesome, therefore Ser Creighton rules the universe. Now I like this idea, but it's total BS. Do you understand now?

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the states of facts and evidence. Blu lack facts and evidence.

 

I don't know who 'Blu' is… & for a variety of reasons, I do not think your post is very well thought out… 



#19 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:23 PM

Hi folks. Might've found something for you. :)
 

 

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark

 

Here it goes. They're talking about whoring and carnal relationships out of wedlock. Clearly, that is not a charge one could lay at the door of Eddard Stark, meaning, well you know. :lol:  This here is Eddard himself proclaiming that jon is not his son - all his children are trueborn.

 

In the same chapter however,
 

 

[snip] .....Where are all your people?"

 

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

 

 

This is an oft repeated quote here, taken to imply that Snow is being somehow equated to King. Actually Robert is just talking about the people. That was the subject of the previous question. So it is "your people" not "Kings" hiding under the snow. And well, Snow is cap S Snow, because well it is at the start of the sentence. ;)


Edited by Arya kiddin', 05 January 2014 - 01:28 PM.


#20 addicted to snow

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:28 PM

But Rhaegar, as far as we know, was seeking the KotLT with two other men. How do you interpret that?

It could be interpreted a variety of ways. These men were bound to him, they did as they were told… They can be as large or as small of an issue as GRRM would like to make of them...

 

You never know though, in the future, we could be offered some additional information regarding the nature of Rheagar & Lyanna's interactions & plans that could have been made immediately following the Knight of the Laughing Tree Chase/Hunt. I think that future BwB's Chapters would be a likely place for such information on the said encounter to spring forth, GRRM is very good about mixing things up - His pots come thoroughly stirred.

 

Also, Luke and Leia were twins, so only one pregnancy involved (hint, hint) ;)

Very true, but their being twins is outside of the context I was using & not pertinent to this particular discussion. Unless I misunderstand you & you are suggesting that Lyanna gave birth to twins at some point. This is a suggestion that I would be very open to, though I probably would not support the idea of two pregnancies & twins. However, one or the other seem to be viable options, again, based upon some of Ned's reactions & thoughts from aGOTs...


Edited by addicted to snow, 05 January 2014 - 01:52 PM.