Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[SeanF]

I agree, but its hard trying to argue this with certain posters, especially where Dany is concerned. I get tired of people implying this exactly the case with Dany and the slavers in Essos. I do not agree all her enemies are "one dimensional mustache twirling cartoon villains" as some claim, and this is done intentionally to make Dany sympathetic before pulling the rug out when she gets Westeros. I don't think GRRM would devote the amount of words and time on Dany's arc if that was the case.

I think Dany is much more of a flawed idealist than a cynical and amoral criminal.

I don't know where GRRM is taking her story. I could never see her as someone who revels in human suffering. I could see her as being someone whose moral compass has become so skewed as to make her a danger to the rest of the world.

[MoIaF]

Hi all,

This is a very fascinating discussion (Dany's moral compass) and I really want to delve in further once we get to the appropriate chapters. For now thought we should stay on topic within the chapter already discussed.

Thanks!! :D

[Parwan]

I agree, but its hard trying to argue this with certain posters, especially where Dany is concerned. 1. I get tired of people implying this exactly the case with Dany and the slavers in Essos. I do not agree all her enemies are "one dimensional mustache twirling cartoon villains" as some claim, and this is done intentionally to make Dany sympathetic before pulling the rug out when she gets Westeros. 2. I don't think GRRM would devote the amount of words and time on Dany's arc if that was the case.

1. I pretty much agree with what you say here. It's a matter for later discussion.

2. GRRM has already devoted quite a few words to Dany after 3 POVs. We can discuss some relevant matters at this point in the story. (See below.)

1. I think Dany is much more of a flawed idealist than a cynical and amoral criminal.

I don't know where GRRM is taking her story. I could never see her as someone who revels in human suffering.

2. I could see her as being someone whose moral compass has become so skewed as to make her a danger to the rest of the world.

1. Similar to my #2 above. (See below.)

2. The ways her moral compass might be said to become skewed occur mostly in later POVs.

Hi all,

This is a very fascinating discussion (Dany's moral compass) and I really want to delve in further once we get to the appropriate chapters. For now thought we should stay on topic within the chapter already discussed.

Thanks!! :D

Okay, let's look at the story as we have it after a few hundred pages and 3 Dany POVs.

One important subject is slavery. The institution is an integral part of Dany's world. She does not object to it. For example, she receives 3 handmaids as a wedding gift. This does not cause her any moral qualms. You wouldn't expect it to, would you? I can't see any basis for calling her evil because she does not condemn slavery at this point. For Viserys, the matter is a bit more complicated. He is the one who is supposed to be the true king, the one who knows about Westeros, the one who should be restored to his proper place. As such, we have a basis for saying that he should know and observe the rules that govern the seven kingdoms. I think we can expect him to observe them even when he is in a foreign land. These rules are well enough known. Illyrio, for example, knows why Ser Jorah is in exile. He thinks the law against buying and selling "chattel" is ridiculous, but he knows it, and he discusses it with others. The supposed "true king" can't claim ignorance.

Marriage is another important institution. In our civilization, we see it as an agreement between two people (some would limit that to an agreement between a man and a woman). In the seven kingdoms (and probably in most places in Martin's world), it is a family matter. The society is male dominated, but this does not mean that any man can just go out and buy a bride. Boys and young men in particular have social obligations. We see this, for example, in Catelyn's thought in Cat II: "Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them…" Dany, in her early chapters, accepts her place. She has long presumed that she would marry Viserys. This is "the way it's supposed to be." Thus, the betrothal to a Dothraki khal comes as a shock to her. Here, we definitely have a basis for judging her brother harshly. There is a Targaryen tradition of marrying within the family. It is not as strong as Viserys claims, but that is not important for us. The young man has always claimed that the blood should be kept pure. He has emphasized this in talking to his sister. Now, without warning, he is going to sell her to a man he considers a savage. And there's no doubt that he considers the transaction a sale. If we can claim any basis for judging the morality of characters, then we surely can put at least this down as a good principle: They should abide by rules which they themselves proclaim. Viserys Targaryen fails to do this.

From what we know about families like the Starks and the Lannisters thus far, I find it very difficult to believe that a powerful man in such a family would tell a female relative something like this: I'm going to sell you to a guy I don't even respect. I'm doing this for my own good. It wouldn't matter to me if the man allowed all his men and even all his domestic stock to fuck you. All that matters is that I gain the advantage I'm looking for.

[SeanF]

From what we know about families like the Starks and the Lannisters thus far, I find it very difficult to believe that a powerful man in such a family would tell a female relative something like this: I'm going to sell you to a guy I don't even respect. I'm doing this for my own good. It wouldn't matter to me if the man allowed all his men and even all his domestic stock to fuck you. All that matters is that I gain the advantage I'm looking for.

Yes, Viserys is in a league of his own.

I couldn't even see Tywin Lannister or Walder Frey telling their offspring that they'd happily let their husband's servants and horses fuck them.

[MoIaF]

One important subject is slavery. The institution is an integral part of Dany's world. She does not object to it. For example, she receives 3 handmaids as a wedding gift. This does not cause her any moral qualms. You wouldn't expect it to, would you? I can't see any basis for calling her evil because she does not condemn slavery at this point. For Viserys, the matter is a bit more complicated. He is the one who is supposed to be the true king, the one who knows about Westeros, the one who should be restored to his proper place. As such, we have a basis for saying that he should know and observe the rules that govern the seven kingdoms. I think we can expect him to observe them even when he is in a foreign land. These rules are well enough known. Illyrio, for example, knows why Ser Jorah is in exile. He thinks the law against buying and selling "chattel" is ridiculous, but he knows it, and he discusses it with others. The supposed "true king" can't claim ignorance.

This is a really good point.

I was thinking about it and although Dany doesn't object to it, I imagine what she has seen of it is very limited. She has lived most of her life in the Free Cities (and in slave cities as well) but someone of her position in life, even if they were "beggars", would only interact with house-slaves for the most part. I imagine those types of slaves of treated rather well in comparison to other slaves and so Dany's view of what is to be a slave is probably, for the most part, based on that.

It wasn't until she saw the true horror of slavery, when she saw what Drogo's khalasar did to the Lhazareen and later the Unsullied that she truly began to question what she knew. I guess you would compare it to the difference between theory and practice. Right now Dany is in the theory stage, soon we'll see the practice.

[SeanF]

This is a really good point.

I was thinking about it and although Dany doesn't object to it, I imagine what she has seen of it is very limited. She has lived most of her life in the Free Cities (and in

slave cities as well) but someone of her position in life, even if they were "beggars", would only interact with house-slaves for the most part. I imagine those types of slaves of treated rather well in comparison to other slaves and so Dany's view of what is to be a slave is probably, for the most part, based on that.

It wasn't until she saw the true horror of slavery, when she saw what Drogo's khalasar did to the Lhazareen and later the Unsullied that she truly began to question what she knew. I guess you would compare it to the difference between theory and practice. Right now Dany is in the theory stage, soon we'll see the practice.

For all we know, Illyrio may be telling the truth when he says his people "love him well". Dany treats her handmaidens as friends. Xaro seems to treat his slaves pretty well. In general, household slaves probably are well-treated. They're valuable property, and most people prefer to be on good terms with the people they interact with daily.

As you say, it's when she sees the village being sacked, and learns how Unsullied are created, that she learns how the sausage is made. Unsullied, and slaves who get worked to death in brothels and mines, or forced to become gladiators **, or get chucked into bear pits, are in quite a different category.

** Oddly, the pit fighters have a lot of loyalty to Hizdahr, despite revolting against the Great Masters.

[Gogossos]

I don't know guys, I think being sold by Viserys had a longer, deeper impact than the images she saw in Astapor. There was a point in ADWD when she was basically out debated by Xaro (I think) and all she said was something along the lines of, she's been sold like a commodity and she knows how it felt. She was very lucky that she found a home with the Dothraki but I think the hurt of being sold endured nonetheless.

[MoIaF]

I don't know guys, I think being sold by Viserys had a longer, deeper impact than the images she saw in Astapor. There was a point in ADWD when she was basically out debated by Xaro (I think) and all she said was something along the lines of, she's been sold like a commodity and she knows how it felt. She was very lucky that she found a home with the Dothraki but I think the hurt of being sold endured nonetheless.

Oh, I didn't mean to make it sound like what happen to Dany wasn't important to her evolution on slavery. I guess that Dany having the life she always had, had learn to just deal with it and make the best of it. She found her inner strength; however, it wasn't until she saw what other people go through that she was able to realize that no everyone has that inner strength or even the same options she had.

I imagine that in many ways Dany will always feel a deep hurt to being sold by her brother, the person who was suppose to care for her treated her like a commodity. Her evolution on this matter speaks volumes of her empathy for other people. She just dealt with it but understood that other people don’t or should have to deal with it, and made up her mind to do something about it.

[MoIaF]

AGOT Daenerys IV

Through the Horse Gate of Vaes Dothrak

SUMMARY:

The chapter begins with Dany’s arrival at Vaes Dothrak. The first monument she encounter are the stallion gates that mark the entrance to the city, Dany curiously notes that although there are gates to the city there are no walls. As Ser Jorah, Viserys, and Dany make their way to the city they encounter a plethora of monuments none of which belong to the Dothraki – they are instead relics from the many cities the Dothraki have sacked.

Viserys is once again atop a horse, although it had not been easy for Dany to convince Drogo to allow her brother to ride again, she had to employ all the “pillow tricks” Doreah had thought her. Her brother unknowingly was being mocked by the Dothraki because A) he had to walk back to the camp after Dany took his horse away and B ) by accepting a ride in a cart, still not understanding that a man who does not ride a horse is less of a man. Viserys continues to be willfully ignorant of the Dothraki culture and insults them (cowardly) in the common tongue. After Dany argues with Viserys she begins to voice out loud for the first time the fact that her brother would never be able to take back the Seven Kingdom and considering whether someone worthier (like her son) could. She discusses this with Ser Jorah, who agrees with her about her brothers inability to wage a conquest of Westeros, saying “"Viserys couldn't sweep a stables with 10,000 brooms”. We also learn that Ser Jorah was exiled for selling poachers into slavery, he takes no responsibility for his actions and blames Ned Stark for all of it.

Once they arrive at Vaes Dothraki, Drogo has one of his bloodriders tell Dany that he is going to pay his respect to the Mother of Mountains (where only men are allowed) and leaves Dany alone for the evening and night. Dany thinks about the bloodriders and and wants her son to have both bloodriders and kingsguard to protect him from treachery, when/if he sits in the Iron Throne. Dany has Doreah ask Viserys if he would supper with her, she has her maids prepare a special meal sans horsemeat which her Viserys detest. Dany has also purchased gifts for her brother, clothes that are more suitable for the Dothraki environment. However, when Viserys comes to her he is already angered as her servant Doreah inadvertently told him his sister has summoned him when Dany in reality had invited him. Dany then tries to appease him explaining to him the error and shows him the gifts she had made for him. Viserys mockingly disparages the gifts as trash and grabs Dany harshly, she then uses a belt she gifted him to strike him so he would release her. Viserys leaves and Dany upset request one of her fossilized dragon eggs – she is brought the green one and while she lays in her matt cradling it she feels her son move inside her and thus calls him the real dragon.

OBSERVATIONS

• For the first time we get a more thorough understanding of Dothraki environment, culture and warfare abilities.
  
• We continue to see Dany’s bolder attitude towards her brother - she will no longer be bullied by him.
  
• For the second time we see that there is something more to the dragon eggs – they are not as stone as they would appear.
  
• Dany now considers the Dothraki her people.
  
• We see Dany mentioning Ser Barristan as a trader.
  

ANALYSIS

NOTE: This is primarily a world building chapter and there is little plot driven story. I’ll do my best to squeeze out as much analysis as possible.

A gift or a purchase

Ser Jorah explains to Dany how Dothraki do business:

“Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal.”

I see two issues here one of which we have already discussed. Firstly, although the Dothraki might not “believe” in purchase exchange, it’s quite clear from Dany II that Khal Drogo understood the concept, if he did not why then would he give such a fortune in slaves and horses to Illyrio for brokering his marriage to Dany? Was it for being the broker, but if it was a gift why would you need a broker? Did Khal Drogo and Illyrio make arrangements that excluded Viserys from the equation?

The most likely answer to me is that they did and once again I’ll state my suspicion that Khal Drogo was never going to give Viserys the army the Illyrio promised Khal Drogo would give him. I also want to note that Dany begins to realize that Drogo might be taking her brother along for a ride, she herself doesn’t fully understand the manner of the deal.

The second issue that comes to mind is something we’ve been discussing here for the past few days and it’s about Dany seeing herself as being sold. Now, if we look at it from where we are now, her brother gave her away for free and/or Illyrio sold her. However, whatever arrangements where made in whichever manner Dany was either sold or given away both of which are highly degrading to her as a person and as a woman. She was looked at as no more than a prize to be bartered away and yet she still managed accept her fate and make the best of it.

Warrior: Dothraki

Ser Jorah gives us an interesting insight into the Dothraki’s as warrior as well as a comparison to them and the knights of Westeros. Ser Jorah has a high regard for the skills of the Dothraki especially atop horseback; as their archers can both ride and shoot arrows, unlike the Westerosi archers who are stationary. He says of the 40,000 Dothraki warriors who form Drogo’s khalasar:

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?

Where the Dothraki would fail poorly is their lack of understanding of siegecraft, however, I wonder how formable they would be if they were commanded by a Westerosi commander leading the way. I think this is something to keep in mind for later chapters as we know Dany is now in the Dothraki Sea and might come into a substantial khalasar of her own.

Culture: Dothraki

While riding trough Dany encounters many statues of the different cities the Dothraki have plundered. Everything in Vaes Dothrak is either stolen from other places or has been built by the slaves the Dothraki have taken from their raids as the Dothraki “do not build”. I suppose that like the dragon, the Dothraki “don’t plant trees”.

Vaes Dothrak is a large city in that it’s a huge landmass, however, if has few permeant residents and even fewer budding. The only permeant residents of Vaes Dothrak are the crones of the dosh khaleen and their slaves and servants. However, it is prophesied that one day all the khalasars will gather there and so their land must be large enough to welcome all of them. Once again we should keep an eye on this for TWoW as I think we might see something to this.

In Vaes Dothrak it is forbidden to carry a blade or to shed a free man’s blood. I didn’t notice the free man’s part the first time, I suppose that if they want to punish a slave they’ve allowed themselves that wiggle room.

We learn about the intimate nature of the bloodriders - they are the khal’s shadow, “the ancient tradition of the horse lords demanded that when the khal dies, his bloodriders dies with him, to ride at his side in the night lands.” In some khalasar the blood riders share the Khal’s wives, but never his horses. This speaks to us about how Drogo views Dany, he obviously has some degree of respect for her as he does not share her.

No brotherly love

Dany feels bad about taking the horse away from Viserys and the contempt with which the Dothraki see him now. As she is discussing the men Khal Drogo “promised” her brother she detents Viserys right to them saying about Drogo: “It is not right to make him wait”. She doesn't understand why she continues to defend him but feels like she must as his sister.

However, Viserys continues to be cruel towards her, ignoring what he sister had to do to give him back his place in the khalasar. After everything that has happened with them Viserys still does not understand that he can no longer bully and abuse his sister no matter whether he is her “king” or not.

it was a really sad moment when Dany felt once again the rejection of her brother. She had her maids prepare him a good meal he would enjoy, she purchased him new clothes and yet he yelled and mocked her for it. In the pass Dany would have coward away form him, now she gets agree at him and yet the pain is still there.

To blend or not to blend…

Once again we see the stark contrast of Dany’s ability to adapt and embrace the Dothraki culture and her brothers inability to do either. He insults the Dothraki for being filthy and smelly yet he does not see that he himself is filthy and smelly.

I don;t know if he is completely oblivious to this fact or that he thinks that because ti’s him it’s okay. He believes himself superior and yet is too ignorant to see that he is looked down upon by almost everyone in the khalasar. Viserys I know believe was never going to survive this trip.

Dragon strength

After Dany’s argument with her brother she request that one of her dragon eggs be brought to her, she is brought the green one. She says:

“She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.”

Once again we see the growing bond of Dany and her fossilized dragon eggs. She continues to get strength from them, to me this isn’t psychological, I believe it to be a true bond. The dragons inside the eggs are waking and they are feeding from Dany as she is feeding from them.

“She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.”

I wonder if Dany is confusing her inner dragon with that of her son’s and I also wonder if her dream of home is Westeros…

Miscellaneous notes:

• The Mother of Mountains in purple
  
• Viserys likes to refer to himself in the third person (“The dragons speaks as he likes”, “The dragon is not mocked”)
  
• The first time we hear about a prophecy (the Stallion who Mounts the World) - Viserys refers to it as a “mummer’s show”
  
• Dorgo’s bloodriders were sexually abusing Dany’s handmaids.
  

[DragonDreamer]

AGOT Daenerys IV

Through the Horse Gate of Vaes Dothrak

ANALYSIS

NOTE: This is primarily a world building chapter and there is little plot driven story. I’ll do my best to squeeze out as much analysis as possible.

A gift or a purchase

Ser Jorah explains to Dany how Dothraki do business:

“Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal.”

I see two issues here one of which we have already discussed. Firstly, although the Dothraki might not “believe” in purchase exchange, it’s quite clear from Dany II that Khal Drogo understood the concept, if he did not why then would he give such a fortune in slaves and horses to Illyrio for brokering his marriage to Dany? Was it for being the broker, but if it was a gift why would you need a broker? Did Khal Drogo and Illyrio make arrangements that excluded Viserys from the equation?

The most likely answer to me is that they did and once again I’ll state my suspicion that Khal Drogo was never going to give Viserys the army the Illyrio promised Khal Drogo would give him. I also want to note that Dany begins to realize that Drogo might be taking her brother along for a ride, she herself doesn’t fully understand the manner of the deal.

The second issue that comes to mind is something we’ve been discussing here for the past few days and it’s about Dany seeing herself as being sold. Now, if we look at it from where we are now, her brother gave her away for free and/or Illyrio sold her. However, whatever arrangements where made in whichever manner Dany was either sold or given away both of which are highly degrading to her as a person and as a woman. She was looked at as no more than a prize to be bartered away and yet she still managed accept her fate and make the best of it.

Warrior: Dothraki

Ser Jorah gives us an interesting insight into the Dothraki’s as warrior as well as a comparison to them and the knights of Westeros. Ser Jorah has a high regard for the skills of the Dothraki especially atop horseback; as their archers can both ride and shoot arrows, unlike the Westerosi archers who are stationary. He says of the 40,000 Dothraki warriors who form Drogo’s khalasar:

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?

Where the Dothraki would fail poorly is their lack of understanding of siegecraft, however, I wonder how formable they would be if they were commanded by a Westerosi commander leading the way. I think this is something to keep in mind for later chapters as we know Dany is now in the Dothraki Sea and might come into a substantial khalasar of her own.

I find this to be an interesting juxtaposition of the role of Jorah. While he has many faults in many ways he has been an invaluable source of knowledge and information for Daenerys.

His knowledge of Essosi cultures is quite extensive and he is also fairly knowledgable of Westeros. Where I think he falters is that he allows his personal feeling to cloud his judgement and thus tarnish his advice at times.

It's also interesting to note that Jorah blames Ned for his exile, rarely if ever he takes responsibility for his actions and yet he never blames Daenerys when he is exiled once again. Could it be because he loves her or because he has grown as a person, who knows.

[SeanF]

Many thanks for this. A couple of points:-

1. We'll learn in ADWD that the Golden Company were expecting Viserys to turn up with a Khalasar, near Volantis. It's possible that Illyrio could have been lying to them, as well as to Viserys, but to what end? And, would Illyrio (and Varys) really go to the trouble and expense of arranging the marriage, (Illyrio will talk to Tyrion about "years of planning") just so Illyrio could get some slaves and horses? I'm inclined to think that actually Drogo would eventually, have fulfilled his side of the bargain. Illyrio just wasn't expecting Viserys to behave so disastrously.

2. Ser Jorah's comments about the quality of soldiers in Westeros, in comparison to the Dothraki, sound wise, but like his comments about the Smallfolk in the previous chapter, are partly contradicted by what we see in the books. One battle which we see in detail, Green Fork, shows both the Stark and Lannister infantry to be formidable and well-disciplined. As it happens, mail coats and padded jacks can afford pretty good protection against archers on horseback. Longbows held by infantry are likely to outrange the sorts of bows that horse-archers can carry. I don't doubt that the Dothraki are formidable on their home territory, the grasslands. But, their lack of armour would make them very vulnerable to steel-clad knights and men-at-arms, if they fought them at close quarters.

In fact, we see both Ser Jorah, and later, Ser Barristan, killing fast and deadly fighters who make the mistake of not wearing armour.

[MoIaF]

Many thanks for this. A couple of points:-

1. We'll learn in ADWD that the Golden Company were expecting Viserys to turn up with a Khalasar, near Volantis. It's possible that Illyrio could have been lying to them, as well as to Viserys, but to what end? And, would Illyrio (and Varys) really go to the trouble and expense of arranging the marriage, (Illyrio will talk to Tyrion about "years of planning") just so Illyrio could get some slaves and horses? I'm inclined to think that actually Drogo would eventually, have fulfilled his side of the bargain. Illyrio just wasn't expecting Viserys to behave so disastrously.

2. Ser Jorah's comments about the quality of soldiers in Westeros, in comparison to the Dothraki, sound wise, but like his comments about the Smallfolk in the previous chapter, are partly contradicted by what we see in the books. One battle which we see in detail, Green Fork, shows both the Stark and Lannister infantry to be formidable and well-disciplined. As it happens, mail coats and padded jacks can afford pretty good protection against archers on horseback. Longbows held by infantry are likely to outrange the sorts of bows that horse-archers can carry. I don't doubt that the Dothraki are formidable on their home territory, the grasslands. But, their lack of armour would make them very vulnerable to steel-clad knights and men-at-arms, if they fought them at close quarters.

In fact, we see both Ser Jorah, and later, Ser Barristan, killing fast and deadly fighters who make the mistake of not wearing armour.

You are very welcome. :)

1. To be honest I don't know how well thought out of a plan Illyrio had. If he had been keeping tabs on Viserys he must have had a good understanding of him as a person. How could he have imagine that Drogo would respect Viserys enough to gift him 10,000 Dothraki soldiers when even at Illyrio's manse he could easily tell that Viserys was a pathetic and cowedly individual. He had asked Viserys to stay with him in Pentos and yet it seems he didn't make too much of an effort to have him stay.

A lot of this doesn't make sense to me and quite frankly there is very little I believe of what Illyrio says. It just seems to me that there was a whole lot of planing that must have been going on for a long time and yet Illyrio put his faith in Viserys to get and deliver 10,00 Dothraki soldiers to Westeros. That just seems like poor planning.

2. I think his comments are generally useful in that he understands both warfare in Essos and Westeros, although as you mention he isn't going to be right all of the time. I do note that the Dothraki as soldiers might be more effective in Westeros if they are being commanded by a Westerosi. They'd equipped them properly and they can be played to their strengths. A Westorosi commander would understand Westeros warfare but few in Westeros would have intimate knowledge of the capabilities of the Dothraki (and later the Unsullied). I don't think they should be underestimated. With the coming winter only the Northern forces will have the advantage of being "comfortable" with the climate - the Southern forces will have a lot of the same disadvantages that the Eastern forces have with regard to comfort with the winter and the snow.

Going back to the chapter though I think GRRM was trying to show us that the Dothraki are not just these savages that loot and plunder (althought that's a big part of it :D )

ETA: for clarification.

[Parwan]

...

2. Ser Jorah's comments about the quality of soldiers in Westeros, in comparison to the Dothraki, sound wise, but like his comments about the Smallfolk in the previous chapter, are partly contradicted by what we see in the books. One battle which we see in detail, Green Fork, shows both the Stark and Lannister infantry to be formidable and well-disciplined. As it happens, mail coats and padded jacks can afford pretty good protection against archers on horseback. Longbows held by infantry are likely to outrange the sorts of bows that horse-archers can carry. I don't doubt that the Dothraki are formidable on their home territory, the grasslands. But, their lack of armour would make them very vulnerable to steel-clad knights and men-at-arms, if they fought them at close quarters.

In fact, we see both Ser Jorah, and later, Ser Barristan, killing fast and deadly fighters who make the mistake of not wearing armour.

Jorah is probably right on this matter. A battle isn't single combat, and Jorah had some luck in his fight with the horselord. More importantly, a large Dothraki army would have significant tactical and strategic advantages over a Westerosi force of similar size. GRRM is not an historian, and I am definitely not a military historian. However, I believe that the Dothraki are based in part upon the Mongols and that military historians agree that the Mongol hordes were thoroughly superior to any European force featuring mounted knights.

This certainly makes sense from what we know about warfare in Westeros and Essos. Let's say that the arrows used everywhere in Martin's world are all about the same. This is a reasonable assumption. We have no way of being sure about the matter. If we try to debate it, we will almost certainly get nowhere. The bows of archers on foot may well be more powerful than those of mounted archers. However, you also have to take into account the speed of the horse. Let's say a Westerosi arrow leaves the bow with a speed of 140 feet per second and a Dothraki arrow only 115 feet per second. When the Dothraki fires, however, he may have brought his horse to a speed of 35 feet per second or more. The speed relative to the target at which he is firing will be 150 fps. Thus, his arrow will have a greater range than that of the man on foot. Also, the Dothraki will be aiming at a stationary target, the Westerosi at a moving one. The horsemen can vary their speed, change direction when they wish, etc. They grow up on horseback; they practice mounted archery a lot, probably a good bit more than the average Westerosi practices his skill.

The last part there brings up a general point of significance--maneuverability. This would probably be a tremendous advantage for the horselords. The nature of the battlefield would be important, but unless the Westerosi commander was very careful to choose a field where he was absolutely confident of protection for his rear and flanks, the Dothraki would be likely to overwhelm him. They could literally ride circles around his army. His fighters wouldn't know where the next volley was going to come from. This would not only lead to a kill ratio much in favor of his enemy, it would demoralize his men, most of whom would not be knights, some of whom might be sellswords. And that leads to the last point. The Dothraki are a warrior people. Fighting is what they do. Such is not the case for the Westerosi. When the banners are called, most men called are peasants. Sure, the Starks and Lannisters fought hard at the Greenfork. That, however, was early in the war, and they were fighting against men who used tactics for which they were well prepared. A revealing view of things is given by Septon Maribald in AFfC. Young men start off thinking of war as an adventure. It isn't long before the adventure turns sour--

"And one day…they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes , shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground." This is bad when they have to stand against knights. It would be worse against the Dothraki.

[Fire Eater]

Good job again, Maester of Ice and Fire

Viserys continues to be an Aerion Brightflame, a spoiled, over-entitled, half-mad dumbass. Dany finally manages to fight back against Viserys, and stand up for herself without aid from anyone else.

We also see Jorah portray Ned in a negative light, telling Dany that Ned had driven him from his home, when Jorah had broken the law that has roots in both the Old Gods and the Seven in regarding slavery as an abomination. I think this is to set Dany against the Starks further story-wise.

Monsters stood in the grass beside the road, black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name.

This foreshadows Dany facing Aegon, a black dragon, and the griffin, Connington, and the manticore is the Sorrowful Men's attempted assassination of her.

Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mist of time.

The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones . . . I scream I am not a Stark

[Jon] show her the stone kings on their thrones

A possible connection between Jon and Dany? Or could this foreshadow Dany visiting WF?

yet Vaes Dothrak is large enough to house every man of every khalasar, should all the khals return to the Mother at once.

Dany's nickname among the freedmen is "Mother," and I think this foreshadows Dany consolidating all the khalasars in Vaes Dothrak in TWoW.

Blood ran down his cheek where the edge of one of the medallions had sliced it open.

If anyone saw Viserys coming out of Dany's tent, they would take it that she broke one the most sacred rules in Vaes Dothrak: never spill any blood; a rule taken as seriously as guest right in Westeros. If Jhaqo heard that he may give Dany to the dosh khaleen to be given a trial.

[SeanF]

Jorah is probably right on this matter. A battle isn't single combat, and Jorah had some luck in his fight with the horselord. More importantly, a large Dothraki army would have significant tactical and strategic advantages over a Westerosi force of similar size. GRRM is not an historian, and I am definitely not a military historian. However, I believe that the Dothraki are based in part upon the Mongols and that military historians agree that the Mongol hordes were thoroughly superior to any European force featuring mounted knights.

This certainly makes sense from what we know about warfare in Westeros and Essos. Let's say that the arrows used everywhere in Martin's world are all about the same. This is a reasonable assumption. We have no way of being sure about the matter. If we try to debate it, we will almost certainly get nowhere. The bows of archers on foot may well be more powerful than those of mounted archers. However, you also have to take into account the speed of the horse. Let's say a Westerosi

arrow leaves the bow with a speed of 140 feet per second and a Dothraki arrow only 115 feet per second. When the Dothraki fires, however, he may have brought

his horse to a speed of 35 feet per second or more. The speed relative to the target at which he is firing will be 150 fps. Thus, his arrow will have a greater range than that of the man on foot. Also, the Dothraki will be aiming at a stationary target, the Westerosi at a moving one. The horsemen can vary their speed, change direction when they wish, etc. They grow up on horseback; they practice mounted archery a lot, probably a good bit more than the average Westerosi practices his skill.

The last part there brings up a general point of significance--maneuverability. This would probably be a tremendous advantage for the horselords. The nature of the battlefield would be important, but unless the Westerosi commander was very careful to choose a field where he was absolutely confident of protection for his rear and flanks, the Dothraki would be likely to overwhelm him. They could literally ride circles around his army. His fighters wouldn't know where the next volley was going to come from. This would not only lead to a kill ratio much in favor of his enemy, it would demoralize his men, most of whom would not be knights, some of whom might be sellswords. And that leads to the last point. The Dothraki are a warrior people. Fighting is what they do. Such is not the case for the Westerosi. When the

banners are called, most men called are peasants. Sure, the Starks and Lannisters fought hard at the Greenfork. That, however, was early in the war, and they were

fighting against men who used tactics for which they were well prepared. A revealing view of things is given by Septon Maribald in AFfC. Young men start off thinking of war as an adventure. It isn't long before the adventure turns sour--

"And one daythey are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes , shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground." This is bad when they have to stand against knights. It would be worse against the Dothraki.

Crucially, though, the Mongols wore armour, when fighting European knights, and used far more sophisticated tactics than the wild head-on charge the Dothraki employed at Qohor. Martin's not a historian, but he's read widely on medieval warfare. However, if the Dothraki can be persuaded to adapt, then I agree with Maester they'd become more formidable.

The Dothraki are a warrior culture, but so would be many of their opponents in Westeros. Knights and men-at-arms train every day. Footmen who can handle pikes and bows, and fight in formation would be well-trained, if they're like their medieval counterparts.

I accept that the choice of the ground, and respective skills of the commanders, on either side, would be crucial in determining who won.

[Parwan]

Crucially, though, the Mongols wore armour, when fighting European knights, and used far more sophisticated tactics than the wild head-on charge the Dothraki employed at Qohor. Martin's not a historian, but he's read widely on medieval warfare. However, if the Dothraki can be persuaded to adapt, then I agree with Maester they'd become more formidable.

The Dothraki are a warrior culture, but so would be many of their opponents in Westeros. Knights and men-at-arms train every day. Footmen who can handle pikes and bows, and fight in formation would be well-trained, if they're like their medieval counterparts.

I accept that the choice of the ground, and respective skills of the commanders, on either side, would be crucial in determining who won.

Jorah appears to be the only person who has seen both the Westerosi and Dothraki armies in action. I think his evaluation of what he has actually seen is far more likely to be accurate than his retelling of an event that happened 400 years or so ago. The man wasn't there. He has no way of knowing that the Dothraki used repeated wild head-on charges against the Unsullied. His description of current Dothraki tactics works against his claim of a horselord preference for wild head-on charges, supposedly a sort of cultural prejudice that wouldn't apply to Weserosi armies any way. (They aren't composed only of foot soldiers.) If the warriors of 4 centuries ago were absolutely dedicated to using such tactics against infantry, then there is no reason to believe that they would not have learned from the event at Qohor. Also, Jorah's telling of how the Unsullied defended themselves against Dothraki arrows doesn't sound convincing. Again, the horsemen have a tremendous advantage of maneuverability. There is no reason for them to simply fire their arrows into the air and allow their enemies to raise their shields above their heads. The thing to do would be to have multiple companies firing at different angles. Some could ride in close and fire at point blank range. Even if Khal Temmo didn't think of this, some khal should have been able to come up with the idea in 400 years time.

Knights train, as do men at arms. A crucial question is "How many such men will a large army have?" Jorah's answer is, "not that many." He's likely to be right. A large Westerosi army will probably have a great many fighters similar to the ones Septon Maribald spoke about. This is particularly likely to be the case now, after a lot of fighting on the western continent.

[MoIaF]

Good job again, Maester of Ice and Fire

Viserys continues to be an Aerion Brightflame, a spoiled, over-entitled, half-mad dumbass. Dany finally manages to fight back against Viserys, and stand up for herself without aid from anyone else.

1. We also see Jorah portray Ned in a negative light, telling Dany that Ned had driven him from his home, when Jorah had broken the law that has roots in both the Old Gods and the Seven in regarding slavery as an abomination. I think this is to set Dany against the Starks further story-wise.

2. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road, black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name.

This foreshadows Dany facing Aegon, a black dragon, and the griffin, Connington, and the manticore is the Sorrowful Men's attempted assassination of her.

3. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mist of time.

The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones . . . I scream I am not a Stark

[Jon] show her the stone kings on their thrones

A possible connection between Jon and Dany? Or could this foreshadow Dany visiting WF?

4. yet Vaes Dothrak is large enough to house every man of every khalasar, should all the khals return to the Mother at once.

Dany's nickname among the freedmen is "Mother," and I think this foreshadows Dany consolidating all the khalasars in Vaes Dothrak in TWoW.

5. Blood ran down his cheek where the edge of one of the medallions had sliced it open.

If anyone saw Viserys coming out of Dany's tent, they will take it that she broke one the most sacred rules in Vaes Dothrak: never spill any blood; a rule taken as seriously as guest right in Westeros. If Jhaqo heard that he may give Dany to the dosh khaleen to be given a trial.

Thank you! :D

1. I did notice that Dany referred to Ned as Lord Stark at this point. I can't be good that Ser Jorah is feeding into her brother's hatred of the Starks.

2. Good observation - don't we also hear about another black iron dragon. The one that was hanging from a pub that was thrown into the water and rusted red - I can’t recall the specifics right now.

3. That’s an interesting observation. It's almost certain that they will meet; perhaps they'll meet in Winterfell on Dany's way to the wall.

4. I'm of the belief that Dany will be names the Stallion who Mounts the World by the dosh khaleen, if that happens then it would make sense for the khalasars to convene at Vaes Dothrak.

5. I was thinking the same thing...

[MoIaF]

Jorah appears to be the only person who has seen both the Westerosi and Dothraki armies in action. I think his evaluation of what he has actually seen is far more likely to be accurate than his retelling of an event that happened 400 years or so ago. The man wasn't there. He has no way of knowing that the Dothraki used repeated wild head-on charges against the Unsullied. His description of current Dothraki tactics works against his claim of a horselord preference for wild head-on charges, supposedly a sort of cultural prejudice that wouldn't apply to Weserosi armies any way. (They aren't composed only of foot soldiers.) If the warriors of 4 centuries ago were absolutely dedicated to using such tactics against infantry, then there is no reason to believe that they would not have learned from the event at Qohor. Also, Jorah's telling of how the Unsullied defended themselves against Dothraki arrows doesn't sound convincing. Again, the horsemen have a tremendous advantage of maneuverability. There is no reason for them to simply fire their arrows into the air and allow their enemies to raise their shields above their heads. The thing to do would be to have multiple companies firing at different angles. Some could ride in close and fire at point blank range. Even if Khal Temmo didn't think of this, some khal should have been able to come up with the idea in 400 years time.

Knights train, as do men at arms. A crucial question is "How many such men will a large army have?" Jorah's answer is, "not that many." He's likely to be right. A large Westerosi army will probably have a great many fighters similar to the ones Septon Maribald spoke about. This is particularly likely to be the case now, after a lot of fighting on the western continent.

Excellent as always Parwan!

Agree with you completely, especially on the observation that the Dothraki have probably learned a thing or two about warfare in the past 400 years. This isn't to say that they would run over the armies of Westeros, but they'd give them a run for their money.

[DragonDreamer]

Viserys continues to be an Aerion Brightflame, a spoiled, over-entitled, half-mad dumbass. Dany finally manages to fight back against Viserys, and stand up for herself without aid from anyone else.

Viserys is a sad excuse for a "king". There are points when you want to feel sorry for him because of what he had to go threw due to his exile, but then he opens his mouth and you don't feel sorry for him anymore.

I think there might be a bit for foreshadowing in the chapter of what will trigger Viserys’ death:

“You forget yourself, slut. Do you think that big belly will protect you if you wake the dragon?

Her "big belly" did protect her; it was his threat to her unborn child that finally got him his "golden crown".

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thanks for the analysis Master of ice and Fire.

Viserys at this point is acting like the Mummer's Dragon himself, he keeps referring to himself as 'the dragon' but really he is just a big stupid joke to everyone around him. Even his sister and Jorah completely doubt him and seem to just be tolerating his presence at this point. I think Dany has started to realize that her and her eggs are the Real Dragons around this camp, while Viserys is nothing more than a pathetic bully. IMO he is even worse than Aerion in D&E, nothing Viserys says is substantial at all, and he is clearly such a weakling physically as well. He is happy to ride the cart with the weaklings, I bet you Rhaegar could have kept up with this Khalasar on his horse. Not only that, but his 14 year old very pregnant sister is now stronger in mind and physically tougher than him at this point. She whips him with the belt and orders him out, and he scampers off with his tail between his legs. I think a lot of the 'Targaryen hate' on this forum stems from him and his ridiculous, selfish behavior in GOT. I wish we had a better male representative to look to in these books......

The other thing I was thinking about is that Vaes Dothrak in general is a metaphor for our little khalasar at this point. We have Dany and Viserys, lone wanderers, exiles, fugitives who really do not belong in the dothraki sea at all, much like Jorah; what is he even doing here? Kicked out of Westeros and latching on to Dany because really he doesn't have many other options. and then there is the Khalasar, made up of a group of wandering nomads who have no real home, and all have been pieced together over the years of Drogo's rule by raids, attacks, take-overs and who knows what else. My point is they are all just heaped together by chance really, that and the strong leadership and ambition of Khal Drogo, which is later represented by how fast they all depart once he dies, he is the glue that bonds this entire group together. Vaes Dothrak is a collection of random stuff from all over, none of it originated there, it is a thrown together bunch of statues and relics all of which have nothing to do with each other. I think GRRM is showing us that these people have no real loyalty to each other by showing how their holy city is just a collection of random stuff from wherever. Whatever meaning or importance any of the statues had that now reside in Vaes Dothrak is long gone. Now they are just a grouped together bunch of stuff that have nothing to do with each other. Much like Drogo's khalasar with Dany, Viserys and Jorah; a group of lost souls who band together for a short while but are easily broken up.........if that makes sense to everyone ??