A black crow and a pink letter

[jet199]

I think the idea that Mel was involved with the letter to convince Jon of her powers is interesting. What if Stannis finds out that her playing these games has gotten Jon stabbed? I am thinking that this could be the thing that drives them apart. Especially if he finds out the same time that Davos turns up and reveals he has secured the Manderleys. People ask what the point would be of GRRM having the letter written by Mance but it could change the course of quite a few characters if it reveals the Mel is a charlatan once and for all.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm getting more and more convinced that Stannis, Ramsay and Mance just got drunk one night and wrote the damn letter together to fuck with Jon.

No way those three would. Stannis, Roose and Mance, on the other hand... yeah, I can see that.

"And don't forget to call him bastard."

"Bastard! Tee hee... that's hilarious! Because he is! Fuck, the bottle is empty again. You writing this, Mance?"

"...empty again. Got it. Damn, another inkblot. Now it looks sloppy. Gotta rewrite it in the morning. Hey, guys, I didn't know I could write!"

[Lykos]

"cut out your bastard's heart and eat it" is a greater wildling slip in my opinion.

Cotter Pyke to Jon in Storm after Jon was elected

"Lord Snow," said Cotter Pyke, "if you muck this up, I'm going to rip your liver out and eat it raw with onions."

Martyn Rivers to Catelyn in Clash

" Rivers lowered his voice. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf."

"I would not believe such tales," Catelyn said sharply. "My son is no savage."

The Blackfish to Jaime in Feast

Ser Brynden laughed again.

"Much as I would welcome the chance to take that golden sword away from you and cut out your black heart, your promises are worthless. I would gain nothing from your death but the pleasure of killing you,

and I will not risk my own life for that... as small a risk as that may be."

Obviously Martin likes to use patterns, so little differences as the black before the crows become important. But I think the context is even more important. Martin likes to keep us readers in suspense yet the twists need to be believable and therefore need to be the more carefully prepared the greater they are.

Here are some quotes that caught my attention.

Unasked for gifts.

“Thank you, but no.”

“As you wish. I have a gift for you, Lord Snow.” The king waved a hand at Rattleshirt.

“Him.”

Lady Melisandre smiled. “You did say you wanted men, Lord Snow. I believe our Lord of Bones still qualifies.”

Jon was aghast. “Your Grace, this man cannot be trusted. If I keep him here, someone will slit his throat for him. If I send him ranging, he’ll just go back over to the wildlings.”

“Not me. I’m done with those bloody fools.” Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. “Ask your red witch, bastard.”

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt’s wrist was brightening and darkening as well. “So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me,

blood and soul,” the red priestess said. “This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow.”

Perhaps not, Jon thought, but you do.

“I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.”

I bolded the expressions that appear in the pink letter. I also noted how the reveal of Rattleshirt being Mance is prepared here. Mance claimed to have left the Watch because of his red silk adorned cloak and sang pretty songs to Jon.

The next gift is offered after Ramsay´s letter announcing "Arya´s" marriage arrives. It has already been noted by other posters that Jon thinks that only the Boltons use pink wax and this seal is described as a button. Ramsay signed in blood in his huge spiky hand. Jon thinks that Lady Dustin is a lord - or is this a mistake?

Melisandre seems surprisingly aware of the content of that letter when she stages an incredible show to impress Jon.

“Lord Snow?” a soft voice said. He turned to find Clydas standing beneath the broken archway, a parchment in his hand.

“From Stannis?” Jon had been hoping for some word from the king. The Night’s Watch took no part, he knew, and it should not matter to him which king emerged triumphant. Somehow it did. “Is it Deepwood?”

“No, my lord.” Clydas thrust the parchment forward. It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax. Only the Dreadfort uses pink sealing wax. Jon ripped off his gauntlet, took the letter, cracked the seal. When he saw

the signature, he forgot the battering Rattleshirt had given him.

Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton’s signature, Lord (?) Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended

their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber.

“Might we know what it says, my lord?” asked Iron Emmett.

Jon saw no reason not to tell him. “Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son’s wedding to …” His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father.

“Lord Snow?” Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. “Are you … unwell? You seem …”

“He’s to marry Arya Stark. My little sister.” <snip>

“Your sister,” Iron Emmett said, “how old is …”

By now she’d be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. “I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.” <snip> His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily.

Clydas cleared his throat. “Will there be an answer?”

Jon shook his head and walked away. <snip>

By nightfall the bruises that Rattleshirt had given him had turned purple. <snip>

He could hear the faint murmur of voices coming from outside, although the sound was too weak to make out words. They sound a thousand leagues away. It was Lady Melisandre and her followers at their nightfire. <snip>

With Stannis and most of the queen’s men gone, her flock was much diminished; half a hundred of the free folk up from Mole’s Town, the handful of guards the king had left her, perhaps a dozen black brothers who had taken her red god for their own. <snip>

His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart. He’d had Mikken make a sword for Arya <snip> he wondered if she still had it. Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her, but if she tried to stick the Bastard, it could mean her life.

“Snow,” muttered Lord Mormont’s raven. “Snow, snow.”

Suddenly he could not suffer it a moment longer. He found Ghost outside his door, gnawing on the bone of an ox to get at the marrow. “When did you get back?” The direwolf got to his feet, abandoning the bone to come padding after Jon.

Mully and Kegs stood inside the doors, leaning on their spears. <snip>“Will you be out long?”

“No. I just need a breath of air.” Jon stepped out into the night. <snip> He stalked across the yard, <snip> Ghost came after. Where am I going? What am I doing? Castle Black was still and silent, its halls and towers dark. My seat, Jon Snow reflected. My hall, my home, my command. A ruin.

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was

behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander’s Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory.

The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon’s heart leapt into his mouth.

“Ygritte,” he said.

“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s. Surprise made him recoil from her. “Lady Melisandre.” He took a step backwards. “I mistook you for someone else.”

At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from

pale hands naked to the night.

“You will freeze your fingers off,” Jon warned.

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in god’s holy fire.”

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

“The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you.”

“I have no sister.” The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

Melisandre seemed amused. “What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?”

“Arya.” His voice was hoarse. “My half-sister, truly …”

“… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. <snip>

t has not happened yet, but it will.” She gazed at Ghost. “May I touch your …wolf?” <snip>

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” <snip>

Ghost,” he called. “To me.” The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger. Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”

“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

I am not a wolf, he thought. “And how would I do that?”

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.” <snip>

Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. “Dalla told me something once. Val’s sister, Mance

Rayder’s wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

“A wise woman.” Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. “A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.

Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, <snip>, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood.” She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. “You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. <snip>

“Take my hand,” she said again, “and let me save your sister.”

Here the chapter ends. The next quote is from the Melisandre chapter after the three dead rangers have been found and Rattleshirt is revealed to be Mance.

“You have not asked about your sister,” Melisandre said, as they climbed the spiral steps of the King’s Tower.

“I told you. I have no sister. We put aside our kin when we say our words. I cannot help Arya, much as I—” <snip> (seeing Rattleshirt) “You.”

“Lord Snow.” <snip>

“What are you doing here?”

“I heard about your rangers. You should have sent me with them.”

“So you could betray them to the Weeper?”

“Are we talking about betrayals? What was the name of that wildling wife of yours, Snow? Ygritte, wasn’t it?” The wildling turned to Melisandre. “I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some

of the spearwives penned up at Mole’s Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl’s more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind.”

“What is he talking about?” Lord Snow asked her. “Your sister.” Melisandre put her hand on his arm. “You cannot help her, but he can.”

Snow wrenched his arm away. “I think not. <snip> If this was what you have seen in your fires, my lady, you must have ashes in your eyes. If he tries to leave Castle Black without my leave, I’ll take his head off myself.”

He leaves me no choice. So be it. “Devan, leave us,” she said, and the squire slipped away and closed the door behind him. Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word. <snip>

Jon Snow’s grey eyes grew wider. “Mance?” <snip>

“Our false king has a prickly manner,” Melisandre told Jon Snow, “but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life.”

“Me?” Snow sounded startled.

“Who else, my lord? Only his life’s blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. <snip>

“There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya’s deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light … and me.”

Again, there are two details that reappear in the pink letter, the arrival of which you can compare to the previous letter. Is it so far fetched to expect a similar scenario to unfold?

(Mully interrupts Jon and Tormund) Clydas had brought a letter.

“Tell him to leave it with you. I will read it later.”

“As you say, m’lord, only … Clydas don’t look his proper self … he’s more white than pink, if you get my meaning … and he’s shaking.” <snip>.

“Show Clydas in if you would be so good.” Mully had not been wrong; the old steward was trembling, his face as pale as the snows outside.

“I am being foolish, Lord Commander, but … this letter frightens me. See here?”

Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax.

“You were right to come at once,” Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you.

You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies.

The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek.

Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

It was signed,

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

Jon gives the letter to Tormund, but the parchment does not talk at him - he notices however that anyone could have written anything had he a quill and maester´s ink, would he mistake dried blood for maester´s ink?

Ramsay signs as trueborn Lord of Winterfell the tone is insulting and provocative, which makes it unlikely that it was intended simply to threaten Jon into meeting the demands.

The wording must be confusing to Jon it could be designed to increase the likelyhood that he is seeking council, at least I think that this is more plausible than that it was meant to provoke him into headlessly rushing to Winterfell, especially considering that Jon´s cautious nature is hardly a secret.

Since I´ve started this post with the "Heart -eating", here is what threat Ramsay utters when one of his bastard boys is fed his yellow dick.

The tale spread nonetheless. By midday most of Winterfell had heard, many from the lips of Ramsay Bolton, whose “boy” Yellow Dick had been.

“When we find the man who did this,” Lord Ramsay promised, “I will flay the skin off him, cook it crisp as crackling, and make him eat it, every bite.”

He skins as typical for a Bolton and he makes the threatend eat his body parts and not eat it himself. This is not unheard of south of the Wall, but to commit the crime of cannibalism doesn´t seem to be a threat anyone south of the Wall would make. (Discounting Cotter Pyke as he´s not lived south of the Wall for ages)

Also the threats to eat Jon´s liver were made by allies, so there´s not just the threat of killing Jon but also the fact that his allies would accept committing one of the most grievous sin in order to do so, which emphasizes the importance to them.

Let´s take a look at Theon´s escape and consider the possibilities of the contents of the letter being true as well as the circumstances in Winterfell that are relevant to how and by whom the letter could have been sent from there.

Little Walder´s death is announced in the great hall. It comes to a fight. Six White Harbour men, two Freys die, twelve are wounded as is Wyman Manderly. Ramsay quiets one of his dying boys by driving a spear through his chest, but there is still chaos.

Steelshanks Walton had to slam the butt of his spear against the floor a dozen times before the hall quieted enough for Roose Bolton to be heard.

“I see you all want blood,” the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm.

The bird’s black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship’s hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words.

“Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis.” Lord Bolton unrolled the parchment. “His host lies not three days’ ride from here, snowbound and starving, and I for one am tired of waiting on his pleasure. Ser Hosteen, assemble your knights and men-at-arms by the main gates. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. Lord Wyman, gather your White Harbor men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well.”

Hosteen Frey’s sword was red almost to the hilt. Blood spatters speckled his cheeks like freckles.

He lowered his blade and said, “As my lord commands. But after I deliver you the head of Stannis Baratheon, I mean to finish hacking off Lord Lard’s.”

Four White Harbor knights had formed a ring around Lord Wyman, as Maester Medrick labored over him to staunch his bleeding.

“First you must needs come through us, ser,” said the eldest of them, a hard-faced greybeard whose bloodstained surcoat showed three silvery mermaids upon a violet field.

“Gladly. One at a time or all at once, it makes no matter.”

“Enough,” roared Lord Ramsay, brandishing his bloody spear. “Another threat, and I’ll gut you all myself. My lord father has spoken! Save your wroth for the pretender Stannis.”

Roose Bolton gave an approving nod. “As he says. There will be time enough to fight each other once we are done with Stannis.” He turned his head, his pale cold eyes searching the hall until they found the bard Abel beside

Theon. “Singer,” he called, “come sing us something soothing.”

Abel bowed. “If it please your lordship.” Lute in hand, he sauntered to the dais, hopping nimbly over a corpse or two, and seated himself cross-legged on the high table. As he began to play—a sad, soft song that Theon Greyjoy did not

recognize—Ser Hosteen, Ser Aenys, and their fellow Freys turned away to lead their horses from the hall.

Rowan grasped Theon’s arm. “The bath. It must be now.”

He wrenched free of her touch. “By day? We will be seen.”

“The snow will hide us. Are you deaf? Bolton is sending forth his swords. We have to reach King Stannis before they do.”

“But … Abel …”

“Abel can fend for himself,”

If the contents of the letter are true it was sent ten or more(since Theon didn´t ride) days after this scene.

Mance / Abel is left to sing in the hall, while Theon and the spearwifes carry out the plan for "Arya´s" escape. He could have written the letter after he finished the song. Maester Medrick is busy tending Manderly, Rhodry probably stayed with Roose and we don´t know where Henly is. Those are the three Maesters in Winterfell we know of.

Three of them (Maesters. Lady Dustin had just spoken to Theon of Maesters in general.) had entered together by the lord’s door behind the dais—one tall, one plump, one very young, but in their robes and chains they were three grey peas

from a black pod.Before the war, Medrick had served Lord Hornwood, Rhodry Lord Cerwyn, and young Henly Lord Slate. Roose Bolton had brought them all to Winterfell to take charge of Luwin’s ravens, so messages might be sent and received from here again.

After the escape of "Arya" and the involvement of the spearwifes has been discovered and Holly is killed, Mance would have a hard time of moving openly in the castle, since at the very least his involvement would be suspected.

If the letter was sent in anger by Ramsay, as the wording sugests, it was before Stannis could have been found, but after he interrogated at least one of the spearwifes. So this poses plenty of problems as well.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

@Lykos: that was a great big piece of work and typing you did for us. Thank you!

[Lykos]

Jon Weirgaryen, thank you. But it wasn´t so much typing as copying and pasting, the editing and formatting was a real pain though.

[Caesar beyond the wall]

This thread has convinced me of Mance's involvement. Well done all who've spotted the links! Now, the only question is for what purpose?

[Lykos]

Ceasar, we´ll have to investigate the motives in order to tell why the letter was sent or by whom exactly.

Butterbumps! offered a simple and plausible explanation upthread.

Well, regardless of any Pink Letter theories, I think Mance's movements are easily explained. Without any sort of theory coming in to play, Mance was tasked with finding Arya, and once he had set out into the North, it would only take his hearing a rumor of the wedding at Winterfell to change gears. So without even speculating too much, I think assuming that Mance could easily find out about the change in plans is safe.

I think Mel's main directive was to find Jon's sister, and to that end, she thought this meant going to Long Lake. Meaning, I think Mance's primary objective was to retrieve Arya no matter what. So if he came upon information that said Arya was at Winterfell, he'd go to Winterfell. It may be too speculative an assumption, but I'd suspect that Mance and Mel arranged for some form of communication in the event that he couldn't secure Arya-- which is where the Pink Letter theory comes in. Because Mel's whole plan to get Jon to trust her falls apart if Mance is unsuccessful, so there needs to be a plan B, which is what I'm suggesting the letter might be in the event Mance wrote it.

Here's the thing though. I do think Mance has his own game in mind-- Rooseman quoted the passage about Mance's having a little "ploy" in mind, himself. I get the sense that Mance saw Mel's directive as an excuse that allowed him to pursue his own ends, and it happened to align well enough with what Mel wanted him to do-- more so once he found out Arya would be at Winterfell. And I hasten to add that I think this is the case regardless of whether Mance authored the letter-- I think he's looking to do something at Winterfell anyway. But I want to point out that if Mance also authored the letter, it wouldn't be part of whatever plan he has in mind for his own ends, but one set in place for Mel.

There's something that might be significant to point out wrt Mance, Manderly and the Umbers, though I don't know if that would take us off-track here. But I have suspicion that Mel isn't the only one using Mance as an operative. I'm leaning toward the possibility that Mel, a few Northmen and Mance himself have 3 different personal endgames in mind, all of which align in the sense that it puts Mance in Winterfell. I'm not really talking GNC here so much as I think we're seeing a conflagration of separate goals by different interests in terms of Mance's being at Winterfell. Whether Mance wrote the letter or not.

Also, since you and I discussed a lot of Bolton speculation in your thread and this letter came up, I still think "Ramsay wrote it" might be the default, and suspect if he's the author, that Roose sanctioned it.

I very muchlike the bolded part.

For people who like to read I´ll quote two of my old posts to give some insight into my thought process. I especially recommend to go to the Learning to lead (second post) as well as all the other rereads.

The letter troubles me big time. I´m sure it´s not written by Ramsay, since there is no mentioning of the large spiky handwriting in dried blood that comes off in brown flakes, and as Tormund looks at it and takes it for being written in maester´s ink, it´s definetly not blood. As butterbumps! noticed in another thread, the letter is sealed with a smear of pink wax. A hint that it might have been intercepted, opened and resealed? And why pink wax, when the writer dubs himself trueborn Lord of Winterfell?
Why make the letter sound as if it was written by Ramsay when all these clues, that even illiterates could decipher, say it wasn´t?
As to why mention Reek, if it was a message for Jon, it could be stressing that he needs to get hold of him, for he would know where "Arya" is. Mance couldn´t possibly completely trust him.

I like the idea that Wyman and Mance could work together at some level. I completely didn´t realise that it´s very likely that Mance would understand the underlying messages of Wyman´s requested songs. Thanks Harlaw´s Book.

(I´ve seen speculation that Davos has already succeeded in securing Rickon, but it was based on hints that I don´t believe.)

'Lykos', on 18 Aug 2012 - 5:26 PM, said:

I´m convinced that Mance wrote the letter ever since I posted this quote in the last thread. In the underlined part Rattle-Mance "tells" Jon that he is really Mance Rayder. The bolded terms are used in the "pink letter".

Quote

I believe that Mance is trying to tell Jon that he is at WinterfellAnd as Butterbumps mentioned we only ever hear wildlings calling the Night´s Watch men crows (of course we don´t hear people of the south talk about the Night´s Watch as their enemies.).

I have the feeling we should discuss this some other place, but our believe of how this cliffhanger will play out has a huge influence on how we judge Jon´s decisions and actions. I´ll have to catch up with you first though. If I don´t read back, I´m lost.

ETA: Another post.

[Bloodrobin]

Jon took another swallow of mead. There is only one tale that he might believe. “You say you were at Winterfell, the night my father feasted King Robert.”

“I did say it, for I was.”

“Then you saw us all. Prince Joffrey and Prince Tommen , Princess Myrcella, my brothers Robb and Bran and Rickon, my sisters Arya and Sansa. You saw them

walk the center aisle with every eye upon them and take their seats at the table just below the dais where the king and queen were seated.”

“I remember.”

“And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” He leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?”

Mance Rayder looked at Jon’s face for a long moment . “I think we had best find you a new cloak,” the king said, holding out his hand.

With the discussion of the pink letter's usage of the term "bastard" and the possibility of Mance Rayder being the author, might this quote from Jon's initial meeting with Mance be relevant? My apologies if this has already been mentioned many times.

[Jô Maltese]

With the discussion of the pink letter's usage of the term "bastard" and the possibility of Mance Rayder being the author, might this quote from Jon's initial meeting with Mance be relevant? My apologies if this has already been mentioned many times.

I think this quote is important in suggesting that Mance is also a bastard of a great family. Stark?

[Rooseman]

I think this quote is important in suggesting that Mance is also a bastard of a great family. Stark?

Perhaps Craster's son. There's this really weird passage in AFfC:

“Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though.”

Gilly thought about that. “Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong.”

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior’s name. The boy was Mance Rayder’s son and Craster’s grandson, after all. He had none of Sam’s craven blood.

One might think, that it's just a figure of speech or something. "Craster's grandson" in a way that Gilly raises him as if he were her own. But right after that there's a line about the blood...

Mance was born a wildling, but raised by the Night's Watch, right? How did that happen? Perhaps back in the day, a ranger picked him up after Craster offered him to the woods or something? The Old Bear says, that they'd gladly take his sons if he would let them:

Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I’d gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger.

Well, maybe they've done that one time? Unfortunateily, that boy later deserted and crowned himself King-beyond-the-Wall...

Just crackpotting around a little.

[Jasta11]

This does make an awful lot of sense.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Perhaps Craster's son. There's this really weird passage in AFfC:

One might think, that it's just a figure of speech or something. "Craster's grandson" in a way that Gilly raises him as if he were her own. But right after that there's a line about the blood...

Mance was born a wildling, but raised by the Night's Watch, right? How did that happen? Perhaps back in the day, a ranger picked him up after Craster offered him to the woods or something? The Old Bear says, that they'd gladly take his sons if he would let them:

Well, maybe they've done that one time? Unfortunateily, that boy later deserted and crowned himself King-beyond-the-Wall...

Just crackpotting around a little.

Hmmm... that does make a surprising amount of sense.

While you're cracking pots, think about this: I've always thought Mance's red and black cloak is significant, but he seems too young to be the son of Bloodraven, the only Targ I'm aware of at the Wall, and besides Craster is the one whose father we know to have been a crow. Craster is also most likely exactly the right age to have been born shortly after BR's arrival c.233.

You don't suppose??? :blink:

[Jô Maltese]

Perhaps Craster's son. There's this really weird passage in AFfC:

One might think, that it's just a figure of speech or something. "Craster's grandson" in a way that Gilly raises him as if he were her own. But right after that there's a line about the blood...

Mance was born a wildling, but raised by the Night's Watch, right? How did that happen? Perhaps back in the day, a ranger picked him up after Craster offered him to the woods or something? The Old Bear says, that they'd gladly take his sons if he would let them:

Well, maybe they've done that one time? Unfortunateily, that boy later deserted and crowned himself King-beyond-the-Wall...

Just crackpotting around a little.

Your analysis makes plenty of sense, granted, and other members of this Forum came up with this very idea in the past. But I find one thing incoherent with his supposed Wildling origin: his ability with a great 2-handed sword, as shown when he fights Jon as Rattleshirt in CB. I can't really see a wildling making a great sword his weapon of choice, or the Master at Arms training the NW men in fighting with such a 'knighty' weapon. And Ice comes to mind...

[The guy from the Vale]

Hmmm... that does make a surprising amount of sense.

While you're cracking pots, think about this: I've always thought Mance's red and black cloak is significant, but he seems too young to be the son of Bloodraven, the only Targ I'm aware of at the Wall, and besides Craster is the one whose father we know to have been a crow. Craster is also most likely exactly the right age to have been born shortly after BR's arrival c.233.

You don't suppose??? :blink:

Craster trying to mimick his father's family customs by marrying his own daughters? Now that's gross... and somehow compelling.

[Rooseman]

But I find one thing incoherent with his supposed Wildling origin: his ability with a great 2-handed sword, as shown when he fights Jon as Rattleshirt in CB. I can't really see a wildling making a great sword his weapon of choice, or the Master at Arms training the NW men in fighting with such a 'knighty' weapon. And Ice comes to mind...

Mh, I don't know. Yes, the Stark's family sword happened to be a greatsword, but so did other family swords. It's not as if the Starks are associated with being good with greatswords. I don't think that Ned Stark was ever said to be especially skilled with it.

Maybe he just took a liking to fighting with a two-hander while serving the Night's Watch. Is it really knightlier than your usual longsword? The mountain clans fight with greatswords, and I think they're closer to the wildlings than to southron knights.

[Jô Maltese]

(...) The mountain clans fight with great swords, and I think they're closer to the wildlings than to southron knights.

I never registered this, you have a point here.

Hmmm... that does make a surprising amount of sense.

While you're cracking pots, think about this: I've always thought Mance's red and black cloak is significant, but he seems too young to be the son of Bloodraven, the only Targ I'm aware of at the Wall, and besides Craster is the one whose father we know to have been a crow. Craster is also most likely exactly the right age to have been born shortly after BR's arrival c.233.

You don't suppose??? :blink:

Linking your idea with my 2-handed sword's hint, Blackfyre comes to mind...

ETA: spelling

[Facebookless Man]

I don't know if this has been said before, and the conversation has probably moved a long way from the OP's point by now but...

1) Mance Rayder is not a wildling.

2) the one time he uses the expression "Black crow" is in a similar context as the one time Jon uses it: he is repeating the wildling's words, not using his own.

Mance is an educated man and familiar with northern nobility. I very much doubt he'd use that expression while conscientiously trying to pass himself off as Ramsay Bolton.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think the two handed sword was just to show that "Rattleshirt" was really Mance (there is quite a difference in stature between the two) Although Mance's stature and skill with a blade could be suggestive of something.

At any rate, Bloodraven brought Dark Sister to the wall, which was a longsword. Blackfyre is a hand and half sword, lost in Essos.

Craster trying to mimick his father's family customs by marrying his own daughters? Now that's gross... and somehow compelling.

Hadn't even thought of that! Yep, gross. But seen as a the perversion of an angry bastard, perhaps telling. :ack:

[Rooseman]

I don't know if this has been said before, and the conversation has probably moved a long way from the OP's point by now but...

1) Mance Rayder is not a wildling.

Yes he is. Granted that he has spent most of his life with the Night's Watch, but he was born a wildling and he has spent the past years with them.

2) the one time he uses the expression "Black crow" is in a similar context as the one time Jon uses it: he is repeating the wildling's words, not using his own.

I really don't see how you came to that conclusion. Jon uses it when talking to the wildlings and speaking from their perspective. Someone in this thread said, that you could almost see him doing the finger-quotations and I think that's a very nice way to put it. For Mance, it's a totally normal thing to say. "The black crow is a tricksy bird" he said, how is that similar?

Mance is an educated man and familiar with northern nobility. I very much doubt he'd use that expression while conscientiously trying to pass himself off as Ramsay Bolton.

So you agree that it's more of a wildling thing to say? Then how is it more likely, that Ramsay used it?

[~No One~]

Seems everyone is looking for a motive for Mance. A couple of posters have wondered, myself included.

Does Mance know his baby was sent away (sorry, too long since last reread)? Could he want revenge on Jon for that? He has no idea about Jon letting his people through the Wall...maybe he thinks by luring Jon south to WF he will give his people a chance to get through and safe?