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Possible Crackpot: Did Aerys foresee Jon's birth?


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Another idea that isn't mine (all credit to Ser Leftwich and J. Stargaryen), but that I saw, loved and thought needed more widespread attention.

We know that least some Targaryens have prophetic dragon dreams, and that in at least some (maybe even all ...) of these cases, the dragons in question are metaphorical/symbolic, not literal. It's possible for the dreamer to recognize the symbolism and maybe even apply that symbolism to himself or herself.

As J. Stargaryen pointed out, look at the exchange between Daeron and Dunk in The Mystery Knight.

“Did I? Well, it’s so. My dreams are not like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. You frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead.”
“Did I kill it?”
“That I could not say, but you were there, and so was the dragon. We were the masters of dragons once, we Targaryens. Now they are all gone, but we remain. I don’t care to die today. The gods alone know why, but I don’t. So do me a kindness if you would, and make certain it is my brother Aerion you slay.”

Daeron saying, "I don't care to die today" implies that he recognizes the possibility that 1. a dragon could (does?) mean a Targaryen and 2. it might even mean him.

Now fast forward to Aerys. (ETA: From here on out, this is Ser Leftwich's line of thinking.) We're told he thought that if he destroyed the city, he would rise out of it as a dragon, an actual dragon. Obviously this makes him nuttier than squirrel poo, but what made him think this? Where did he get this idea, this inspiration? It's a fairly specific, in-order idea: Destroy the city first, and a dragon hatches.

What if Aerys had a prophetic dream of a dragon hatching out of the ruins of the city, and applied that dream to himself? Rather than Daeron's metaphorical interpretation, Aerys chooses to apply it literally and, given his apparent obsession with dragon imagery and blood purity, believes his dream is in reference to him? That gives him both the inspiration and motive to attempt to burn the city down, if he thought that it was going to happen or that it needed to happen in order to be reborn as a dragon.

Obviously Aerys wasn't reborn as a dragon, and the city didn't succumb to wildfire, but it was heavily damaged by the Sack and the human toll was obviously immense. We know that Jon's birth is timed to around the time of the Sack to fairly soon after it. What if Aerys did have some prophetic vision, but that rather than wildfire and himself, it was the Sack he saw, and Jon's birth, which closely followed it? Jon's birth already fits another "dragon hatching/waking" parameter: "Two kings to wake the dragon." Aerys died, and then Aegon died, and then Jon was born.

Obviously with this you have to look at an outcome and work backward based on what happened. It's the same sort of thinking that's applied to surmise that Rhaegar is the dragon that hatched at Summerhall and that perhaps Aegon V and/or Duncan the Small killed themselves trying to fulfill a prophecy that they might not have ever had pegged correctly. We also have people in D&E interpreting dragon dreams incorrectly: Daemon II thinks he'll hatch a real dragon at Whitewalls, and it's actually Egg coming of age; Daeron recognizes that his dragon dream might be metaphorical, but never pegs it to mean Baelor Breakspear. If Aerys is acting out based on some dragon-themed thing, does it not make sense that he could be acting on something he saw in a dream? And might it not equally make sense, given how similar dreams have unfolded in the past, that he was wrong (which would be obvious given what happened) and the vision came to pass in some other way?

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Ah. An enticing idea. Paranoid, check, burning people, check, overreacting, vengeful, yes, the part about letting Robert be king over ashes and charred bones is in character, but where does the idea of being reborn as a dragon fit? There indeed could have been some kind of inspiration which kicked this in.


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It's been coming into focus that Aerys had his reasons. The maesters had something coming for him and his. His family was potentially about to knock him off. The Starks were uppety. He heard the footsteps. Killing two kings of the north in that gruesome display in the throneroom was I think another attempt to nudge the dragon awake, even before the main city-burning try.



They're always trying to wake actual dragons, and all they ever get is a Targ comes of age. In a magical world, that streak can't hold up forever. Someone's eventually gonna wake as a dragon.

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What if the Mad king was Jon's father? It would be interesting because it seems so unlikely. At face value we see that Prince Rhaegar has a thing for Lyanna, but behind the scenes we see a bitter paranoid king who loathes his son. Rhaegar doesn't seem like a atrocious character, however we do know that the Mad king was capable of rape. So what i'm getting at is that there is a possibility that the Mad king raped Lyanna to spite his son. Which would make Jon the kings bastard, also only the king or queen may command the Kings guard thus would explain why they (ie. Arthur Dayne) were guarding Lyanna in the tower of joy. Also


In an interview, Alfie Allen said

"You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.


Thus would clear up the Luke/Leia Dilemma with Daenerys which would make the Mad King/Darth Vader which might really mess Jon up. Though we can only hope it's Rhaegar and not my hypothesis.

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What if the Mad king was Jon's father? It would be interesting because it seems so unlikely. At face value we see that Prince Rhaegar has a thing for Lyanna, but behind the scenes we see a bitter paranoid king who loathes his son. Rhaegar doesn't seem like a atrocious character, however we do know that the Mad king was capable of rape. So what i'm getting at is that there is a possibility that the Mad king raped Lyanna to spite his son. Which would make Jon the kings bastard, also only the king or queen may command the Kings guard thus would explain why they (ie. Arthur Dayne) were guarding Lyanna in the tower of joy. Also

In an interview, Alfie Allen said

"You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.

Thus would clear up the Luke/Leia Dilemma with Daenerys which would make the Mad King/Darth Vader which might really mess Jon up. Though we can only hope it's Rhaegar and not my hypothesis.

I don't think Aerys is Jon's father. For one thing, Lyanna was off the grid when Jon was conceived; no one knew exactly where she was, and she wouldn't have been near Aerys to be impregnated by him.

I think people read too much into the Star Wars analogy. Just remember that for all Jon knows, Rhaegar is something of a Darth Vader figure, too.

As for the Kingsguard, they would have obeyed Rhaegar's orders so long as Aerys didn't give one that conflicted with them.

Aerys has been pressured with prophecy since being a teenager (the GoHH predictions). He is destined to be less important than one of his descendents. That can mess up anyone.

That might also explain his obsession with Rhaegar marrying within the family, such that he sent Steffon all the way to Essos. If he knows that his line will produce the future PtwP, he would want that offspring to be as "Targaryen" as possible.

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Ah. An enticing idea. Paranoid, check, burning people, check, overreacting, vengeful, yes, the part about letting Robert be king over ashes and charred bones is in character, but where does the idea of being reborn as a dragon fit? There indeed could have been some kind of inspiration which kicked this in.

Well, he was certainly inspired to copulation with Rhaella everytime he burned something. Perhaps to Aerys the birds and the bees were the dragons and the beasts. Digressing!

To get back to the OP perhaps it was Daenarys he was shooting for (pardon the nasty pun), not Jon.

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Jon's birth already fits another "dragon hatching/waking" parameter:

"Two kings to wake the dragon." Aerys died, and then Aegon died, and then Jon was born.

Doesn't fit...

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings.

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To get back to the OP perhaps it was Daenarys he was shooting for (pardon the nasty pun), not Jon.

I was waiting for someone to suggest this. Jon is actually born closer to the Sack, possibly even during it or very soon after it. Dany isn't born until almost nine months later. Based on that timeline, who's the more logical candidate?

Speaking of ... even though Dany has what could be construed as dragon dreams that could feature literal dragons (she seems to dream about Drogon before he hatches), to my knowledge no one has ever had a dragon dream where Dany was the dragon. Not in the sense that Daeron saw Baelor and Daemon saw Egg and maybe the Ghost of High Heart saw Rhaegar.

Doesn't fit...

Is it necessary for it to be a father and a son, or only necessary for it to be two kings? In the case of Mance and his son, it has to be a father and a son dying in succession, in order for both to die kings, and because Mance and his son are the only candidates available. You can't kill the son and then the father, because the son wouldn't die a king. The critical part isn't "the father and then the son," it's "so both die kings." If you read it that way -- it's two kings in general, and the father-son thing is specific to Mance and his son so that both die as kings to fulfill that requirement -- then yeah Aerys and Aegon most certainly fit.

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Definitely could make sense(even though I don't think aerys needed a dragon dream to do something this extreme at that point in his life) and I think the targ dreams are and will be a major part of the series; especially if its ever revealed what dream caused the targs to leave valyria before the doom, causing their line to survive and eventually produce who we all believe to be tptwp (Jon Snarkyen)



Also whats your opinion on how the glass candles figure into the targs prophetic dreams? because im beginning to believe after marwyns comments, that valyrian prophetic dreams are all sent via glass candles; where as bran and co can receive visions from the old gods,greenseers, cotf, bloodraven.


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Also whats your opinion on how the glass candles figure into the targs prophetic dreams? because im beginning to believe after marwyns comments, that valyrian prophetic dreams are all sent via glass candles; where as bran and co can receive visions from the old gods,greenseers, cotf, bloodraven.

Don't know, and to be honest, don't really care at this point.

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I was waiting for someone to suggest this. Jon is actually born closer to the Sack, possibly even during it or very soon after it. Dany isn't born until almost nine months later. Based on that timeline, who's the more logical candidate?

Speaking of ... even though Dany has what could be construed as dragon dreams that could feature literal dragons (she seems to dream about Drogon before he hatches), to my knowledge no one has ever had a dragon dream where Dany was the dragon. Not in the sense that Daeron saw Baelor and Daemon saw Egg and maybe the Ghost of High Heart saw Rhaegar.

Is it necessary for it to be a father and a son, or only necessary for it to be two kings? In the case of Mance and his son, it has to be a father and a son dying in succession, in order for both to die kings. You can't kill the son and then the father, because the son wouldn't die a king. The critical part isn't "the father and then the son," it's "so both die kings." If you read it that way -- it's two kings in general, and the father-son thing is specific to Mance and his son so that both die as kings to fulfill that requirement -- then yeah Aerys and Aegon most certainly fit.

BBM-Agreed. The only thing that I think comes even close is Dany herself envisioning Rhaegar looking directly at her and talking about a third head. But of course, Rhaegar could be telling her about Jon.

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you don't care where there dreams come from? because I think that's a pretty huge factor in all of their dreams; and its a huge difference between if they naturally have these visions or if there being given to them from people like quaithe. coincidentally there was a thread recently discussing the possibility of quaithe being present in danys first dream (that brought her back from near suicide and on the road to hatching what we all believe will be 3 of the best weapons in destroying mans greatest enemy, the others) that was pretty convincing.


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