Why does house Stark have the smallest army in the north?

[Mr Fixit]

So altogether, all the numbers match the somewhat lower figures from Aegon's day. Except for the damn Tyrells, who mess everything up. As I said before, this could be rectified if we get a simple reference at some point to the fact that Renly was lying through his teeth when bragging about his so called force of 100k men.

I can't recall; where was it said Renly had 100K? The only number I can remember is his supposition that Robb together with riverlords has some 40K and that he has double those numbers, that is 80,000. I think Renly was likely exaggerating, which would fit with his personality anyway. I think he had around 70,000 men -- 20-25K Stormlords and around 50K Reachmen. With maybe 10K Reachmen left behind (with Willas, was it?), I think Reach strength amount to some 60,000 men. Anything over those numbers would probably be poorly equipped and poorly trained levies.

[Djinn]

My own view is this (others will disagree) The lord of the north consist of Umber, Karstark, Bolton and Manderly.

Everyone else by extension are Starks men, The mountain clans, Glovers, Tallharts etc are Starks direct men. They have their own banners and titles but can still be counted as the men Winterfell can directly call to arms.

So therefore the Starks can call more men to arms than any of the other Lords in the North.

A good example is the Mountain Clans, they are bone deep loyal to the Starks but why? Because they are Starks men. A normal Bolton soldier would say his loyalty is with house Bolton. Ask a mountain man or a glover soldier who they are loyal to it would be the Starks and Winterfell.

This is the way I see it anyway.

Hornwood, Flint, Dustin, Ryswell and Mormont don't count why?

[KingWinter]

The whole feudal system was unstable. Which is why you had so many wars and rebellions during that time period. If all the lords raised up in rebellion then the king was usually doomed, however, the lords would rarely all raise up which would put some on the side of the king.

Y'all should play Crusader Kings 2.

This. Not only is it an awesome game in itself but it shows the feudal system in a hands on way. Also there is a game of thrones mod that is amazing.

[King Zee]

This is a ridiculous notion. Instead, logic would dictate that the Glovers have the allegiance of Wolfswood Houses up to roughly halfway between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell, and that those that are located closer to Winterfell are sworn directly to Winterfell.

Similarly, there aren't petty lords sworn to House Bolton 2 days ride Northeast of Winterfell. Nope, if there are 300 miles between Winterfell and the Dreadfort, the petty lords sworn to each could be expected to be split roughly halfway between the two territories, or wherever a historical treaty or natural boundary created a convenient border.

Youre assuming that Castles are located in the centre of a Lord's territory and that the territories are rough circles or squares not strange irregular patchwork shapes.

[King Zee]

I think I speak for us all when I say that I find it hard to believe (close to BS actually) that the Starks are poorer than their bannermen (with the exception of the Manderleys).

youre equating rank with wealth. In real life the two didnt go hand in hand

[King Zee]

Anyhow, Starks have been the Kings for thousands of years, collecting taxes from their own sublords all the time.

query. Is this how we are told the system works in the North ? AFAIK in real life feudal taxes were actually the amount of men / horses or arms/armour you would provide in case of war.

[Veltigar]

youre equating rank with wealth. In real life the two didnt go hand in hand

And ASOIAF = real life I take it? Don't kid yourself. Feudalism in Westeros is much simpler than in real life.

[The Raging Bull]

Hornwood, Flint, Dustin, Ryswell and Mormont don't count why?

That's why I put Mountain clans, Glovers, Tallhart etc as didn't think it necessary to name them all.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Very interesting perspectives. I am inclined to think that GRRM didn't think the numbers through well enough at first, at by the time ADwD came out, he knew he had to do some crunching, but it couldn't make sense any way he did it. If the Gift is fertile, then so is the North. Not as rich as the Reach or the riverlands, but still viable enough to support a vast populace. I can't imagine that in Westeros, after Aegon's Conquest, and especially Robert's Rebellion, there was simply a vast stretch of nothingness surrounding Winterfell. But it's true, all we really know of, closest to the Starks, are the Cerwyns. There should be a few more lords or masters under him, enforcing the king's law, helping with taxation and food rationing and all sorts of legislative affairs. How the hell was Ned administrating without more help? If even just one in a hundred people was a criminal, in addition to deserters from the Night's Watch, Ned would have been a very busy man, but I guess he was as Bran's first chapter showed us. But did he really chop all those heads off by himself? Then again.. I guess that's why they call him The Ned.

[Nittanian]

My theory on the Cerwyns is that they were the original Lords of the new gift and the Starks gave them some other land after the Targs gave their land to the Watch.

This would of meant that pre 300 years ago when the Starks needed their full military might those lands and potential soldiers were Starks, but with the relative security of a United Westeros backing up all the Overlords they gave up the land.

I like this theory as well. Hopefully we will learn more about the smaller houses in TWOIAF or the GRRMarillion (for instance, where do the Ryswells live?).

[Free Northman Reborn]

I like this theory as well. Hopefully we will learn more about the smaller houses in TWOIAF or the GRRMarillion (for instance, where do the Ryswells live?).

The Ryswells are a very powerful House that rules all of the Rills, a well watered fertile region almost a thousand miles south of the Wall and about 200 by 200 miles in size - pretty much the size of England.

The reason Martin made up in Dance to explain their relative lack of prominence in Robb's army compared to lords like the Umbers, Karstarks, Glovers, Boltons and even Tallharts, is that their House is divided between four quarrelling branches and there is therefore not a single lord to represent the united Ryswell power at this point in time.

A retro engineered explanation if I ever read one.

[Veltigar]

The Ryswells are a very powerful House that rules all of the Rills, a well watered fertile region almost a thousand miles south of the Wall and about 200 by 200 miles in size - pretty much the size of England.

The reason Martin made up in Dance to explain their relative lack of prominence in Robb's army compared to lords like the Umbers, Karstarks, Glovers, Boltons and even Tallharts, is that their House is divided between four quarrelling branches and there is therefore not a single lord to represent the united Ryswell power at this point in time.

A retro engineered explanation if I ever read one.

You know I never really got the Ryswells. Shouldn't they all follow the lead of the eldest instead of arguing amongst each other?

EDIT: I'm pretty sure they aren't quadruplets

[Barty]

The Ryswells are a very powerful House that rules all of the Rills, a well watered fertile region almost a thousand miles south of the Wall and about 200 by 200 miles in size - pretty much the size of England.

The reason Martin made up in Dance to explain their relative lack of prominence in Robb's army compared to lords like the Umbers, Karstarks, Glovers, Boltons and even Tallharts, is that their House is divided between four quarrelling branches and there is therefore not a single lord to represent the united Ryswell power at this point in time.

A retro engineered explanation if I ever read one.

I always assumed their lack of role in Robb's army was because of Lady Dustin's influence. She is a Ryswell by birth after all. Also Lord Ryswell probably isn't so fond of the Starks either since Brandon took his daughter's virginity and then left to marry someone else - not an easy thing for a father to overlook.

[R'hllor the Fabulous]

I'm pretty sure we can all just agree that Martin goofed up the numbers of a lot of things.

[Faceless Sam]

Or maybe it's because GRRM isn't Bowen Marsh Reborn, not interested in every nitpicky detail where numbers are concerned. He's admitted that the height of the Wall is ridiculous and that the monetary system makes little sense.

If you wanted you could try to figure out how the cage that they use to lift things to the top of the wall would work in real life. It doesn't sound like a modern elevator with counterweights and cables, just one chain lifting that 700 feet to the top. How much does 700 feet of chain weigh? More than a couple of guys manning a winch could lift, that's for damn sure. But we ignore that for the sake of the narrative.

Some people see a forest and some people want to count the trees.

more like count the amount of leaves and ask why there's a completely unrealistic amount of them covering the ground.

[WakeTheDragon]

The North really isn't set up properly it should have a million plus population but it doesn't. Even ten year and longer winters don't explain why it doesn't.

Same reason Canada has a lot less people than the states. It's freaking cold.

[King Zee]

And ASOIAF = real life I take it? Don't kid yourself. Feudalism in Westeros is much simpler than in real life.

says who ? We have more an absence of information than anything else.

[Nittanian]

I always assumed their lack of role in Robb's army was because of Lady Dustin's influence. She is a Ryswell by birth after all. Also Lord Ryswell probably isn't so fond of the Starks either since Brandon took his daughter's virginity and then left to marry someone else - not an easy thing for a father to overlook.

That's a good theory as well, along with Lord Rodrik holding a grudge.

The appendices state that Roose, Roger, and Rickard are Lord Rodrik's quarrelsome cousins, but Reek II and Reek III in ADWD state they are Rodrik's sons and therefore siblings to Lady Barbrey and Roose Bolton's late wife, Bethany. I'm surprised that GRRM hasn't given us the name the Ryswells' castle yet (along with the name of the Mormonts' keep on Bear Island).

[LC Jaime Lannister]

They do not have the smallest army, however, they probably did not have the largest either. Anyways, its not like they needed a huge army to keep their bannermen honest; they all loved Ned and the Starks. Maybe minus Roose.

[TOCR815]

The Starks don't have the smallest army in the North. They have the biggest because all those northern lords answer to them. The immediate area around Winterfell, including the winter town, would be their respective domain if that's how you want to put it, but they own the whole north. Their nobles rule different parts and organize the levies in their stead.