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Why marry Oberyn


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#1 TheStarkInWinterhell

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:21 PM

Why did House Martell think Tywin Lannister would even entertain the idea of a marriage between Oberyn and Cersei? Why would he marry his prize daughter to a second son.

 

Jaime and Elia could have worked.


Edited by TheStarkInWinterhell, 19 January 2014 - 02:22 PM.


#2 Lord Thornhart

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:22 PM

Princess > Lady



#3 winters-coming

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:25 PM

For 50,000 spears.

 

His grandson sat the iron throne, so if he could get the support of dorne by marrying her off to a second son to keep him there, it would've been a small price to pay



#4 TheStarkInWinterhell

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:29 PM

Sorry I mean before Roberts Rebellion.



#5 Winnief

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:29 PM

 

 

Why did House Martell think Tywin Lannister would even entertain the idea of a marriage between Oberyn and Cersei? Why would he marry his prize daughter to a second son.

 

Well anyone other than Tywin would have considered the Dornish match a pretty good one-even for Cersei.  She could after all call herself Princess.  And there was probably a shortage of age appropriate men from Great Houses without other Betrothals on hand...Remember Brandon Stark was promised to a Tully, (and I don't see Tywin sending his daughter to the North anyway,) Robert Baratheon was engaged to Lyanna, Jon Arryn was old enough to be Cersei's grandpa, and Mace Tyrrell was presumably already married as well.  

 

And Elia/Jaime would certainly have worked.  



#6 CosimaistheHottest

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:42 PM

Why did House Martell think Tywin Lannister would even entertain the idea of a marriage between Oberyn and Cersei? Why would he marry his prize daughter to a second son.

 

Jaime and Elia could have worked.

 

No clue. It was a terrible deal for Oberyn in my own opinion too especially since he is from Dorne. They could find a Dornish House with a future ruling Lady for him to marry and his own children could be heirs of that House.

 

I don't know how much I actually buy that Oberyn and Cersei was a stated match between the Princess of Dorne and Joanna. How many siblings marry siblings especially when people use marriages to build alliances. Joanna would have surely known that Tywin wanted Cersei to be Queen. Now whether she wanted it is a whole nother story but I can't see Tywin deviating from the Cersei to Rhaegar plan at all even at Joanna's beckoning. Tywin could have potentially made concessions for the Jaime and Elia one. It's one of those things where if Elia dies Jaime will be free to marry someone else and he's a guy so he can get married again whenever he wants and the Dornish and Lannisters could potentially still be friends just not marriage bonded anymore or Elia gives birth to Jaime's heirs and Tywin gets his grandchildren in line for the Dornish throne after Doran's own children.

 

 

 

Well anyone other than Tywin would have considered the Dornish match a pretty good one-even for Cersei.  She could after all call herself Princess.  And there was probably a shortage of age appropriate men from Great Houses without other Betrothals on hand...Remember Brandon Stark was promised to a Tully, (and I don't see Tywin sending his daughter to the North anyway,) Robert Baratheon was engaged to Lyanna, Jon Arryn was old enough to be Cersei's grandpa, and Mace Tyrrell was presumably already married as well.  

 

The Dornish matches were proposed really early. I mean Cersei and Jaime were like 7/8 at the time. So it's possible that the bethrothal between Brandon and Catelyn hadn't happened. We know the bethrothal between Robert and Lyanna hadn't happened because Robert's parents were still alive at this time and Robert as Lord of Storm's End proposed to match. So all of these betrothals may have been years after the Tywin's refusal. Also don't forget Elbert Arryn. Jon was old as f*. Who knows when he decided to say screw it and just have Elbert be his heir with the intention of never marrying again.


Edited by CosimaistheHottest, 19 January 2014 - 02:45 PM.


#7 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:45 PM

Wasnt there something in the text suggesting only Oberyn OR Elia would marry Cersei OR Jamie? Could be wrong, but even if it wasnt stated in the text its a possibility

#8 CosimaistheHottest

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:48 PM

Wasnt there something in the text suggesting only Oberyn OR Elia would marry Cersei OR Jamie? Could be wrong, but even if it wasnt stated in the text its a possibility

 

No. Both matches were proposed. Tywin says no to the Cersei match with something like, "She's meant for Rhaegar." The Princess says okay. What about Jaime and Elia? Tywin counters that with giving Elia to Tyrion as an insult.


Edited by CosimaistheHottest, 19 January 2014 - 02:49 PM.


#9 Mr Bell

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:53 PM

The match didn't really make since. Oberyn was not only a second son, he was third in line, and that's before Doran and Elia had children. It was a really bad match, and I'm not surprised Tywin quickly thew out the idea.

 

Jaime/Elia was in turn a good match. Jaime was the heir to the richest region in Westeros, and if anything was to happen to Doran, Elia would be ruling Princess of Dorne. That was a powerful match.



#10 PancakeMountainThatRides

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:59 PM

Didn't Oberyn already have a bastard at this point, too (Obara)? I love Oberyn to death (I guess I'd have to at this point :( ), but if I was Tywin, I probably wouldn't be all impressed that maester school dropout and bastard baby daddy was the best they could offer. And on eligible bachelors, Baelor Hightower sounds like he would've been a catch for Cersei if Tywin wasn't so dead set on Rhae Rhae.

#11 CosimaistheHottest

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:04 PM

Didn't Oberyn already have a bastard at this point, too (Obara)? I love Oberyn to death (I guess I'd have to at this point :( ), but if I was Tywin, I probably wouldn't be all impressed that maester school dropout and bastard baby daddy was the best they could offer. And on eligible bachelors, Baelor Hightower sounds like he would've been a catch for Cersei if Tywin wasn't so dead set on Rhae Rhae.

 

No clue. He had to have started really early if by his own recollection he was 14 or 15 years old on his visit to CR. Some timelines say that alone was 2 years before the visit so 12 or 13. 

 

I also thought Oberyn was probably older when he decided to become a maester that happened after the proposals.

 

Agree on Baelor. He would have been a good match for many a lady.


Edited by CosimaistheHottest, 19 January 2014 - 03:05 PM.


#12 Victor227

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:08 PM

Ironically, it might have been Joanna's plan to begin with to aid in hooking up Cersei and Rhaegar by making the Jaime/Ellia match. It eliminates another option for the Targaryens in making a match for Rhaegar, and one closer to their own bloodline at that. I still have to wonder why Tywin never entertained the match. Either his grief for Joanna and Tyrion's birth clouded his mind on the issue, and he simply wanted to be rid of the Dornish as soon as possible, or perhaps Ellia's frail condition made her a poor match. Lysa would have been the better choice - at least until she raped Littlefinger and was forced into a likely highly damaging abortion that left her sanity and physical condition in doubt.



#13 CosimaistheHottest

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:13 PM

Ironically, it might have been Joanna's plan to begin with to aid in hooking up Cersei and Rhaegar by making the Jaime/Ellia match. It eliminates another option for the Targaryens in making a match for Rhaegar, and one closer to their own bloodline at that. I still have to wonder why Tywin never entertained the match. Either his grief for Joanna and Tyrion's birth clouded his mind on the issue, and he simply wanted to be rid of the Dornish as soon as possible, or perhaps Ellia's frail condition made her a poor match. Lysa would have been the better choice - at least until she raped Littlefinger and was forced into a likely highly damaging abortion that left her sanity and physical condition in doubt.

 

My thoughts were Elia had poor health and older that is why the match wasn't good to Tywin, but he never says that. He just hopes she dies years later this is after the proposals. Her poor health alone would be a good reason to say no to the match instead of insulting them. But seeing how Joanna just died, childbirth isn't safe at times for even the healthiest of women. 



#14 Victor227

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:21 PM

It's likely that, considering the lack of highborn ladies by the time of Harrenhall, Jaime was probably intended for the daughter of one of his bannermen. He was squired with the Crakehalls, and he's close friends with a Marbrand. He's expected to rule in the Westerlands and further the Lannister dynasty there, it only makes sense that for a domestic ruler, he marry domestically as well. Cersei was intended for a crown, which would pretty much cover political alliances for that generation to boot. The Crown didn't seem to intervene when the Reynes and Tarbecks rebelled. Seems they have a bit of a hands-off policy in individual regions, so a domestic marriage for Jaime to shore up Casterly Rock seems like a prudent move.

 

The Baratheon/Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance was an incredible feat of marriage and maneuvering, but it did expose domestic weaknesses. All of those houses wound up lacking significant inroads with their bannermen, which may have contributed to their downfalls.


Edited by Victor227, 19 January 2014 - 03:24 PM.


#15 Ser Lady Stark Martell

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:24 PM

Because who wouldn't want to marry Oberyn?????

 

No, ok, seriously: I do think it was a pretty stupid idea. No way in hell Tywin would accept it. I agree with the Jaime/Elia match being a good one, though. Plus, look how much death and war it would prevent from happening. Ohh, if only...



#16 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:34 PM

 
No clue. He had to have started really early if by his own recollection he was 14 or 15 years old on his visit to CR. Some timelines say that alone was 2 years before the visit so 12 or 13. 
 
I also thought Oberyn was probably older when he decided to become a maester that happened after the proposals.
 
Agree on Baelor. He would have been a good match for many a lady.

Oberyn's maester training happened after his duel with Lord Yronwood which resulted in Quentyn being fostered out. I think that was after Elia's death

#17 PancakeMountainThatRides

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

No clue. He had to have started really early if by his own recollection he was 14 or 15 years old on his visit to CR. Some timelines say that alone was 2 years before the visit so 12 or 13. 
 
I also thought Oberyn was probably older when he decided to become a maester that happened after the proposals.
 
Agree on Baelor. He would have been a good match for many a lady.

Yeah, I've never been able to figure on the maester thing. Maester Aemon was already training by the time Dunk & Egg starts, and he was just a kid. But Sam was considerably older, so it's hard to pinpoint when exactly Oberyn would have gone, since it's probably the difference of them planning on him being a maester and "ok, no one wants to marry you, so we're sending you to the Citadel."

But even if he hadnt gone yet and Obara wasn't born... Let's face it, he probably wasn't the paragon of chastity and virtue beforehand. :P

Because who wouldn't want to marry Oberyn?????
 
No, ok, seriously: I do think it was a pretty stupid idea. No way in hell Tywin would accept it. I agree with the Jaime/Elia match being a good one, though. Plus, look how much death and war it would prevent from happening. Ohh, if only...

That was pretty much my first thought reading the title. :love:

#18 PancakeMountainThatRides

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:41 PM

Oberyn's maester training happened after his duel with Lord Yronwood which resulted in Quentyn being fostered out. I think that was after Elia's death


He was 16 when he dueled Lord Yronwood. Quentyn wasn't sent to be fostered until he was like 8, if I recall. It confuses me, because I've seen Obara's birth set when Oberyn was like 14 or 15, which would mean he was in Oldtown by then.... But then, I suppose he could've just gotten a whore pregnant while Elia was hanging out with Baelor. Sounds like something he'd do.

#19 CosimaistheHottest

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 04:46 PM

Yeah, I've never been able to figure on the maester thing. Maester Aemon was already training by the time Dunk & Egg starts, and he was just a kid. But Sam was considerably older, so it's hard to pinpoint when exactly Oberyn would have gone, since it's probably the difference of them planning on him being a maester and "ok, no one wants to marry you, so we're sending you to the Citadel."
 

 

I don't think Oberyn actually planned on being a Maester. He probably thought it was fun for a little while. Get some training and make some people uncomfortable.

 

 

He was 16 when he dueled Lord Yronwood. Quentyn wasn't sent to be fostered until he was like 8, if I recall. It confuses me, because I've seen Obara's birth set when Oberyn was like 14 or 15, which would mean he was in Oldtown by then.... But then, I suppose he could've just gotten a whore pregnant while Elia was hanging out with Baelor. Sounds like something he'd do.

 

Very weird. I was looking at a wiki timeline. I know they aren't exact dates but we get an idea of when things happened. It says Obara was born 2 years before Oberyn and Elia's trip to CR. WTF. That would make Oberyn 12 or 13. I won't say it can't happen but that is really young. 

 

If this is the case, Obara would have had to have been born before their trip to Oldtown so Elia couldn't have been hanging out with Baelor since it was the same year as the twins proposal. It is possible that the wiki timeline or age of a character is wrong and Obara was conceived during their visit to Oldtown.

 

Oberyn's next oldest daughter is Nymeria who is 25 and born a year after the Casterly Rock trip.



#20 PancakeMountainThatRides

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:04 PM

Very weird. I was looking at a wiki timeline. I know they aren't exact dates but we get an idea of when things happened. It says Obara was born 2 years before Oberyn and Elia's trip to CR. WTF. That would make Oberyn 12 or 13. I won't say it can't happen but that is really young. 
 
If this is the case, Obara would have had to have been born before their trip to Oldtown so Elia couldn't have been hanging out with Baelor since it was the same year as the twins proposal. It is possible that the wiki timeline or age of a character is wrong and Obara was conceived during their visit to Oldtown.
 
Oberyn's next oldest daughter is Nymeria who is 25 and born a year after the Casterly Rock trip.


You know, I think it was probably this that made me think he was at the Citadel before the CR trip, since I thought, fathered Obara on a whore in Oldtown before CR and Yronwood duel -> maester training. Although I don't think the book actually says how old Obara is (I think it just says she's "nearly 30" or something), so the wiki could be just approximating, unless they got their info somewhere other than the books (or I'm just forgetting the books saying her exact age). She'd still be nearly 30 if she was conceived when he and Elia were in Oldtown. I wouldn't think after that though, since like you said, Nymeria was born a year after CR and if they were only a year or so apart, they probably would say they were of an age or something, rather than making it sound like a bigger age difference. /endramble