A black crow and a pink letter

[Jô Maltese]

OP, your 'discovery' about typical wildling wording and phrasing in the Pink letter has been discussed many times before and many (including me ) have drawn the same conclusion as you, that Mance is the author. For those still thinking that Ramsay wrote it, here is a bit of food for thought: in the two previous letters from Ramsay encountered in aDwD , GRRM insists in describing his handwriting (huge and spiking), but not for the one received by Jon. Also, in the letter Asha receives, there is a bit of skin to 'illustrate' the flaying of the Iron men... I find it telling that there is no such proof of the skinning of Mance's spearwives in Jon's letter...

[yolkboy]

OP, your 'discovery' about typical wildling wording and phrasing in the Pink letter has been discussed many times before

What OP has presented has never been so before to my knowledge, so yes it is a discovery.

[Jô Maltese]

What OP has presented has never been so before to my knowledge, so yes it is a discovery.

Check this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101613-pink-letter-was-written-and-sent-by-mance/

And in particular ;) :

It's not only the term 'bastard' but also the wordings of the letter like 'for all the North to see', 'black crows' or 'cut out your heat and eat it' which very much sound like Mance speaking and not Ramsay. To be honest, I am not sure wether the letter was written by Ramsay or Mance, but I am convinced it's one of the 2, as only Mance could have the full knowledge of everything written in it, and therefore Ramsay after torturing Mance. It can't be Stannis (he does not even know Mance is alive), moreover it just does not fit with Stannis personality to come up with such a treacherous plan. And with regard to Mel's authorship hypothesis, she would never reveal that Mance is alive, that would jeopardise Stannis' and his men's trust in her.

Last, personality-like, I also find it un-fitting for Mance to fully crack under Ramsay's torture and especially to admit who he really was (other than Abel or Rattleshirt) or say anything about his son - why would Ramsay question him on these matters to start with?

And I am sure I had read the same ideas before (i.e. it was not 'my' discovery either), on an Apple Martini thread maybe.

[Dragon Roast]

The OP has made a good case for Mance. Perhaps it will turn out to be true, but as I have followed the discussion there are some other possibilities that could still be true..

I sorta doubt that either Stannis or Ramsey would use the term "black crows", but of the two at least Stannis would be familiar with the term (I don't see where Ramsey would have ever heard it used). Stannis could have wrote the letter and used the term, but then it would need a specific reason behind the usage. A case could me made that Stannis wrote the letter and and used the term as a clue that Ramsey did not write the letter. Like the case for Mance, Stannis as the author has some holes in it.

Of all the suspects, I think the least likely author is Ramsey..There are other suspects as well like Asha and some group of Nights Watch conspirators. Either of these seem more likely than Ramsey.

Then there is the theory that the letter was read, re-written and re-sent by a number of different authors each adding and subtracting something to the contents. That seems to be a plausible theory as well.

[yolkboy]

Check this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101613-pink-letter-was-written-and-sent-by-mance/

And in particular ;) :

And I am sure I had read the same ideas before (i.e. it was not 'my' discovery either), on an Apple Martini thread maybe.

I don't doubt it's an old idea (that the pl 'sounds' wildling-esque), but OP has discovered that black crows is only said by wildlings in the text. For me it's a significant step up from saying it sounds like Mance.

[Ahura Mazda]

Have a look at this.

Here is every single instance, when someone used the term "black crow" in all the books, including the person who said it. Try noticing a pattern. (Solution below in the spoiler)

...

- Ramsay Bolton (?)

(Click the spoiler for the pattern)

"Black crow" is a term used exclusively by wildlings. With the exception of Jon Snow (who can be given a pass for obvious reasons, I think) nobody south of the Wall ever refers to Night's Watch people as "black crows." Until we read the pink letter, supposedly written by Ramsay Bolton.

For other hints, let me quote myself from an older topic.

And this is another great piece of evidence, I dunno but this theory should deserve the same place R+L=J has.

Someone should merge this with the one analysing the letter as a poetry and the other collecting Mance's sentences north the wall that reappear in the letter.

.... If I mention an idea then it may come of as too much speculation. Hothor Umber was supposedly sent to become a Maester but never became one. Why he did not continue with the practice we don't know but it may be possible he learned a thing or two on how to handle Ravens. Its an idea that was proposed by the GNC, where its speculated that there is a bigger conspiracy afoot from those that want to cast down the Boltons and that Mance may have found himself as an agent of theirs (he was in the right position).

Also Jon had to read the letter to him, its possible he didn't read word for word and gave him a summary.

Do you happen to have any link?

[Castellan]

mmm haven't tried to keep up with pink letter theories. So if its Mance, what's he trying to do?

[Jô Maltese]

Do you happen to have any link?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77828-the-great-northern-conspiracy-reexamined/

[Thucydides]

I've never quite subscribed to the ____ other than Ramsay is the author of the pink letter theories. I just don't think all of the facts in the letter are correct, but I think Ramsay is the author.

As for the use of "wildling phrases," I think this could be explained with the fact that it probably isn't a secret that the wildlings refer to the Night's Watch as black crows. Plenty of them are captured south of the wall - see Osha - and might say it in front of the captors who would be northerners. It could easily be known they say that. What if Ramsay really did capture the spearwives, and when he was torturing them they said something about the "black crows" on the Wall and Ramsay liked the insult. It's not a stretch to think he would have heard/know the phrase before and since most of the letter uses languages aimed at insulting Jon, he used it.

I agree with this. Ramsey is simply choosing insulting language. The northerners south of the wall tend to address the Night's Watch respectfully. The wildlings tend to refer to them disrespectfully. All this shows is that the letter uses disrespectful language to refer to the Night's Watchmen.

[Rooseman]

What OP has presented has never been so before to my knowledge, so yes it is a discovery.

Oh, I wasn't the first one to point this out.

Last year, another user (sorry, I didn't remember his name) actually went throught the books and confirmed that "black crow" is never used by southerners.

The only thing I did differently was actually posting the quotes themselves. It's just much more convincing that way, if you see it before your own eyes.

Also, the reason why I made this thread is, that I find the "black crow" thing super convincing, but the argument is not as widely known as it should be. I usually post it in every pink letter thread (:)), but one page later the next guy says "well there's no evidence that it was Mance, it's just wishful thinking"

[Mourneblade]

I can easily pin the Pink Letter on Roose Bolton, So someone explain WHY Mance would write this with his uneducated, amazing penmanship.

Where is the motive?

[Thucydides]

You know, Rooseman, I wouldn't worry about whether you were the first to point that out. Half the reason I don't post more often here is out of apprehension that the post will get spamed with comments saying "that's been discussed here before." (Not that I mind people providing links to previous posts; that's often quite helpful.)

There are enough 15+ page threads about every topic to keep me reading well until after WoW actually comes out, so I say if it's interesting, then it bears discussion. Previous discussions can be used to inform the current one, but they need not displace new posts.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

-wrong argument-

[Thucydides]

Is it clear that the author of the letter knows that the sword is fake? Or is he simply using flippant language to refer to Stannis's sword?

[Mourneblade]

He says Magic Sword not Fake Sword.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

-wrong argument-

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

He says Magic Sword not Fake Sword.

True.

I thought he said fake since he was on a tirade to say things were fake.

Thanks for clearing it up.

[Mourneblade]

It cannot be Ramsey, the penmanship is far above what Ramsey is capable of. That and Ramsey has never uttered the word "Bastard"

[Mourneblade]

yeah it was False this and false that lol I even had to go back and read it cause I was like... I think he said false sword lol

[VicsFieryHand]

What would there be to gain from sending this letter? By Mance i mean. Maybe if Stannis sent it, it would be to prove Jon's allegiance? However, I spose if The Mance was in on a lil' conspiracy, more than likely got from some nice pillow talk from the "chosen girls" he would want the NW to come storming in and WF could be taken from in, and out by 2 sides? Sounds like a fairly bad-ass plan to me, with a high probability of success.