J. Stargaryen Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 J.star, it's been a while since you dropped this awesomeness, any more on it? Not yet. I should probably do a proper review of the Dance prologue (Varamyr). I got a bit lazy about it though, since it seems like lots of people are already aware of the Jon Snow foreshadowing in that chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I'm interested in the Jaime Lannister/ Last Hero similarities. It's tastier than nutella! there are parallels between Jaime and Bran and a lot of people think Bran is a good candidate for Last Hero part 2. They both have injuries that cause them to lose their previous identity as a swordsman and a climber. Those injuries allow them to become better people a greenseer and a redeemed (possible) hero. [ hesitation.... ] Does it all wind up with Bran giving Jaime a push? (mentally directing him to do last hero stuff, in a semi-wargy way, in effect Voltron-combining the two characters I like to refer to as "Tree" and "Stump." Once they're joined by a psychic link and are acting in unison as a team, their codenames will merge accordingly and they'll just be known as "TreeStump.") it also reminds me of the grey mists Tyrion sails through, which hides stone men. someone we know in the north might be a carrier for greyscale. . . Stone Men (carriers of greyscale) are going to be the key to resisting the Others' blue-eyed magics of domination? Greyscale is the vaccination that'll immunize humanity against the Cold magics, or at least the men & women of the new Watch made of ex-wildlings??? There'll be an outbreak of greyscale (chickenpox), then the Others will breeze through town slaying and reviving, until it becomes evident that the Others had little or no success with the people carrying greyscale. Something like that. Then everybody will want greyscale and the princess becomes very popular. ...a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. - ...wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. the fallen tower & wattled crone occupy the same slot in both lines because these are the central enigmas for Ned and Cersei, the things that defined their lives which they can't get past mentally so their minds keep getting drawn back to it. The bed of blood & death-smell tent are the visceral memory for each character that accompanies the mystery---the part of their defining moment that's tangible, which they can understand, but after that point their understanding dead-ends and can go no further. I'd like to see these two dreams be reverberating mirror images of the same prophecy (promised prince / little brother) seen from opposite sides by opposing POV characters, starring Jon and Cersei as the valonqar and the chokee because they're both members of the Targ family, so as the junior member Jon could be described as the lil' bro. But how the heck is Cersei going to last long enough for Jon to get to the capital to valonqar it up with her? So Aegon becomes the little brother understudy who's actually on the scene and ready to go. To accomodate Aegon into the prophecy's lingo, Little Brother could refer to how Aegon hails from a Junior Branch of the Targaryen family, the Blackfyres(!) I doubt Tyrion gets another successful crack at his dear family, so as the valonqar frontrunner he's actually out of the running, just as there's not going to be another wedding massacre because that's what people are looking for so of course it's not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 [ hesitation.... ] Does it all wind up with Bran giving Jaime a push? (mentally directing him to do last hero stuff, in a semi-wargy way, in effect Voltron-combining the two characters I like to refer to as "Tree" and "Stump." Once they're joined by a psychic link and are acting in unison as a team, their codenames will merge accordingly and they'll just be known as "TreeStump.") Stone Men (carriers of greyscale) are going to be the key to resisting the Others' blue-eyed magics of domination? Greyscale is the vaccination that'll immunize humanity against the Cold magics, or at least the men & women of the new Watch made of ex-wildlings??? There'll be an outbreak of greyscale (chickenpox), then the Others will breeze through town slaying and reviving, until it becomes evident that the Others had little or no success with the people carrying greyscale. Something like that. Then everybody will want greyscale and the princess becomes very popular. I could see that, Bran is encouraging Jamie along the path of the hero. TreeStump, the new kind of ship. I guess Greyscale could immobilize the bones, preventing memories from resurrecting in dead bodies. What about the stumps of weirwoods (different from TreeStump) where even though they appear turned to stone the magic appears to linger and influence people's dreams. People like Jamie. Hmm. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 As a followup, I've been reviewing Cersei V from Feast. Even way back in January when I posted this I noticed that there were a couple of linguistic connections to the Harrenhal tourney. The last few weeks I've gone over the chapter a couple of times and noticed a few other things worth mentioning relating to that tourney as well as Robert's Rebellion. First though, I'm going to begin with a couple of quotes from the dinner Cersei has with Ser Balman Byrch and Lady Falyse Stokeworth. In it, you'll notice that Cersei overestimates the worth of the formerly noteworthy tourney knight in Ser Balman, against the prowess of the battle-tested sellsword, Bronn. We know how that worked out for her. Much in the same way that Rhaegar's noted prowess as a jouster did not serve him well (enough) when he fought Robert, who was not only battle tested, but also an accomplished competitor in the more battle-realistic tourney melees. The queen sipped her wine and studied him. Ser Balman had been a noted jouster once, and one of the handsomest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. [...] “He [ser Bronn] is no true knight,” Ser Balman said.“No.” Cersei smiled, all for him. “And you are a man who would know true knighthood. I remember watching you joust in... which tourney was it where you fought so brilliantly, ser?” Overestimating the worth of a tourney knight versus a battle tested warrior. A point of discussion during any examination of Robert and Rhaegar fight. --- To the south, meanwhile, Mace Tyrell had raised a city of tents outside Storm’s End and had two dozen mangonels flinging stones against the castle’s massive walls, thus far to small effect. Lord Tyrell the warrior, the queen mused. His sigil ought to be a fat man sitting on his arse. [...] There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm’s End during the siege. Currently the Tyrells are besieging Storm's End, which accounts for the first mention. But, this isn't the first time this has happened in recent history, as GRRM reminds us later in the chapter. In a way, history is repeating itself; i.e., the Tyrells besieging SE to no avail, as they did during RR. (Cue the Stannis! Stannis! chants.) Right around the same time as the second passage about SE, we nearly have a second case of history repeating itself. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. “No,” she had replied, “I want him horned.” She liked to think that was the night when Joffrey was conceived. Jaime offers to kill the king and we're reminded that he's done that before, towards the end of RR. --- Now, onto some tourney connections/themes. Their smiles withered like roses kissed by frost. [...] Her laughter died at tourney’s end. Which I would say are linguistically reminiscent of a specific and memorable passage from AGoT, Eddard XV. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. There are more, but before I continue with them, I want to point out a direct reference to the battle between Rhaegar and Robert on the Trident. Interestingly, Cersei words it as if it were a tourney. This is for a good reason in story, but I think it's meant to convey a certain amount of subtext, as well. Aside from simply connecting Cersei's thoughts to the earlier events of the famous tourney at HH and RR, I think this has the effect of juxtaposing 'tourney knight' versus 'battle knight', which I mentioned at the beginning of this post, even though the dinner isn't until later in the chapter. (For context, I'll include the previous two paragraphs.) “I was watching from across the yard. You did very well, Tommen. I would expect no less of you. Jousting is in your blood. One day you shall rule the lists, as your father did.”“No man will stand before him [referring to Tommen's future as a jouster].” Margaery Tyrell gave the queen a coy smile. “But I never knew that King Robert was so accomplished at the joust. Pray tell us, Your Grace, what tourneys did he win? What great knights did he unseat? I know the king should like to hear about his father’s victories.”A flush crept up Cersei’s neck. The girl had caught her out. Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the mêlée, where he could beat men bloody with blunted axe or hammer. It had been Jaime she had been thinking of when she spoke. It is not like me to forget myself. “Robert won the tourney of the Trident,” she had to say. “He overthrew Prince Rhaegar and named me his queen of love and beauty. I am surprised you do not know that story, good-daughter.” She gave Margaery no time to frame a reply. “Ser Osmund, help my son from his armor, if you would be so good. Ser Loras, walk with me. I need a word with you.” In my ebook, this is on the page following: ...roses kissed by frost. So, you have a reference to a 'tourney', Rhaegar, and the title of QoLaB—which comes complete with a crown of winter roses: blue as frost. The subtext is practically oozing "Harrenhal tourney." It goes without saying that Robert and Rhaegar's duel is also connected to the HH tourney, even linguistically. For example, Ned recalls Rhaegar's black armor and ruby sigil on two occasions: when he's thinking about the battle with Robert on the Trident in his first chapter, and then when he's remembering HH in his last chapter. Nice bookends, eh? They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. - Eddard I [...] The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. - Eddard XV It's also worth mentioning that in Eddard I he recalls Lyanna in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Then, in Eddard XV, we learn that Rhaegar crowned her QoLaB. So, in other words, Ned recalls the deaths of Rhaegar and Lyanna in his first chapter and the beginning of their relationship, the 'crowning moment' at the HH tourney, in his last chapter. So, we see that he's juxtaposing the beginning and end of the R&L stories with the first and last of Ned's POV chapters. --- A bit later in the chapter, when Jaime and Cersei are arguing over who should train Tommen as a knight, we get this reference to jousting that includes Rhaegar. Cersei thinks about him quite a lot in this chapter. “You [Jaime] were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He’s just a boy.” --- Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father’s finest jousters, the flower of the west. By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. Again we are reminded of previous descriptions of the HH tourney. Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. - AGoT, Eddard XV [...] “The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.” - ASoS, Bran II (Meera telling Bran the story of the HH tourney and the KotLT.) So, Rhaegar is described and his accomplishments are detailed; e.g., Rhaegar wore such and such, and beat so and so. Not coincidentally, GRRM also makes use of the word "flower" here. Which, again, is a reminder of Lyanna. --- When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. [...] She was going to be Prince Rhaegar’s wife, no matter what the woman said. Her father had promised it, and Tywin Lannister’s word was gold. Twice here, GRRM has Cersei think about how her father promised that she was going to marry Rhaegar. A gentle nudge in the direction of a R&L marriage, perhaps, via Promise me, Ned. --- Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy’s curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons. Much like Lyanna, Cersei desired Rhaegar, but her father had given her Robert. This sentence also mentions Maggy's curse (i.e., her prophecy) and ends with "poisonous flower." Again, as a possible or even likely reference to the flowers Lyanna received from Rhaegar. Notice how the mention of Lyanna (the wold maid) ties together the two sentences. First, prophecy + "poisonous flower." Second, Lyanna gave Rhaegar his second son, so now he had sons. Also, Lyanna would have been one of Rhaegar's queens. The last sentence is ironic, since Rhaegar actually did have two sons. Of course Cersei doesn't know this, but the audience does. She actually means that Elia only gave him one son, and that Aegon is the only one he ever had. This passage has a linguistic cousin in the Dance epilogue featuring Cersei's uncle Kevan. She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun. --- Some odds and ends, or, other things that stood out to me. (The following quotes are in blue due to the restriction on the number of quote tags that can be used in one post.) --- The chapter starts off in a somewhat humorous way, with Tommen complaining to Cersei about not being able to sit on the IT. The king was pouting. “I want to sit on the Iron Throne,” he told her.” Considering the amount of time Cersei spends thinking on Rhaegar, HH, and RR, it's a cute and clever beginning to the chapter. Cersei wants to rule, and this is (symbolically) one of the battles she has to fight in order to do so. I doubt that the singers will make a song out of her glorious victory. ;) --- Still, it was an ill way to break her fast, and Cersei’s day did not soon improve. She spent the rest of the morning with Lord Gyles and his ledger books, listening to him cough about stars and stags and dragons. This looks like foreshadowing to me: the Faith, Baratheons, Targaryens. --- “The only thing these captains proved was that they know how to swim,” she’d said. “No mother should outlive her children, and no captain should outlive his ship.” Pycelle had taken the rebuke with ill grace.” Says the mother who outlived her firstborn. --- The ending took the puppet show from simple insolence to treason. “Witless fools. Only cretins would hazard their heads upon a wooden dragon.” She considered a moment. “Send some of your whisperers to these shows and make note of who attends. If any of them should be men of note, I would know their names.” Here, Qyburn is informing Cersei about a puppet show that ends with dragons defeating lions. The puppet show seems like a callback to The Hedge Knight, which involved Aerion Brightflame. And, I think the "wooden dragon" could be a reference to Aegon IV, who employed wooden dragons in his unsuccessful attempt to conquer Dorne. So, a possible nod to the "Brightfyre" theory, as Aegon IV is the father of Daemon Blackfyre. Also, "mummer's dragon." --- “—or what? Will you send me to inspect the city walls again?” He sat and crossed his legs. “Your bloody walls are fine. I’ve crawled over every inch of them and had a look at all seven of the gates. The hinges on the Iron Gate are rusted, and the King’s Gate and Mud Gate need to be replaced after the pounding Stannis gave them with his rams. The walls are as strong as they have ever been... but perchance Your Grace has forgotten that our friends of Highgarden are inside the walls?” Jaime talking to Cersei. This might be a bit of a reach, but considering that iron is used to subdue magic in the story, this is possible foreshadowing along those lines. For example, magic could be a problem for KL in the future, or something like that. --- The words stung. You called me kinder words at Greenstone, the night you planted Joff inside me, Cersei thought. “Get out.” She turned her back to him and listened to him leave, fumbling at the door with his stump. Joffrey, who sat the IT despite having no legal claim to it, was apparently conceived at a place called Greenstone. Cute. Btw, Jaime starts calling the place "Greenshit," which is interesting to me, since there are so many connections between the Lannisters and shit in the story. During his conversation with Cat in the Riverrun dungeons, she kicks over his privy bucket and says that is what his honor is worth. Tyrion was put in charge of the sewers at Casterly Rock. Tywin died on the privy. In this very post I quoted Cersei thinking that her father's word was as good as gold in regards to marrying Rhaegar. How did that turn out? Hint: not golden. --- It had stripes of shiny green satin alternating with stripes of plush black velvet,... Black and green as a pair, which have been used in and around wars of succession. This is the dress Cersei wears to dinner with Ser Balman and Lady Falyse, where she plots against Ser Bronn, whom she fears is still an agent of her brother. --- And so it had, though once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime had discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys. In a chapter with plenty of R+L(=J) allusions, I think this is probably another one of them. One of the things Jaehaerys and Alysanne were famous for was going to Winterfell and the Wall. Jon, a hidden Targaryen heir, has spent basically all of his life at those same two places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrafntýr Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 More nice work, J. Stargaryen! Although the material you analyze here doesn't feature the same powerful structural parallels as those you analyze in the OP, the parallels in language and imagery are really interesting. I'd note a couple of other elements that you didn't choose to highlight in your discussion of the passage from the DwD epilogue: She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.Kevan thinks of Cersei when she'd flowered. And "however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun" calls to mind the words of the Flower Loras: "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." I'm curious: what do you make of the fact that Loras is a part of a number of the passages you've identified as expressing the HH/Rhaegar/Lyanna/PtwP nexus? Is he simply an instrument to signify "flower" or is there something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead_Stark Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Meh, I think its much more likely that the similarity arises from the fact that they were written by the same author. There are a few times when GRRM characterizes things similarly. Its kind of inevitable when you have someone writing several thousand pages of prose over 20 plus years. I wouldn't read more into it than that.I agree. And although Martin is a masterfull writer I feel that people are looking TOO deeply into it and bringing up a lot of stuff that doesn't exist or isn't intentional. He takes long enough to write these monstrous books as it is but with the layers of foreshadowing attributed to him on these forums they would probably take twenty years each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrafntýr Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I agree. And although Martin is a masterfull writer I feel that people are looking TOO deeply into it and bringing up a lot of stuff that doesn't exist or isn't intentional. He takes long enough to write these monstrous books as it is but with the layers of foreshadowing attributed to him on these forums they would probably take twenty years each. Sorry, I just have to disagree. Is each and every word a foreshadowing of something? No, nor was that really what the OP was suggesting, so far as I understand (though feel free to correct me, J. Stargaryen). Now, this last addition by the OP is of a different sort than his first post, but just to take that as an example, what we see is the use of specific motifs and images that constellate together in certain key passages or surrounding figures that are set up to parallel one another in order to illuminate major themes of the novels. For me, this is not about figuring out clues that are going to tell me what will happen in the remaining books, but rather about normal appreciation of the literary qualities of the narrative, just like one would do in any literature class examining a novel. Writers: they do stuff with language. ASoIaF isn't a term paper written the night before it's due and handed in with only a cursory proofread. Writers actually think about each and every word that they use. They go back and revise, over and over and over again, refining the language, structuring and restructuring the narrative, trying first one thing, then another, experimenting til it's right. It is a deliberate process. /rant. Sorry, it really bugs me when people show no appreciation for the level of thought, precision, hard work and craft that goes into writing actual literature. Every time I go back to read a chapter in these books I'm shocked at how much resonance there is across the entire span of the books. There is nothing accidental about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 More nice work, J. Stargaryen! Although the material you analyze here doesn't feature the same powerful structural parallels as those you analyze in the OP, the parallels in language and imagery are really interesting. I'd note a couple of other elements that you didn't choose to highlight in your discussion of the passage from the DwD epilogue: Kevan thinks of Cersei when she'd flowered. And "however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun" calls to mind the words of the Flower Loras: "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." I'm curious: what do you make of the fact that Loras is a part of a number of the passages you've identified as expressing the HH/Rhaegar/Lyanna/PtwP nexus? Is he simply an instrument to signify "flower" or is there something else? I meant to point this out, actually. I guess I just forgot about it when I was typing it up. I don't think all of the mentions of "flower(s)" are completely independent from the idea of Cersei and Lyanna flowering. I also recognized the connection between the "rising/setting sun," but didn't include it for some reason. Now that you mention it though, I probably should have. Good catch. About Ser Loras's role wrt to Jon subtext: Aside from the times when GRRM uses him to convey R+L=J allusions, I've spotted a couple of instances where I think GRRM could be figuratively invoking Jon when he's literally writing about Loras. For example, from my previous post: “You [Jaime] were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He’s just a boy.” Maybe just maybe, GRRM is subtly talking about Jon here. Both Loras and Jon are very young. Technically they're both men grown, and both accomplished beyond their years, though that doesn't stop Cersei from dismissing Loras as "just a boy." Perhaps she will make the same mistake with Jon at some point? And of course I think Jon symbolically is a flower, specifically a blue winter rose. Another time this idea occurred to me is from one of the AGoT passages from the TotH that I analyzed. When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape. - AGoT, Eddard VII Maybe it's just my imagination but, given the R+L=J stuff going on in Ser Loras's TotH sections, I couldn't help but think of Jon's NW cloak, and the duty that came with it. A heavy cloak as a metaphor for a heavy burden—e.g., like a weight on his shoulders—would make sense, I think. Not only that, but FrozenFire3 pointed out a couple of occasions where Ned thinks of Aegon and Jon as "the boy." The little princess [Rhaenys] had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy ... the boy ... [Aegon] [...] If only he could see the boy [Jon] again, sit and talk with him ... - Link to FF3's post, which focuses on Ned's use, or possible overuse, of ellipses in passages that seem to have Jon subtext. As for "the boy," maybe it is just one of those phrases you can't get away from as a writer, or maybe not. It's not really conclusive, but it makes me wonder since there are other things in each of those passages that could be allusions to R+L=J and/or Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arya's Song Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Wonderful work J Stargaryen! I only wanted to add a few remarks regarding Ser Loras and Jon imagery. Cersei to Jaime Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is . He's just a boy. Later we have Janos Slynt saying to another Flower. on the Wall (Jon) He's just a boy. :) In fact for a while now I have wondered over Melisandre's repeated words to Stannis in Clash. " Give me the boy". The Obvious is Edric..but the obscure is Jon Snow. Throughout the story I keep finding these hints. GRRM is telling us a story underneath a story or hints about a deeper story hidden in the obvious story. Not only is "Give me the boy" (as a sacrifice for the greater good of the realm) on surface level referring to Edric, but underneath its Jon Snow who is I think a sacrifice for the realms of men and underneath Jon is little Bran Stark who has been given to Blood Raven. All three characters fit the"Give me the boy" Also the wooden dragon in the puppet show again the obvious and perhaps the obscure. No, Your Grace. At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions.” ( Jon)The ending took the puppet show from simple insolence to treason. “Witless fools. Only cretins would hazard their heads upon a wooden dragon.” I like how you referenced the wooden dragon to Aegon. I also wonder if its not an obscure hint regarding another wooden dragon beyond the Wall who has great powers and has been playing the Game longer than any other character in our series. Blood Raven who also has a " boy" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 Wonderful work J Stargaryen! I only wanted to add a few remarks regarding Ser Loras and Jon imagery. Cersei to Jaime Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is . He's just a boy. Later we have Janos Slynt saying to another Flower. on the Wall (Jon) He's just a boy. :) In fact for a while now I have wondered over Melisandre's repeated words to Stannis in Clash. " Give me the boy". The Obvious is Edric..but the obscure is Jon Snow. Throughout the story I keep finding these hints. GRRM is telling us a story underneath a story or hints about a deeper story hidden in the obvious story. Not only is "Give me the boy" (as a sacrifice for the greater good of the realm) on surface level referring to Edric, but underneath its Jon Snow who is I think a sacrifice for the realms of men and underneath Jon is little Bran Stark who has been given to Blood Raven. All three characters fit the "Give me the boy" Also the wooden dragon in the puppet show again the obvious and perhaps the obscure. No, Your Grace. At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions.” ( Jon) The ending took the puppet show from simple insolence to treason. “Witless fools. Only cretins would hazard their heads upon a wooden dragon.” I like how you referenced the wooden dragon to Aegon. I also wonder if its not an obscure hint regarding another wooden dragon beyond the Wall who has great powers and has been playing the Game longer than any other character in our series. Blood Raven who also has a " boy" . Those are good catches wrt to "the boy." My only concern is that GRRM uses it 182 times in AGoT alone, and to describe a number of characters; e.g., Jon, Bran, Sweet Robin, Gendry, and various others. So, even though there are some instances that remind me of Jon, I don't think it's exclusively associated with him or anything. However, in certain combinations, like flower (or whatever) + the boy, it's possible that GRRM is setting up a parallel between the character referred to in the text, and another character who is implied in the subtext. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 While we're on the subject, Jon repeatedly thinks Kill the boy during Dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 A small, but not insignificant, addition to the previous analyses. “Not kind,” said Cersei, “merely truthful. Taena tells me that you are called the Blue Bard.”“I am, Your Grace.” The singer’s boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater. From blue roses, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked.- Cersei IX, AFfC Though maybe not as heavy handed as the other examples, I believe this is another allusion of sorts to R+L=J. In a way, history is once again kind-of-but-not-quite repeating itself. Here we have a bard (Rhaegar), allegedly romantically involved with Margaery (Lyanna). Not only are both girls associated with roses, but it's not the first time GRRM has used House Tyrell + blue to insinuate blue roses into the subtext, either. Which he had previously done with Margaery's brother, Ser Loras, during the Tourney of the Hand back in AGoT. - Link. Now, as then, GRRM uses a Tyrell + blue to create a just-beneath-the-surface allusion to R+L=J. Given Cersei's recurring thoughts of Rhaegar, specifically how she feels slighted by the marriage snub, it's probably not a big surprise she has been so nasty to Lyanna's occasional avatars, Sansa and Margaery. Though, whether this is something to do with her underlying psychology or just subtext, I can't really say. Then again, Cersei is unpleasant to almost everyone, so maybe it's as much coincidence as anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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