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Dragons covered the World?


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I remember in the past GRRM said that at one time Dragons covered the world.


Is this accurate? Im assuming if they did then it would be during the Dawn Age, if not earlier.



Im just curious why there is no Dragon lore in the North. Since alot of their culture comes from the Children of the Forest, then wouldn't the Children have hinted at all by saying, "Oh yea, Dragons used to be a big deal here." But they make no mention of it. I mean, I'm not expecting an origin story that says something like, Fire once ruled the world and all bowed to them" But Im just curious as to why there is no mythological story involving dragons whatsoever in First Men stories.



The closest we get to it is when the Grey King, who killed a "Sea Dragon" and made a castle out of her bones, etc. But thats it. And I assume when the Seastone chair was found, it could have been a relic from a past era in which Dragons and Dragon riders ruled Westeros. Since the Iron Islands are so isolated, it remained while the ruins and bones in Westeros eventually turned to stone or was excavated by the Children, First Men or whatever.



I believe the Battle for the Dawn is a cyclical battle. Sometimes Fire wins, Sometimes winter wins. Fire vs Ice. Each time, champions are picked to be the vessels of this magic (Valyrians - Fire, Starks - Ice) eventually fighting each other for dominion of the planet.



My question is.....will this be hinted at in any text of the World of Ice and Fire? Will this be explained further at all in it? The cyclical battle for the dawn? Dragons ruling the world? Cultures before the dawn age? Were humans wiped out before during the last battle for the dawn? And if the Dragons onc ruled the world, what killed them off? Were dragons around during the long winter? Is any of this touched upon in the world of ice and fire? This is probably the most interesting topic to me


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I'd be interested to find out more about this too.I think Dany says somewhere that all dragons originated from Asshai.Is this true?



The lack of ancient dragon lore in Westeros is puzzling.


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Dragons covered the entire world once. But these were wild dragons. I strongly suspect that the purpose of the Long Night was linked to the eradication of dragons from the world. And it succeeded in doing that with 99% of all dragons on earth. Only in the volcanos of Valyria did wild dragons manage to ride out the cold of the Long Night by hibernating in the lavapits.



These Valyrian dragons were only discovered by the simple sheperd folk of the Valyrian peninsula thousands of years later, which led to the birth of the Valyrian Freehold, based on its monopoly on dragon ownership.



Dragons would have lived in Westeros before the Long Night. And it seems very little of human history before the Long Night is still recalled today. As for the Children of the Forest not mentioning dragons - well, maybe there is a larger story they are deliberately not telling, with regard to dragons and their connection to the Long Night, that the Children may have been intricately involved in.



My pet theory:



12000 years ago - The Children bring down the Hammer of the Waters comet to stop the First Men migration into Westeros. The comet contains dragon eggs and thus dragons are unleashed into the world.



12000-8000 years ago - Dragons proliferate to the point of becoming the dominant species on the planet, endangering all other life in the world.



8000 years ago - The Children are forced to use their magic to bring about the Long Night, as the only way to try and correct the imbalance in the natural cycle of life that dragons have brought about. It succeeds, but causes the imbalance in the seasons as a side effect.



Now 8000 years later the chance has arrived to finally restore the balance, with the union of Ice and Fire.



Anyway, that's how I see it all fitting together somehow.


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Dragons covered the entire world once. But these were wild dragons. I strongly suspect that the purpose of the Long Night was linked to the eradication of dragons from the world. And it succeeded in doing that with 99% of all dragons on earth. Only in the volcanos of Valyria did wild dragons manage to ride out the cold of the Long Night by hibernating in the lavapits.

These Valyrian dragons were only discovered by the simple sheperd folk of the Valyrian peninsula thousands of years later, which led to the birth of the Valyrian Freehold, based on its monopoly on dragon ownership.

Dragons would have lived in Westeros before the Long Night. And it seems very little of human history before the Long Night is still recalled today. As for the Children of the Forest not mentioning dragons - well, maybe there is a larger story they are deliberately not telling, with regard to dragons and their connection to the Long Night, that the Children may have been intricately involved in.

My pet theory:

12000 years ago - The Children bring down the Hammer of the Waters comet to stop the First Men migration into Westeros. The comet contains dragon eggs and thus dragons are unleashed into the world.

12000-8000 years ago - Dragons proliferate to the point of becoming the dominant species on the planet, endangering all other life in the world.

8000 years ago - The Children are forced to use their magic to bring about the Long Night, as the only way to try and correct the imbalance in the natural cycle of life that dragons have brought about. It succeeds, but causes the imbalance in the seasons as a side effect.

Now 8000 years later the chance has arrived to finally restore the balance, with the union of Ice and Fire.

Anyway, that's how I see it all fitting together somehow.

The AA story coupled with Dothraki story may be indicating the opposite - the dragons were a response to the long night rather than the long night coming as a side effect of exterminating dragons.

I don't have exact wording atm but the dothraki tale it's something like the moon kissed the sun and split open and released thousands and thousands of dragons. Meanwhile the AA tale a man ("my sun and stars" says Dany) stabs his wife ("moon of my life" says Drogo) to forge a "sword". Her scream left a "crack across the face of the moon"...

My pet theory... ;)

The white walkers were chased from Essos by Azor ahai's dragons across the arm of dorne, the cotf smashed it behind them to stop them a bit too late. They warred with each other and made peace. Then the Andals invaded and started the lies...

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The AA story coupled with Dothraki story may be indicating the opposite - the dragons were a response to the long night rather than the long night coming as a side effect of exterminating dragons.

I don't have exact wording atm but the dothraki tale it's something like the moon kissed the sun and split open and released thousands and thousands of dragons. Meanwhile the AA tale a man ("my sun and stars" says Dany) stabs his wife ("moon of my life" says Drogo) to forge a "sword". Her scream left a "crack across the face of the moon"...

My pet theory... ;)

The white walkers were chased from Essos by Azor ahai's dragons across the arm of dorne, the cotf smashed it behind them to stop them a bit too late. They warred with each other and made peace. Then the Andals invaded and started the lies...

But that is the thing. Any origin or legendary story about the Long Night or Dragons or AA, that resides in Essos in anyway, views the "Fire" side as the heroes, with the darkness being the victim. They always make it seem like the darkness was killing everyone, but AA, Lightbringer and the warriors of Light/Fire bah, blah, bah saved the dat. Notice there are no stories in Westeros about AA? Only in Essos, because that is what served them. They were ruled by Valyrians, the champions of fire for thousands of years. Would they really paint a story about maybe Fire being the cause of the Long Night? And why the White Walkers came out in the first place?

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Also, what was happening before the Long Night? The First Men arrived in Westeros around 12,000 ce(at least as the maesters recall, lol) and after they fought each for forever, they made a pact and for thousands of years their was "peace".



Something is wrong with this. The story is expressed in a way that makes it seem as if something triggers the Long Night/White Walkers.



Idk, by the story of the Last Hero is the most remarkable ancient story in the series. The desperation and the horror. Everyone is defeated while this man struggles throught the forst to look for the Children, who have seemed to abandon them. He has lost his team, his sword is broken and the whote walkers are nearby. A hell of a story. I'm getting ready to start a new thread on it.



But Im asking Ran or anyone, will anything describing what I asked in the first post be in the world of ice and fire?


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I remember in the past GRRM said that at one time Dragons covered the world.

Is this accurate? Im assuming if they did then it would be during the Dawn Age, if not earlier.

I'm not expecting an origin story that says something like, Fire once ruled the world and all bowed to them"

I think fire it supposed to represent the valyrian freehold, as in their empire once covered most of the world, not that the world was once literally filled with dragons.

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I think fire it supposed to represent the valyrian freehold, as in their empire once covered most of the world, not that the world was once literally filled with dragons.

No. Martin's response was to a question about where all the legends of dragonslayers from the Age of Heroes came from, given that this was thousands of years before Aegon's Conquest, in fact, thousands of years before the Valyrians even discovered dragons in the Fourteen Fires.

Martin's response was that there were dragons all over, once. So this was clearly long before the Valyrian civlization came about.

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No. Martin's response was to a question about where all the legends of dragonslayers from the Age of Heroes came from, given that this was thousands of years before Aegon's Conquest, in fact, thousands of years before the Valyrians even discovered dragons in the Fourteen Fires.

Martin's response was that there were dragons all over, once. So this was clearly long before the Valyrian civlization came about.

Exactly

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I think GRRM just meant to represent the potency of fire magic = Valyrian freehold in the past. I think that fire cannot exit without ice and that every few hundred years, neither one trumps the other, but rather a balance is reset. I do think we'll see some Dragon slayers, but only because they are still fairly small. I find it hard to imagine that any one man could combat a Balerion the Black Dread sized dragon. Without powerful magic anyway.


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But that is the thing. Any origin or legendary story about the Long Night or Dragons or AA, that resides in Essos in anyway, views the "Fire" side as the heroes, with the darkness being the victim. They always make it seem like the darkness was killing everyone, but AA, Lightbringer and the warriors of Light/Fire bah, blah, bah saved the dat. Notice there are no stories in Westeros about AA? Only in Essos, because that is what served them. They were ruled by Valyrians, the champions of fire for thousands of years. Would they really paint a story about maybe Fire being the cause of the Long Night? And why the White Walkers came out in the first place?

My own pet theory sort of links your ideas with A Free Northman Reborn and Kienn above.My ideas,which I've expressed in Heresy threads,center around the commonalities to be found in disparate traditions-and their associated prophecies.For example the idea of the moon cracking is found in the Qartheen Trader's tale of the lunar origin of dragons and also in Sallador's account of the forging of Lightbringer.And Lightbringer is essentially the same name as a sword called Dawn forged from the heart of a fallen star 10,000 years ago.

All the traditions seem to have darkness as a theme and the need for a hero to defeat it.My take is that the COTF/Weirwood alliance in the form of their greenseer brought down a comet to slow down the advance of the First Men.I too have the suspicion that it brought the prototype dragons as an unintended consequence.But it also brought the Others as the price payed for it.Martin makes it clear that magic comes at a cost and that huge magic has a huge price.This is highly speculative,of course,but my sense is that the Others are the souls of those sacrificed before Weirwood trees condemned to the realm of cold and ice.

This would make the comet a true Song of Ice and Fire.I can't reconcile the timelines to make it work satisfactorily yet.

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My own pet theory sort of links your ideas with A Free Northman Reborn and Kienn above.My ideas,which I've expressed in Heresy threads,center around the commonalities to be found in disparate traditions-and their associated prophecies.For example the idea of the moon cracking is found in the Qartheen Trader's tale of the lunar origin of dragons and also in Sallador's account of the forging of Lightbringer.And Lightbringer is essentially the same name as a sword called Dawn forged from the heart of a fallen star 10,000 years ago.

All the traditions seem to have darkness as a theme and the need for a hero to defeat it.My take is that the COTF/Weirwood alliance in the form of their greenseer brought down a comet to slow down the advance of the First Men.I too have the suspicion that it brought the prototype dragons as an unintended consequence.But it also brought the Others as the price payed for it.Martin makes it clear that magic comes at a cost and that huge magic has a huge price.This is highly speculative,of course,but my sense is that the Others are the souls of those sacrificed before Weirwood trees condemned to the realm of cold and ice.

This would make the comet a true Song of Ice and Fire.I can't reconcile the timelines to make it work satisfactorily yet.

I like your theory alot.

Though I think it should be noted that GRRM himself has said that the Others/White Walkers are not "dead". That they are beautiful layered creatures. So I dont believe they are souls or Kings of the past or anything like that. They are an independent race with their own language and history. BUT...something made them march South.

Blood Sacrifice is the only thing that connects all these storylines. The Dragon eggs hatched through blood sacrfice, The Valyrians bound themselves to the Dragons via Blood Sacrifice, the Children of the Forest probably practiced blood sacrfice and in order to try and destroy the neck as well as the bridge taht connected westeros to essos, they must have had used massive blood sacrifice.

So if a Comet brought the Dragons? What brought/created the White Walkers? Maybe they have a different origin

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I like your theory alot.

Though I think it should be noted that GRRM himself has said that the Others/White Walkers are not "dead". That they are beautiful layered creatures. So I dont believe they are souls or Kings of the past or anything like that. They are an independent race with their own language and history. BUT...something made them march South.

Blood Sacrifice is the only thing that connects all these storylines. The Dragon eggs hatched through blood sacrfice, The Valyrians bound themselves to the Dragons via Blood Sacrifice, the Children of the Forest probably practiced blood sacrfice and in order to try and destroy the neck as well as the bridge taht connected westeros to essos, they must have had used massive blood sacrifice.

So if a Comet brought the Dragons? What brought/created the White Walkers? Maybe they have a different origin

The Others were sleeping not dead, so I think the Others are kinda like Ice Wraiths being controlled by someone or by something. Maybe they want the Iron throne or to destroy it and same with the Dragons, they could also destory the Iron Throne and Danny could claim Westeros by dragon power and uniting theem to defeat the Others.

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I'd be interested to find out more about this too.I think Dany says somewhere that all dragons originated from Asshai.Is this true?

The lack of ancient dragon lore in Westeros is puzzling.

There is the ominous ice dragon, and according to Osha the constellation named after it depicts a rider.

“The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye."

(Bran, ACOK)

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There is the ominous ice dragon, and according to Osha the constellation named after it depicts a rider.

“The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye."

(Bran, ACOK)

I love the potential Ice Dragon, that is Jon Snow probably. But still, you have to wonder why is there no lore whatsoever about an ice dragon or any dragom in westeros around the time of heroes or the Long Night

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There is the ominous ice dragon, and according to Osha the constellation named after it depicts a rider.

“The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye."

(Bran, ACOK)

What if the Others are the real Ice Dragons?

"the blue star in the rider's eye"...

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My pet theory...

It is stated that the Others and the CotF are related, somehow, like distant cousin. They have both been around a very long time. Now if the first comet that shattered the arm of Dorne brought dragons (as previously posted). There was also another major magical event that didn't go according to plan. The CotF also rallied at Moat Cailin and attempted to split the north from the south. The attempt was a failure and only succeeded in flooding the surrounding area.

I would imagine this event would have something to do with arrival of wrights. The others being closely related to the CotF used there magic to become the champions of the wrights, to use for battle. Similar to the way dragons are tamed and used as weapons.

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