bayjew Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 I don't hate any characters in ASoIaF. I think they're all great and just make the tapestry of this story that much richer. I'll take as much and as many as I can get! Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 Why thank you! I was actually considering making a very similar (and likely a bit lengthier) topic to this one about how the very popular opinion that Theon is The Actual Worst and completely deserving of such an awful fate is an unmerited and inappropriate response to what GRRM had intended. I was going to base it off of some reading from a philosophy class that I took called the Merited-Response argument (tl;dr summary starts at #20 near the bottom) presented in Berys Gaut's The Ethical Criticism of Art. I'm really bummed that I hadn't gotten into ASoIaF until a few months after that class ended, I could have written a killer paper for it. :crying: You beat me to it so another time, perhaps! Dude you should write it man I'd love to read it sounds good! I've been reading these forums for the better part of a year and thought I'd just try it out and get some opinions on what people felt. As I said a lot of my friends are completely unsympathetic to many characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Why thank you! I was actually considering making a very similar (and likely a bit lengthier) topic to this one about how the very popular opinion that Theon is The Actual Worst and completely deserving of such an awful fate is an unmerited and inappropriate response to what GRRM had intended. I was going to base it off of some reading from a philosophy class that I took called the Merited-Response argument (tl;dr summary starts at #20 near the bottom) presented in Berys Gaut's The Ethical Criticism of Art. I'm really bummed that I hadn't gotten into ASoIaF until a few months after that class ended, I could have written a killer paper for it. :crying: You beat me to it so another time, perhaps! Is that a popular opinion though? Theon is widely despised, more than say, Jamie Lannister, which I would say is unfair, but I think most people felt his torture was over the top and undeserved and a lot of people want him to survive the series. His arc is often cited as one of GRRMs best because he takes a widely hated character and makes the audience extremely sympathetic to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thornhart Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 How is Theon a rapist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Theon will be the Ironlord lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 How is Theon a rapist? He raped the mother of the boys whose heads he took, if I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 He raped the mother of the boys whose heads he took, if I recall. I think that's wrong, he had sex with her, I don't remember any force being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I think that's wrong, he had sex with her, I don't remember any force being used. Wasn't there a rape under his command? She was killed as well. I'm not sure if he participated in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayjew Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 How is Theon a rapist? When he has intercourse with Kyra in Winterfell a lot of people seem to believe it was rape. Personally a bit divided on the matter about Kyra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Wasn't there a rape under his command? She was killed as well. I'm not sure if he participated in person. I don't remember him raping anyone, he used women, as he thought was the "ironborn" way, and part of his privilege as both a high born lord's son and a very good looking guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thornhart Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 He raped the mother of the boys whose heads he took, if I recall. If I recall, Theon had consensual sex with her before the books began. Wasn't there a rape under his command? That doesn't make him a rapist. And I don't think this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 How is Theon a rapist? He raped the mother of the boys whose heads he took, if I recall. When he has intercourse with Kyra in Winterfell a lot of people seem to believe it was rape. Personally a bit divided on the matter about Kyra It wasn't the Miller's wife, he had slept with her a couple times prior to the events in the series. He raped Kyra after (I think?) Ramsay manipulated him into passing off the Miller's boys as Bran and Rickon. It probably started of as it usually did (consensually), but Theon was in desperate need to feel in control and has the unfortunate tendency to lash out at others to elevate himself, and he probably ignored her protests once he started to get out of control. It's his lowest point. Wasn't there a rape under his command? She was killed as well. I'm not sure if he participated in person. I think a couple of the Ironborn raped a girl after they took Winterfell, but he punished them both and tried to put a stop to that kind of behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Is that a popular opinion though? Theon is widely despised, more than say, Jamie Lannister, which I would say is unfair, but I think most people felt his torture was over the top and undeserved and a lot of people want him to survive the series. His arc is often cited as one of GRRMs best because he takes a widely hated character and makes the audience extremely sympathetic to him. It's pretty popular from what I've seen, at least. And funnily enough, it's usually for the wrong reasons. His worst offenses (his complicity in the murder of the miller's boys, raping Kyra) almost always seem to come second to "HE BETRAYED THE STARKS!!!11!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Although i like theon, i don't forgive him for the death of farlen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It's pretty popular from what I've seen, at least. And funnily enough, it's usually for the wrong reasons. His worst offenses (his complicity in the murder of the miller's boys, raping Kyra) almost always seem to come second to "HE BETRAYED THE STARKS!!!11!" I'll have to reread the Kyra part, I don't remember it as a rape exactly. But, he did more than betray the Starks, his betrayal is a huge factor in Robb's eventual demise, he could never absorb both losing the Freys and losing Winterfell to his supposed ally and friend. Theon also causes a ton of deaths of innocent people at Winterfell, including the maester and Rodrick Cassell and it is his fault it is burned down. He also betrays his own people to Ramsay knowing full well he's going to kill them all. The miller's boys is the worst thing he did, killing children of your former lover in order to save your pride...it doesn't get much worse than that. Theon has a lot to answer for, which is why he deserves death. He recognizes his crimes and feels true remorse, which is why he deserves a measure of redemption. The great thing about his character is that he feels remorse for all this as it's happening, but is too weak willed to stop himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewmaster Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Betraying the Starks is probably Theon's most forgivable offense. As readers, we are conditioned to see the Starks as noble, but Theon was a hostage taken from an enemy house. It would be similar to Sansa eventually betraying Littlefinger. We just like the Starks and think their cause is just and noble, and we hate Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Betraying the Starks is probably Theon's most forgivable offense. As readers, we are conditioned to see the Starks as noble, but Theon was a hostage taken from an enemy house. It would be similar to Sansa eventually betraying Littlefinger. We just like the Starks and think their cause is just and noble, and we hate Littlefinger. Robb, who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I'll have to reread the Kyra part, I don't remember it as a rape exactly. But, he did more than betray the Starks, his betrayal is a huge factor in Robb's eventual demise, he could never absorb both losing the Freys and losing Winterfell to his supposed ally and friend. Theon also causes a ton of deaths of innocent people at Winterfell, including the maester and Rodrick Cassell and it is his fault it is burned down. He also betrays his own people to Ramsay knowing full well he's going to kill them all. The miller's boys is the worst thing he did, killing children of your former lover in order to save your pride...it doesn't get much worse than that. Theon has a lot to answer for, which is why he deserves death. He recognizes his crimes and feels true remorse, which is why he deserves a measure of redemption. The great thing about his character is that he feels remorse for all this as it's happening, but is too weak willed to stop himself. Robb's demise was his own doing. Theon didn't force him to sleep with Jeyne and break off his betrothal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewmaster Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Robb, who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him True, it's a tragic event. But imagine Sansa's POV after another decade with Littlefinger. Petyr, who had been more a father to Sansa than her own.... Free will is a very important thing. Theon was a captive and could not even visit his home. The fact that his own father is a bastard and he became close with his captors doesn't change it. He's not too bright and his plan to hold Winterfell was unthought out, but he shouldn't be blamed too harshly for choosing his family's side over his captor's family's side in the war. We just prefer his Captor's family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I don't hate Theon, though his personality is abhorrent, in my opinion. Not because he's bad but because he's whiny and annoying. Having said that, even more than the murders, consider that if Theon doesn't pass Bran and Rickon off as dead, Cat doesn't release Jaime, making any moves by Tywin against Robb harder, Robb doesn't sleep with Jeyne, preserving the Frey alliance and probably not turning Roose against him. etc. etc. Does he deserve torture? Of course not, no-one does, but at the same time, is he really repentant of what he did, or is it just the punishment he regrets? Would be do it again if he could be assured of succeeding? It's hard to say, in my interpretation. I'm not convinced either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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