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What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice


Grail King

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I would appreciate it if you wouldn't mischaracterize my arguments. I criticized Sansa for never even thinking about trying to escape or ever doing the slightest thing to see if it might be possible, not for failing to escape. Or, perhaps that difference escaped you.

Sansa never thought about escaping? Where did this come from? Because as I recall, from her very second chapter in ACOK until the end of ASOS, she was plotting to escape. She even went along with Tyrell marriage because she believed they were safer option than Dontos. The very courage she needed to go to Godswood and make sure first Joffrey and later Tyrion don't discover her is amazing. But I imagine all those pages in which she is believing Dontos, and meeting with him might have escaped you. ;)

It's the idea that without her wolf being alive she is more alone, more at risk, more at odds with the world, cut off from her source of strength and protection....illustrated by the difference in the level of support that she receives when compared to her siblings. Further illlustrated by Robb dying after he stopped listening to his wolf and Arya being cast adrift on a different continent since she was separated from her wolf. You know, the wolves were sent by the old gods to protect the Starks, thus, when the wolves are gone/dead/ignored bad things happen..and perhaps in Sansa's case it is exacerbated by the fact, in my opinion, that her wolf's death is due in large part to her own weakness in her actions.

I had no idea that wolves came directly from Old Gods? Please, and I am sure you have it, could you provide me the quote from the books in which undeniably is concluded that Gods sent the wolves? Her wolf died because Cersei wanted it dead, Robert was too much of a coward, and Ned was too honorable. Lady died for many reasons, some of them are in metanarrative, some are explained by the shit-sandwich Robert, Cersei and Ned made on that trial. I don't see how Lady's death in any way could be put on Sansa. Not even the karmic retribution explains it. There is no logic according to which we can say "Sansa did something wrong, thus she lost her wolf" I imagine, following that logic, you will explain me what Arya has done wrong to be separated from her wolf? All in all,

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Sansa never thought about escaping? Where did this come from? Because as I recall, from her very second chapter in ACOK until the end of ASOS, she was plotting to escape. She even went along with Tyrell marriage because she believed they were safer option than Dontos. The very courage she needed to go to Godswood and make sure first Joffrey and later Tyrion don't discover her is amazing. But I imagine all those pages in which she is believing Dontos, and meeting with him might have escaped you. ;)

I had no idea that wolves came directly from Old Gods? Please, and I am sure you have it, could you provide me the quote from the books in which undeniably is concluded that Gods sent the wolves? Her wolf died because Cersei wanted it dead, Robert was too much of a coward, and Ned was too honorable. Lady died for many reasons, some of them are in metanarrative, some are explained by the shit-sandwich Robert, Cersei and Ned made on that trial. I don't see how Lady's death in any way could be put on Sansa. Not even the karmic retribution explains it. There is no logic according to which we can say "Sansa did something wrong, thus she lost her wolf" I imagine, following that logic, you will explain me what Arya has done wrong to be separated from her wolf? All in all,

She plots nothing. She gets a note. She summons up courage, and OMG, goes to the godswood. Then, she keeps going there and does whatever Dontos tells her. Same with the Tyrells. No plotting. No nothing. She's a pawn of these other people's plans, none of this is her own, or done on her own initiative.

You don't think the old god's sent the wolves and there is no meaning or symbolism, okay fine, then we have nothing to discuss regarding the meaning of Lady's death.

And Lady is dead because Sansa lied. If she had told the truth, as multiple others have said on this thread then Robert would not have agreed to have Lady killed, since it's clear from the POV which I reread today that he never intended to punish Arya to begin with, from the outset, and that he didn't care about getting Nymeria the wolf that actually harmed his "son". So, if the truth about what happened was proven...as it would have been if Sansa had told the truth, he would have told his wife to shut up and walked out. So yes Sansa bears a lot of responsibility for what happened.

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She plots nothing. She gets a note. She summons up courage, and OMG, goes to the godswood. Then, she keeps going there and does whatever Dontos tells her. Same with the Tyrells. No plotting. No nothing. She's a pawn of these other people's plans, none of this is her own, or done on her own initiative.

You don't think the old god's sent the wolves and there is no meaning or symbolism, okay fine, then we have nothing to discuss regarding the meaning of Lady's death.

And Lady is dead because Sansa lied. If she had told the truth, as multiple others have said on this thread then Robert would not have agreed to have Lady killed, since it's clear from the POV which I reread today that he never intended to punish Arya to begin with, from the outset, and that he didn't care about getting Nymeria the wolf that actually harmed his "son". So, if the truth about what happened was proven...as it would have been if Sansa had told the truth, he would have told his wife to shut up and walked out. So yes Sansa bears a lot of responsibility for what happened.

She consciously lies to others. Yes, OMG, she goes to Godswood, which is the opposite of passivity. She had no one but Dontos, and later she believes Tyrells to rely on. Thus. she remains at one place. But, with every visit to Godswood, she showed she isn't passive, she is very much nostalgic for home, that she very much wants to go home. Heck, even when LF takes her, she thinks she is heading towards Winterfell.

I do believe in wolf symbolism of the story, given that I have written at length about it. However, we know nothing about Gods sending the direwolves. These are two very different things - Gods sending the wolves, and the metaphors and symbolism of those wolves.

Lady died because Cersei was bloodthirsty monster, Robert a coward and Ned an honorable man. As many here have pointed out, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't change the essential facts that led to killing direwolves. But, I imagine that some posters choose to forget how Arya chased off Nymeria, how people were afraid of direwolves, how Cersei told that those direwolves wouldn't reach KL, how Robert was ready to put thing aside for the girl, but not for the wolf, how Ned after seeing what psycho his daughter would be getting married, didn't just turn around and took the girls with him. I imagine when you forget all these things, when you discard half the case, than you can get to the flawed conclusion that Sansa is culpable for Lady's death.

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Sansa proved her Stark roots over and over again, even when she was doing against her family (mirroring Lyanna's actions...

Interesting idea, that Sansa had her "Lyanna moment" at that point (if Lyanna ran off, and all sorts of fatal tragedy ensued, then Sansa chooses not to stand against Joffrey, and all sorts of fatal tragedy ensued).

Crazy theory but bear with me. Sansa named her direwolf Lady. She dreamed of knights and songs, she was a proper Lady, but everything was taken away from her and she was forced to leave all that behind and grow up, suffer at the hands of her first love (crush?), endure a forced marriage, run away after she was accused of murder, be a target of her aunt's crazy jealousy, etc. That part of her "died", and I think that's what Lady symbolized. It didn't happen right away, yes, but after Lady's death, sh*t started going down.

Idk, man.

Another interesting interpretation. The beginning of her childhood dreams dying.

As politically clueless and unrealistic as it makes Ned seem, I do think he brought in Sansa with the expectation (or at least in the hope) that she would tell the truth as he knew she knew it to be. I'd have to reread it, but it wouldn't have made sense for him to have brought her in to say nothing either way - it was already Joffrey's word against Arya's, adding nothing to that adds nothing to that. She had told him what really happened and that was what he -being honorable and not political (ie, not a liar) - expected her to tell King Robert. She doesn't, and it costs her her wolf/Stark identity.

Now you can say what Ned did was put her in an impossible situation - but its being an impossible situation is itself an indictment of the girl. Why would she still want to marry Joffrey? She'd seen clearly what he was that day with Mycah. If she had an ounce of honor or honesty in her she'd have wanted nothing to do with that little creep after that incident. But clearly her honor, her honesty, and the honor and honesty of her own family, meant less to her than someday being a queen, so she threw her little sister under the bus and made a liar of her father. Then afterwards looking back, all her hatred concerning the incident is for Arya. "Arya ruins everything." Not a word said about the evil Lannister kid and his treatment of the butcher's boy, and his instigation of the entire incident, and his trying to kill Arya (Sansa's own sister), and then his lying about it all afterward. Sansa doesn't care about any of that. All she minds about that day is how Arya ruined her beautiful princess picnic with the prince. Of course the real reason she doesn't mind any of that is because she isn't a Stark at heart, doesn't care about her family (at least not over the superficial crap she cares about), hates her sister for all she is not, and ultimately agrees with Joffrey's snobbish attacks upon the butcher's boy.

Sansa lost her wolf for a damn good reason.

This is a pretty harsh indictment of Sansa, and a good explanation of why accusations of betrayal get thrown at Sansa.

I think some Sansa fans (though I like her) do overlook it.

However, as a counter-argument, I think Sansa did not consciously betray her family. Yes, she chose the princess dream over the truth and Stark solidarity, but she was 11 and her inexperience at such conflicts was clear.

Up to that point, the only world she knew was Winterfell, and a loving family where basically everyone got along most of the time. In Sansa's life, her only experience with conflict was her (and her friends) versus Arya. But this is still fairly tame stuff and what she had never experienced was conflict between families - the bitter, lethal, adult kind. I don't think she even understood what Joffrey was (did she know any psychopaths in Winterfell?). She's 11 years old and scared and doesn't want to lose her dream life so she says nothing; she doesn't view it as Stark vs. Lannister time, where there is no middle ground and the side proven wrong gets severely punished. Did she think it would be proper if her sister's hand got chopped off in punishment, or Nymeria killed in retribution? I doubt it. Even if she thought Arya was at fault for being her usual "bad girl" self, there was not real malice against Arya intended. If there was, all she had to say was that Joffrey was telling the truth and Arya acted out of malice. Instead she says she doesn't know what happenned; she's trying (like a child) to find some impossible outcome where Arya isn't lying but Joffrey also doesn't hate her. Of course it fails spectacularly, because Sansa didn't appreciate that Joffrey had to be confirmed as completely false or else Stark / wolf blood would spill.

Maybe as gendryas has hinted, Lady's death symbolizes is a transition moment between Sansa the little dreaming girl and Sansa the teen girl with increasingly adult desires and experiences.

Sansa was said by her mother to be "a lady at three". But that ideal lady she wanted to be was a sort of fairy-tale princess, living in a world where deadly conflict was only an abstract, and something that always got solved heroically on the side of right, as if by magic. Lady's world was noble, Lady's world was honourable - and Lady died.

Still, I am curious about why she continues to misinterpret it in her head afterwards - specifically the parts in bold. Sansa is remembering things wrong even long after she hates Joffrey, still spinning false memories of the incident in her head - and we know it is false because it was in Sansa's POV that we see the incident happen directly, and later it doesn't match up. GRRM has hinted there are parts were we have an "unreliable narrator", and this is clearly one of them. The real question is why.

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She consciously lies to others. Yes, OMG, she goes to Godswood, which is the opposite of passivity. She had no one but Dontos, and later she believes Tyrells to rely on. Thus. she remains at one place. But, with every visit to Godswood, she showed she isn't passive, she is very much nostalgic for home, that she very much wants to go home. Heck, even when LF takes her, she thinks she is heading towards Winterfell.

I do believe in wolf symbolism of the story, given that I have written at length about it. However, we know nothing about Gods sending the direwolves. These are two very different things - Gods sending the wolves, and the metaphors and symbolism of those wolves.

Lady died because Cersei was bloodthirsty monster, Robert a coward and Ned an honorable man. As many here have pointed out, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't change the essential facts that led to killing direwolves. But, I imagine that some posters choose to forget how Arya chased off Nymeria, how people were afraid of direwolves, how Cersei told that those direwolves wouldn't reach KL, how Robert was ready to put thing aside for the girl, but not for the wolf, how Ned after seeing what psycho his daughter would be getting married, didn't just turn around and took the girls with him. I imagine when you forget all these things, when you discard half the case, than you can get to the flawed conclusion that Sansa is culpable for Lady's death.

This just is not true that Robert was ready to put things aside for the girl and not the wolf. Robert says he forgot about the wolf. Then he asks and is told they can't find the wolf and is basically done with it, he doesn't care, he's walking out. Only then, grasping at straws, having lost at getting Arya punished and seeing that Robert could care less about Nymeria does she hit upon the wolf they already have. And then he gives in to her. Of course Arya chased off Nymeria because Lannister men were looking for her, Robert wasn't out looking for her, he's not interested in killing Ned's daughters wolves.

We will have to agree to disagree, as many others have said on this thread...if Sansa has told the truth as her father clearly expected her to, there is every reason to believe that Lady would not have been killed because Cersei wouldn't even have had a pretext for it since her son's version would have been proven false.

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Interesting idea, that Sansa had her "Lyanna moment" at that point (if Lyanna ran off, and all sorts of fatal tragedy ensued, then Sansa chooses not to stand against Joffrey, and all sorts of fatal tragedy ensued).

Well, I believe that (bumps taught me this word can be used in this case) Lyanna represents the intersection of both Stark girls. We have heard how Arya is being compared to Lyanna over and over again, but all the comparison is either about the interests, looks, temper. But, then you see Lyanna's story, and you move it and compare with the girls, and Sansa is the one who gets also some striking parallels. From that "defending the weak" moment, being crowned as QOLAB, or in Sansa's case being given a red rose instead of white, both of them choosing love over duty and obedience, plus the motherhood theme in their storylines. Never forget that the first comparison ever made with Lyanna was actually when Ned compared how Sansa pleaded just like her. People should have in mind that riding, looks and temper isn't all there is to Lyanna. I am currently working on a thread dedicated to Lyanna/Arya/Sansa triangle.

This just is not true that Robert was ready to put things aside for the girl and not the wolf. Robert says he forgot about the wolf. Then he asks and is told they can't find the wolf and is basically done with it, he doesn't care, he's walking out. Only then, grasping at straws, having lost at getting Arya punished and seeing that Robert could care less about Nymeria does she hit upon the wolf they already have. And then he gives in to her. Of course Arya chased off Nymeria because Lannister men were looking for her, Robert wasn't out looking for her, he's not interested in killing Ned's daughters wolves.

Actually it is true. Robert didn't say to Cersei "No, don't kill the wolf", he just left her to do as she liked. Meaning, while Arya was never in danger with Robert, Nymeria certainly was. And Arya chased Nymeria because she knew her direwolf was in danger. Not from Lannister soldiers, but from King too.

We will have to agree to disagree, as many others have said on this thread...if Sansa has told the truth as her father clearly expected her to, there is every reason to believe that Lady would not have been killed because Cersei wouldn't even have had a pretext for it since her son's version would have been proven false.

Of course we have to agree to disagree. I find it very amusing that you use constantly the phrase "as many others have said" I imagine the lack of argument can be substituted by the quantity of those who believe in the same idea. However, the text clearly shows you are wrong and having dozen, hundred or even thousand of people agreeing with you won't change that.

For the end of this rather boring exchange with you, Lady died because Cersei wanted blood, Robert was a coward and Ned too honorable for his own good.

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I think the direwolves might represent the connection the Stark children have to Ned's ideals. Sansa lied, Lady died. Robb became too ambitious and was preparing not only to protect the North but prepare a punitive venture against Casterly Rock, he loses Winterfell, and breaks his word to Lord Frey - he and Grey Wolf die. Arya has lost her way as has her wolf but she remains committed to her mission of revenge at all costs regardless of what she tells the Kindly Man, so long as she does not betray that then Nymeria should be alright. Shaggydog is hard to elucidate since we have little background or knowledge of Rickon after he leaves Bran while Summer protects the realm at any cost. Ghost stays at the wall and remains the largest of all, thriving in a climate where most would suffer.


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Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

Well, one (darker) interpretation of Sansa is this - Sansa does seem like the one Stark who is not revolted by lying. (They all can do it, but some of them have to be forced into it.) "A lie, but kindly meant" seems to be a recurring theme in her story. The danger of hanging out with Littlefinger is adopting his ethics in this regard (even if it ultimately turns against him - is it really a victory to become deceitful enough to deceive a deceiver?)

Sansa's moments of stubborn / provocative honesty are fewer, but they come at interesting moments.

I am a bit of a stuck record on this point, but the fact is, Sansa has very little in common with Cat, at least Sansa as she is at the beginning of AGOT, and arguably has more in common with Arya. Cat is an immensely practical, down-to-earth person with very little interest in romance or songs or court proprieties or beautiful dresses. She doesn't blink an eye at traveling without a maid or a wardrobe, without anyone other than Ser Rodrik, roughing it on the road when necessary, even fighting when she has to. Unlike Sansa, we know she has a head for maths and the practicalities of running not only a household, but an army. She is well aware of political realities and not blind to what courtly life actually is - a political power struggle.

None of this is in any way similar to Sansa. Sansa is no less a Stark, but she's not very much like her mother, at least not yet.

Cat is more realistic / pragmatic than Sansa seems to be, but then again is also looking from many more years of hard experience.

To say Cat shows little interest in romance or court proprieties or beautiful dresses is untrue. Her own POV shows how proud she was of Sansa knowing all that stuff almost instinctively, of not only matching but exceeding Cat in these respects. As well, to the extent Cat seems to consider it regarding Arya, she despairs that Arya seemed to disdain it.

(As for courtly manners - Ned was certainly not boorish, and knew how to show genuine courtesy and respect, but he was was a soldier at heart and treated all the pomp and pageantry as a sort of deceitful burden.)

There is one aspect of this incident that I haven't seen discussed and always wondered about. If Sansa had said what really did happen, then wouldn't she have been confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first so hard that it made him bleed? Isn't that a huge no no in this World in which striking the crown prince is a crime punishable by death? It doesn't matter if he deserved it.

Well, not quite. Yes, by the letter of the law, Joffrey could probably have tortured Mycah any way he wanted, and Arya striking him at all (even to save someone) was a crime against a royal person.

However, also remember that the letter of the law states that the King is the ultimate arbiter of anything, and the law is in effect whatever he decrees. Therefore, if Sansa had told the full truth, namely that Joffrey had started cutting up some butcher's boy with his sword (who was helpless and submissive, and had only been playing at swords with a stick as every boy does), well can you imagine what the King would have said to that ?

With only Arya (the accused) and Joffrey (the alleged victim) contradicting each other, custom dictates that the royal one's word is considered more worthy - unless of course the King simply does not believe him, and then custom doesn't matter. And Robert didn't believe Joffrey, as we can see. It was Cersei who browbeat Robert into seeing it as a crime at all. However, if Sansa Stark also confirmed that it began with Joffrey tormenting some peasant just to show off, then imagine how the mighty King Robert would react - the man who once clouted his son in the head for killing a cat. Sure, even with Sansa's word added to Arya's, Cersei would not have been satisfied and Robert could have still declared it a crime (striking one of royal blood), but it's not bloody likely. Sansa is seen as a sweet girl who is not the least bit belligerent; more importantly, she's a witness who was not on either side during the conflict. The odds go way up of Robert declaring that the prince was in the wrong - and since a King's word trumps a prince (or a queen, or anyone else), that would be the end of it. The tragedy is that Robert called it right at the outset, and knew it was his boy who was being a shithead and started the incident, but he caved in to Cersei so she'd stop yammering in his ear.

Robert was well aware that Joffrey was lying, he admitted it to Ned at the Hand's tourney. Plus, what kind of person turns his back to a pleading 11 year-old girl that will one day become your daughter-in-law? I think that Lady's death showed how deprived of any courage Robert truly is.

True. It was cowardly - but even his "boys will be boys" first reaction did not really admit the full extent of what took place at the Trident. "Kids fight" ? - it was hardly child's play. The added pressure was that Robert dared not admit that the mighty warrior king had a cruel and cowardly son that basically got humiliated by a little girl. (I mean even Renly was laughing at the king's son for being such a sissy.) To paint the crown prince in that light not only reflects badly on Robert the Warrior King, but then raises thorny issues of whether Joffrey is fit to be a king at all. Basically, Robert cannot admit (in public anyway) that his "son" is a failure as a man.

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Just thought of one other thing regarding the incident starting - maybe someone has thought of this before, maybe not...



Joffrey may have come down so hard on Mycah because of the fact Mycah was playing at swords with a piece of wood.



Earlier on in Winterfell, we see Joffrey's conflict with Robb Stark, over the issue of having to use wooden training swords. Joffrey suggests using live steel, because as we also see, Robb was beating him in the practice yard. Not that this attempt to intimidate Robb works at all (Robb was game to try).



Later on, before the Mycah incident, Joffrey is bragging to Sansa that he has a real sword to protect her with, unlike some (Robb) who fight with wood weapons.



When he comes upon Mycah and Arya playing, Joffrey make statements about Mycah's lower class, but perhaps really Joffrey was just (sadistically) taking out his frustrations about the earlier incident with Robb (where Joffrey was shown up). Joffrey is cruel to Mycah because he is treating Mycah as a surrogate for Robb Stark.


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Interesting idea. I would keep that in mind as part of Joffrey's motivation, the other parts being (1)Joffrey's showing off for Sansa, who he's trying to impress, he sees Sansa's little sister apparently being bullied by a peasant boy and swaggers in there to right the wrong and punish the lumpish peon - and he's not going to change course because of Arya's insistence that the lumpish peon is her friend and fought her at her request; (2)Joffrey's a nasty bully who gets a charge out of hurting those who can't fight back.

Poor Mycah really didn't have a chance. Perhaps, if Sansa had been mature enough to bat her eyelashes at Joffrey and compliment his 'justice' while pleading for mercy for the 'foolish' boy (and if Arya could have stayed quiet for a minute), Mycah could have survived with a scar or two; but both Stark sisters were upset and Sansa didn't yet know how to even try to handle the royal sadist.

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LOL, yes, of course he knows Lady didn't bite anyone. He says the wolves are too dangerous to have as a pet because thats his own rationalization for why he is ordering the killing of a wolf that has not bitten anyone or misbehaved in any manner. He's lying to himself, as is his tendency.

Robert certainly is given to lying to himself, and this is certainly a convenient rationalisation for giving in to Cersei - but the bald fact is, he is not wrong here. It's perhaps a bit of a story flaw, how little Ned seems to have considered the actual practicalities of ensconcing two dire wolves in the capital city. The Red Keep isn't Winterfell. Putting aside all the problems with them being cooped up with maybe the run of a small godswood, with maybe a squirrel or two or rats to hunt at most, they'd be surrounded by strange people and strange animals, strange noises and strange smells, and strange situations. They'd have a hard time adjusting. And if they were inclined to react to threats in the way that Nymeria did... well, to Robert at least (and to most adults in the party), it must have seemed a matter of time before someone in King's Landing got badly hurt by one or other of the wolves.

So, sorry, but I think that there was nothing Sansa could have done or said that would have saved Lady. Cersei would always have wanted some measure of revenge, so she'd always have asked for Lady's head - and no matter what Sansa said, Robert's reasons would still apply, and would still be genuinely persuasive to him. The truth, in the end, was that Nymeria's intervention (whether in reaction to Joff's aggression or not) showed the risks of having these large, predatory animals in a huge, strange city.

Dunk kicked Aerion's teeth out and nothing happened to him.

Nothing happened to him?

Most of the second part of The Hedge Knight is dedicated to what happened to Dunk as a result. Surviving the consequences does not mean there were none.

She is a snob - it's one of, if not her main trait.

If there's one trait that Cat definitely does not have, far less being her 'main' trait, it's being a snob. She's far more concerned with the fate and the lives of the common people than almost any other noble character in the entire series.

Well, one (darker) interpretation of Sansa is this - Sansa does seem like the one Stark who is not revolted by lying. (They all can do it, but some of them have to be forced into it.)

Not Arya. Arya lies as easy as breathing, and has since at least ACOK. And most of her lies aren't really 'kindly meant'.

To say Cat shows little interest in romance or court proprieties or beautiful dresses is untrue.

No, it really is true. When does Cat ever even think about what she, or any other female character, is wearing? Rarely. As I said, she travels with no maid and no wardrobe, something most noblewomen wouldn't do. Nice dresses are just not something she's interested in at all. Romance? Her love for Ned is not a romantic love, it's one that develops over time from mutual respect, duty and shared lives. It's no less genuine or worthy for that, but it's not a Florian-and-Jonquil romance - there's zero evidence that Cat has ever had any interest in that type of romance, or regards it as something that happens in real life.

At most, you can say that Cat recognises that knowledge of court proprieties is an important tool that her daughters will need to master, as noble women do.

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Robert certainly is given to lying to himself, and this is certainly a convenient rationalisation for giving in to Cersei - but the bald fact is, he is not wrong here. It's perhaps a bit of a story flaw, how little Ned seems to have considered the actual practicalities of ensconcing two dire wolves in the capital city. The Red Keep isn't Winterfell. Putting aside all the problems with them being cooped up with maybe the run of a small godswood, with maybe a squirrel or two or rats to hunt at most, they'd be surrounded by strange people and strange animals, strange noises and strange smells, and strange situations. They'd have a hard time adjusting. And if they were inclined to react to threats in the way that Nymeria did... well, to Robert at least (and to most adults in the party), it must have seemed a matter of time before someone in King's Landing got badly hurt by one or other of the wolves.

So, sorry, but I think that there was nothing Sansa could have done or said that would have saved Lady. Cersei would always have wanted some measure of revenge, so she'd always have asked for Lady's head - and no matter what Sansa said, Robert's reasons would still apply, and would still be genuinely persuasive to him. The truth, in the end, was that Nymeria's intervention (whether in reaction to Joff's aggression or not) showed the risks of having these large, predatory animals in a huge, strange city.

Err, hang on. What do you imagine the alternative to Nymeria's intervention would have been? Thank the gods that Ned brought the wolves along, else Arya would be dead now, at the hands of Joffrey the Mad and his sword Lion's Tooth or whatever the hell he called it.

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Err, hang on. What do you imagine the alternative to Nymeria's intervention would have been? Thank the gods that Ned brought the wolves along, else Arya would be dead now, at the hands of Joffrey the Mad and his sword Lion's Tooth or whatever the hell he called it.

What does that have to do with it? I'm not suggesting that it would have been better for Arya if Ned had never brought the wolves. I'm pointing out that even if Sansa had told the absolute unvarnished truth about every aspect of the incident, Cersei would still have insisted it showed the wolves were dangerous wild animals, and Robert would almost certainly have agreed.

If a dog bites someone, it tends to get put down no matter what the circumstances, purely because we know it's capable of biting a human and we can't know when or why it might do so again. This is the same thing. In any case, even if Sansa had told the truth, there would be no way of proving that Joff would actually have killed Arya if not for Nymeria.

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What does that have to do with it? I'm not suggesting that it would have been better for Arya if Ned had never brought the wolves. I'm pointing out that even if Sansa had told the absolute unvarnished truth about every aspect of the incident, Cersei would still have insisted it showed the wolves were dangerous wild animals, and Robert would almost certainly have agreed.

If a dog bites someone, it tends to get put down no matter what the circumstances, purely because we know it's capable of biting a human and we can't know when or why it might do so again. This is the same thing. In any case, even if Sansa had told the truth, there would be no way of proving that Joff would actually have killed Arya if not for Nymeria.

I'll give it to you that is the best argument I've heard for why Sansa's statement may not have affected the outcome, and you may be right about how the wolves would have fared in KL.

But, I am still going to disagree that Robert would have given in to Cersei at that time, on that issue, and killed that wolf. I agree with the poster who pointed out how this scene was about Ned/Robert/Cersei and Ned helping Robert stand up to her typical irrational BS and this is what role Sansa would have played if she had done what he expected her to...tell the story truthfully. Robert's attitude toward the wolves in that passage is indifferent, he's walking out, he's not going to stop her men from hunting Nymeria, but he's doing nothing active himself, so I can't see that if the truth were known he would have gone ahead and indulged Cersei with having Lady killed.

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I'll give it to you that is the best argument I've heard for why Sansa's statement may not have affected the outcome, and you may be right about how the wolves would have fared in KL.

But, I am still going to disagree that Robert would have given in to Cersei at that time, on that issue, and killed that wolf. I agree with the poster who pointed out how this scene was about Ned/Robert/Cersei and Ned helping Robert stand up to her typical irrational BS and this is what role Sansa would have played if she had done what he expected her to...tell the story truthfully. Robert's attitude toward the wolves in that passage is indifferent, he's walking out, he's not going to stop her men from hunting Nymeria, but he's doing nothing active himself, so I can't see that if the truth were known he would have gone ahead and indulged Cersei with having Lady killed.

The way I see it is that the incident creates a situation where it's very easy for Robert to have Lady killed: more, it creates a situation where he basically has to have a reason not to kill her, and he just doesn't have one. Nymeria has shown the problem with taking the wolves to court in the first place: they're not lapdogs or kittens, they're big, strong, well-equipped predators that are only going to get bigger and more dangerous.

Robert's biggest sin in all this, for me, is that he cuts off all his best options by unthinkingly creating a situation where the whole affair has to be played out in front of the court. There is no way that was ever going to be the smart thing to do, and his excuse for doing it is feeble.

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The way I see it is that the incident creates a situation where it's very easy for Robert to have Lady killed: more, it creates a situation where he basically has to have a reason not to kill her, and he just doesn't have one. Nymeria has shown the problem with taking the wolves to court in the first place: they're not lapdogs or kittens, they're big, strong, well-equipped predators that are only going to get bigger and more dangerous.

Robert's biggest sin in all this, for me, is that he cuts off all his best options by unthinkingly creating a situation where the whole affair has to be played out in front of the court. There is no way that was ever going to be the smart thing to do, and his excuse for doing it is feeble.

Yes, but this is exactly why he needs Ned in the first place, because he has become so self indulgent and lost in whores and wine and hunting he doesn't stop to think what he's doing or the consequences of his actions. He knows, in my opinion, he's never going to do anything to Ned Stark's 9 year old daughter, even if Sansa had gone the whole other way and backed Joff, he's going to tell Ned to punish her...so he doesn't pay attention at the stupidity of the set up for his new Hand...a room full of Lannister men, or, I mean, where in the hell are the Baratheon men from the Storm lands? The very fact that his court is overrun with his wife's retainers instead of his own is beyond stupid. He just gives in to Cersei, let's her blab on about the Targaryen way of doing things and so he allows for this massive public confrontation show down between his Hand and his Queen because he's not really paying attention. And this is the exact type of situation he should already know his wife will refuse to lose in. But then you know I find him a very tragic character, despite that his tragedy is almost all self inflicted.

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Well, all true tragedy (in the dramatic sense) is self-inflicted, or at least the result of character flaws: and there's no doubting that Robert is very much a tragic figure. :)

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