What next? Enough with grimdark!

[Errant Bard]

Just noticed that the OP never specified he wanted Fantasy recs, just no grimdark... What about trying some SF like the Hitchhiker's Guide, the Gone Away World, Snow Crash (or anything from Neal Stephenson), Quantum Thief (though in my opinion you're best served reading Arsène Lupin right away...), Vorkosigan saga, Zelazny or indeed, Richard Morgan (whose Kovaks stories might be dark but always have a kind of fast paced, upbeat feel)? A lot of the speculative fiction outside of modern Fantasy is not really grim nor dark. Just, maybe, stay away from the likes of Donaldson the same way you would from a KJ Parker. Heck, why not try a Murakami like Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World? Or some classic, you know, despite the subject, the last pages of To Kill a Mockingbird or The Stranger (basic required read those, anyway) feel great, yes?

[Free Northman Reborn]

As Errant Bard said (yes, we're in agreement on something), ASOIAF only feels particularly depressing because the "Down and Out" phase of the heroes' arc has unfortunately stretched over more than 10 years of real life.

If future people read the entire series over the course of a year, the period of Lannister/Frey/Bolton ascendancy will flash by relatively quickly.

But yes, it does suck being stuck in this endless limbo of suffering that is books 3-5 of the series.

[Happy Ent]

I guess we have to admit that the board’s Literature section very much has a penchant for grimdark, to the point of us being genuinely surprised that somebody labels GRRM as grimdark.

There are good suggestions upthread. Lest you’re fooled by any of the tongue-in-cheek responses:

The following books are brutal and have a tragic view of human nature:

Very grimdark: R. Scott Bakker’s Second Apocalypse, Richard Morgan’s A Land Fit for Heroes, Cormac McCarthy’s The Road, Brian Ruckley A Godless World, China Miéville’s Bas-Lag books, Hal Duncan’s Ink, Matthew Stover’s Caine books.

Bleak: Tolkien’s Silmarillion.

Grimdark but funny: Anything by Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch’s Gentleman Bastards.

Note that all of these books are pretty good, some of them are routinely mentioned as “best book ever” on this forum.

Serious suggestion (mentioned several times already): Daniel Abraham.

[Talleyrand]

I wouldn't call ASOIAF grimdark. I've always thought of grimdark as needlessly and overtly smacking you over the head with it to the stage where you can basically hear the author say "ooh, look how brooding and dark my characters are!"

[Jussi]

You could try David Anthony Durham's Acacia Trilogy. The ending is not grimdark.

[Veltigar]

Also, about asoiaf, you say:

I suggest you look at ASOIAF in a new way, that is, understand that Martin does not go against Fantasy tropes: teen heroes traditionally always have their parent die tragically, and a bit of their family, enough to lose power to some scheming traitor and go into hiding, hidden heir and stuff you know, then they go on a journey fraught with peril, learn they are special, have magical power and what not, often enough stop to train at the warrior/assassin/gladiator school of badassery, then come back to beat the dark lord, sorting out the human traitors on the way. That's exactly what is happening, ASOIAF is the most traditional story ever.

:cheers: :bowdown:

[Green Gogol]

As Errant Bard said (yes, we're in agreement on something), ASOIAF only feels particularly depressing because the "Down and Out" phase of the heroes' arc has unfortunately stretched over more than 10 years of real life.

If future people read the entire series over the course of a year, the period of Lannister/Frey/Bolton ascendancy will flash by relatively quickly.

But yes, it does suck being stuck in this endless limbo of suffering that is books 3-5 of the series.

I respectfully disagree.

I've begun to read ASOIAF this september, so I've not stretched it over 10 years of my life. Only a few months. And there nothing much amusing that happens in book 1 and 2 either.

[Datepalm]

I guess we have to admit that the board’s Literature section very much has a penchant for grimdark, to the point of us being genuinely surprised that somebody labels GRRM as grimdark.

There are good suggestions upthread. Lest you’re fooled by any of the tongue-in-cheek responses:

The following books are brutal and have a tragic view of human nature:

Very grimdark: R. Scott Bakker’s Second Apocalypse, Richard Morgan’s A Land Fit for Heroes, Cormac McCarthy’s The Road, Brian Ruckley A Godless World, China Miéville’s Bas-Lag books, Hal Duncan’s Ink, Matthew Stover’s Caine books.

Really, Mieville? Never really thought of him as particularly dark.

I agree that it seems a bit jarring, perhaps because of the perspective of this forum, to think of ASOIAF as "grimdark." It's just got such a Romantic vibe to it, despite everythng. :dunno:

[Happy Ent]

Really, Mieville? Never really thought of him as particularly dark.

Remade? The Garuda punishment? (And remember for what.) On-stage rape of the bug-head lady? Oppression, futility, … Even the sentient plants have spikes.

Nah, Miéville is grimdark.

[Happy Ent]

I've begun to read ASOIAF this september, so I've not stretched it over 10 years of my life.

(Yorkshire accent:) Ten years? We would have dreamed of stretching it over 10 years. ’twould have felt like binge reading to us. When I was young, GRRM would spend a decade just writing the first word. A definite article. And then he’d cross it out again.

And to read it, we had to stand in line outside of tiny shop for novelty sex toys in Ulan Bator in a hailstorm for 3 weeks, while Robert Stanek read his draft of a Goodkind crossover poetry to us. In Hebrew.

Don’t talk to me about waiting.

[sologdin]

I'd like to read something a little lighter next.

go read all of the hugo & nebula winners.

[Errant Bard]

I agree that it seems a bit jarring, perhaps because of the perspective of this forum, to think of ASOIAF as "grimdark." It's just got such a Romantic vibe to it, despite everythng. :dunno:

Romantism is quite dark and full of doom and despair though, so it would fit (duh) what the OP meant by grimdark; when he described Martin getting his hopes up and then crushing them, that's exactly the doom/futility of romantism, isn't it?

[Datepalm]

Romantism is quite dark and full of doom and despair though, so it would fit (duh) what the OP meant by grimdark; when he described Martin getting his hopes up and then crushing them, that's exactly the doom/futility of romantism, isn't it?

I guess it's just that ASOIAF isn't very cynical, and I think of cynicism as being the major defining trait of Abercrombie or Lynch, say. Maybe that's why I don't lump Mieville there either. It's all about tone for me, not a checklist of x amount of rape or y amount of beheadings. Take something like Firethorn, or Mary Gentle's books - as tediously gritty, grimy and close-to-real medieval as you're likely to find anywhere, in terms of cruelty, powerlessness, gore, details of bodily functions, etc, etc, and yet it wouldn't occur to me to think of them as "grimdark."

[The Marquis de Leech]

I've always thought of grimdark as consciously emphasising unpleasant attributes of a given setting, rather than simple cynicism; ASOIAF does that to some degree, even making it a thematic point when certain characters (Bran and Sansa) have their illusions shattered. Arya's story similarly fits the mold too.

[Green Gogol]

I guess it's just that ASOIAF isn't very cynical, and I think of cynicism as being the major defining trait of Abercrombie or Lynch, say. Maybe that's why I don't lump Mieville there either. It's all about tone for me, not a checklist of x amount of rape or y amount of beheadings. Take something like Firethorn, or Mary Gentle's books - as tediously gritty, grimy and close-to-real medieval as you're likely to find anywhere, in terms of cruelty, powerlessness, gore, details of bodily functions, etc, etc, and yet it wouldn't occur to me to think of them as "grimdark."

I kind of agree with you. I think what is special with ASOIAF is that everything from the tone, to the vocabulary, the events, the character, the pace, contribute to this feeling of filth and despair.

In the Blade Itself, the tone is pretty cheerful. I laughed out loud in the prologue.

And by the way, it's not that I don't like ASOIAF, But after so much bacon, I need to eat a salad.

And Errant Bard, Douglas Adams is one of my favorite. Last chance to see was hilarious if you haven't read it.

[Green Gogol]

I've always thought of grimdark as consciously emphasising unpleasant attributes of a given setting, rather than simple cynicism; ASOIAF does that to some degree, even making it a thematic point when certain characters (Bran and Sansa) have their illusions shattered. Arya's story similarly fits the mold too.

Yes also. I see grimdark as the following:

A little girl is captured, tortured and raped by a band of outlaws, a knight in shining armor come rescue her, then beat her, rape her, and try to ransom her. He rescued her for his own selfish motives and not out of compassion or something.

[Mark Lawrence]

I'm with you, enough of this grimdark misery-fest.

Prince of Thorns is pretty upbeat.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I kind of agree with you. I think what is special with ASOIAF is that everything from the tone, to the vocabulary, the events, the character, the pace, contribute to this feeling of filth and despair.

In the Blade Itself, the tone is pretty cheerful. I laughed out loud in the prologue.

And by the way, it's not that I don't like ASOIAF, But after so much bacon, I need to eat a salad.

And Errant Bard, Douglas Adams is one of my favorite. Last chance to see was hilarious if you haven't read it.

No, I see grimdark as having a sense of futility and even nihilism permeating it. Making life seem meaningless and full of suffering.

In that respect Abercrombie is far worse than Martin. In Martin's tale, the value of family is still something that holds the Starks together despite the most horrific of tribulations. "The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives".

And when we see the Starks reuniting again, we will see the positive aspects of family bonds come to the fore, and the value of Eddard's honorable teachings etc.

It is just that right now it is too early in the story to see the wheel start to turn.

[Datepalm]

I kind of agree with you. I think what is special with ASOIAF is that everything from the tone, to the vocabulary, the events, the character, the pace, contribute to this feeling of filth and despair.

Really? I guess i've never seen it that way. There's that, but there's also something very epic to it - gorgeous landscapes, dramatic architecture, romantic history, cascades of pageantry. Westeros is grim and grimy, but it's also kind of glorious. The stakes are high, the speeches are powerful, the battles are intense and the witticisms are cutting. Characters have larger-than-life personalities and tragic backstories and dastardly plots and high ideals. The deaths or declines of the heroes are properly heartbreaking, the villains are properly awful, the anti-heroes properly grey and tortured. The redemption arcs are properly convincing.

[Veltigar]

I'm with you, enough of this grimdark misery-fest.

Prince of Thorns is pretty upbeat.

It's the other extreme isn't it :p To fluffy and cute :p