Daendrew Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 "A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." - Littlefinger Ned made a scuplture of Lyanna to place in the crypt, something normally reserved only for kings. This is because she was actually a queen. There are no other female tombs in the crypt. Ned is a man of tradition and honor. Would he break all tradition goign back centuries because he loved his sister? Almost all the kings and lords of Winterfell loved their dead sisters and wives. Only the male tombs have swords across their laps, intended to conceal their spirits within. Lyanna has a harp. Indicating it will not release spirits if the sword is removed, as there is no sword. It is not just any harp, but Rhaegars harp with silver strings. Rhegar is mentioned with the harp in four of the five books, practically every time he was mentioned. Cersei, Jorah Mormont, Daenerys, Ser Barristan and Jon Connington are all characters who recall seeing the harp.With Connington being in love with Rhaegar I wonder what his reaction would be towards fAegon. The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about as GRRM frequently echos Falkner. "Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.” Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,”" -ACoK Silver strings are mentioned very often, it is not just a regular harp stringed instrument. It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.” _Ser Barristan ACoK Having just his harp proves nothing. But bundled with documents, proving legitimacy, and the greatest proof of Targaryenity, riding a dragon can seal the deal. By going into the crypt to see Lyannas tomb, it would be a waking of a dragon out of stone. He walked in a bastard Stark and after receiving word is awoken as a Targaryen dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Targaryen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I've been wondering about this for some time now. I'm of the mind that it's a Targaryen wedding cloak with Lyanna. Everyone knows the story of her and Rhaegar, a cloak could prove marriage. I also know Torrhen's Crown is floating around here as well, and it's also a very likely idea. But having Rhaegar's harp with Lyanna could be another big deal. The silver strings, as you said, have often been noted. Rhaegar was known for playing his harp, and possibly played for Lyanna in the Tower of Joy. Besides, if it's a specifically carved harp, like with a dragon motif, it would be easily recognizable as would be the strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Wait if there is a harp there, why didn't Robert saw it? Didn't he visited the grave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Unless Jon is going to call a press conference and invite all the lords of Westeros to the crypts I am not sure how anything there is going to prove his "legitimacy". If there is anything there it will be for Jon's benefit only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 "A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." - Littlefinger Ned made a scuplture of Lyanna to place in the crypt, something normally reserved only for kings. This is because she was actually a queen. There are no other female tombs in the crypt. Ned is a man of tradition and honor. Would he break all tradition goign back centuries because he loved his sister? Almost all the kings and lords of Winterfell loved their dead sisters and wives. If she is there because she was a queen then what about all the queen's of the North when the Starks were Kings in the North? They were queens too and should be in crypts too shouldn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 She was Queen or Queen Mother of the Iron Throne. Queen in Winterfell is less than a Lord. Lord and higher get statues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 "Jon tells Sam of a recurring dream he has of Winterfell. He dreams he is walking in a long, empty hall in the castle, his voice echoing around him and no one is answering. He is looking for someone, but he isn't sure who, sometimes it is his father, sometimes Robb, or Arya, or even Benjen. But he never finds anyone, the castle is always empty. Even the ravens are gone, and the stables are full of bones. It scares him, and he runs around looking for someone. Then he finds himself in front of the door to the crypts, and he knows he has to go down there, but he doesn't want to. He's afraid of what is waiting for him. Not the old Kings of Winter, but something else. He screams that he is not a Stark, that it isn't his place, but it is no good and he feels he has to go down, so he starts, with no torch to light his way. It gets darker and darker, until he wants to scream, and then he wakes up." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 A good catch with the Petyr quote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Ummm where is the actual evidence? Robert missed the Harp? It is a wire strung high harp. Silver strings produces the best sounds. A queen in the north is lower than a lord? So he didn't bury her there because he loved her but because she was queen. His own internal thoughts say just the opposite. He also tells you the color of wine every time a glass is poured or even talked about. Perhaps that is also the secret to Jon.I don't doubt there is something in the crypt but I doubt it is a bunch of paper work. Also Lyanna was never a Queen, as Rhaegar died a prince. She doesn't get a crown if he doesn't get a crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Ummm where is the actual evidence? Robert missed the Harp? Yes this is also what i asked, i doubt Robert would have the missed the harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Didn't Brandon also got a statue? He wasn't the Lord of Winterfell, or King in the North. Nice theory though. But also, about the harp, shouldn't it be inside the tomb? Is it ever described how Lyanna's tomb look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Yes this is also what i asked, i doubt Robert would have the missed the harp. I think it would be in the tomb, not on top of it, people would start to wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I think it would be in the tomb, not on top of it, people would start to wonder.Hmm that does make sense, INSIDE. Well i wonder it would be on top, since swords as mementos are kept on top...... IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Yes this is also what i asked, i doubt Robert would have the missed the harp. Depends on whether the harp was at the ToJ when Ned, Howland, et al arrived there. Perhaps Rhaegar hid it in the ruins of Summerhall on the way back to King's Landing. Robert would only have gotten it if Rhaegar left it in the Red Keep or took it with him to the Trident. And if it was in the Red Keep, Varys might have hidden it and then sent it to Magister Illyrio in Pentos or given it to him when Illyrio came to King's Landing. There are lots of possibilities here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahura Mazda Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Well, that would be evidence enough to call Ned a burglar of harps as much as it is evidence for Jon being Rhaegar's son. At least in the eyes of Westeros inhabitants. Unless Jon learns to use the harp and sing beautiful songs from Satin or (who was it? might he be..) Pip then I believe people will just refute the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Depends on whether the harp was at the ToJ when Ned, Howland, et al arrived there. Perhaps Rhaegar hid it in the ruins of Summerhall on the way back to King's Landing. Robert would only have gotten it if Rhaegar left it in the Red Keep or took it with him to the Trident. And if it was in the Red Keep, Varys might have hidden it and then sent it to Magister Illyrio in Pentos or given it to him when Illyrio came to King's Landing. There are lots of possibilities here.Rhaegar played his harp at public events as well. The Tourney at Harrenhall for example. Robert was there as well. Rhaegar playing a harp seem to me was relatively well known throughout Westeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Would Lyanna be a queen if Rhaegar was never king? I think there is something in the crypts but I don't think Ned needed an excuse to put Lyanna down there. He was lord, he could do as he liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Would Lyanna be a queen if Rhaegar was never king? I think there is something in the crypts but I don't think Ned needed an excuse to put Lyanna down there. He was lord, he could do as he liked. No, Rhaegar was never King, and thus Lyanna could not have been a Queen. But she was the Queen of Love and Beauty in 281 AC, so perhaps it symbolizes that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Didn't we just have this thread here (the possibly game changing secret in the winterfell crypts?) It is a nice idea, but I don't think it is very important because everybody (ok lots of people) know that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a relationship. Extra proof doesn't change anything in particular. What isn't widespread is the idea that Jon might be the fruit of that relationship. Lyanna being a Queen, legitimately married or having Rhaegar's harp doesn't change that. What you'd need is some kind of evidence that links Lyanna to Jon and establishes that she is or could be his mother within the books. That is very difficult. The only living person who might know is Howland Reed (and would he know that The Ned planned to bring Jon up at Winterfell? The two don't seem to have been in contact). The Tower of Joy was destroyed (twice I suppose if we go with the double entendre) so no chance of helpful graffiti ('I woz here, signed Lyanna Stark Targaryen, plus I'm pregnant, call him Jon if it's a boy'). Documents? Do births have to be registered at the Citadel in westeros, I doubt it somehow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I've always been resistant to the idea of the harp being in Winterfell's crypts because when I picture a harp, it's pretty big and not exactly light for travelling? Ned went to KL to tell Robert that Lyanna was dead, right, so that left Howland Reed and possibly a wetnurse underway to Winterfell by ship? So the wetnurse held a baby and Howland dragged a harp all the way up there? An egg is so much simpler, even a crown. Though that's a very nice quote from Littlefinger right there. Perhaps Westeros will never believe Jon is a legitimate Targaryen, but since he's already legitimised a Stark it won't matter much, in the end. Being of the Stark name is not a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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