kiasyd Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Ah. That is good to know. Then I suppose as long as we assume the Azor that was promised points to one person only, it's either Daenerys or Aegon... Or one of the secret Targaryens that seem to be popping out of every corner. But I also like the presented idea that AA/PtwP isn't "a single person" but something else. Hmm.. It would appear things are never simple in aSoiaF. Indeed. We have confirmation is that both prophecies point to the same figure - what that figure is, is entirely another question... One person? A dragon with 3 heads? etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Where is Goldenhand the Just? When we last saw him he was on his way to be executed in a smoky cave amidst Brienne's salty tears and in the presence of the only power capable of resurrection (that we know of.) Furthermore he is widely thought to be the one who will kill Cercei, his Nissa Nissa. Not to mention that he owns one of only 2 known red swords. Jamie doesn't love Cersei anymore, he hates her now. Therefore she can't be his Nissa Nissa, if the whole point is to kill someone you love for a higher purpose. Jamie is not the personality type to do that. (Unlike, say, Jon, who did do that with Ygritte, more or less, and he is the kind of person who could put duty above love.) I can't really see any candidates for the Prince that was Promised other than Jon and Dany. Though Victarion as AA would be hilarious - but that is out of the question if AA and TPTWP are the same. There are lots of hints in the text that Melisandre is wrong about Stannis being the AA (and she's using glamour to make his sword look like it's on fire) and he can't be TPTPW. Bran has nothing to do with these prophecies, the Targs, fire or dragons; his destiny is connected to the old gods and the Children of the Forest. Sandor is my favorite character, and I'm sure he'll play an important role in the story, but there's no way he has anything to do with any of these prophecies, he isn't any kind of a prince, and he's a completely wrong personality type to be AA (see above). Mance, Theon, Davos also don't make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleJon Umber Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Could it be Tyrion? :cheers:He seems to tick a lot of the boxes... +"reborn" in amidst salt and smoke on the Blackwater +darkness gathers - spent time on the wall +killed his great love - Shea +warrior+has a "great future"+on a quest to help Daenerys+ bleeding star+Targaryen blood as questionably illegitimate son of Aerys+ woke the 'Dragon' within fAegon by dispatching him to Westeros also will 'wake the dragon' (in the context of Targaryen anger) when presented as a Lannister to Daenarys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Could it be Tyrion? :cheers: He seems to tick a lot of the boxes... +"reborn" in amidst salt and smoke on the Blackwater +darkness gathers - spent time on the wall +killed his great love - Shea +warrior +has a "great future" +on a quest to help Daenerys + bleeding star +Targaryen blood as questionably illegitimate son of Aerys + woke the 'Dragon' within fAegon by dispatching him to Westeros also will 'wake the dragon' (in the context of Targaryen anger) when presented as a Lannister to Daenarys Wasn't Tysha his great love? What bleeding star? Targaryen blood should come from Aerys' and Rhaella's line, not only Aerys'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Jaime is a candidate as well. Salt -Tears at the Sack, death of Elia a salty Dornishwoman Death of Oberyn, a salty Dornishman - could have been JaimeFight with Brienne at the brook near Maidenpool, which is surrounded by salty marshes we know from Brienne's travels with Meribald. She nearly drowns him.Tears at losing his hand - "Sometimes he even wept, until he heard the Mummers laughing. Then he made his eyes go dry and his heart go dead, and prayed for his fever to burn away his tears." Dinner with Roose Bolton at Harrenhal in which Roose mentions laws of hospitalityBath with Brienne of Tarth on the Sapphire Sea, Brienne daughter of SELwyn Smoke - Burning of Brandon and Rickard. Aerys burning lots of people and stuff."Still, still, long after they had snuffed out the torch they used to sear his bloody stump, days after, he could still feel the fire lancing up his arm, and his fingers twisting in the flames, the fingers he no longer had."Fight with Brienne near Maidenpool, with has been sacked and burnedFog of hot bath with Brienne Bleeding star - Brienne's wound near Maidenpool bloomed like a red flower - Brienne is daughter of the EvenstarElia's death - house Martell sigil is a red sunOberyn's death - could have been JaimeChopped off hand - looks like a bleeding star Darkness - Journey to Harrenhal. "Kingslayer, what are you doing?" "Dying."Passing through gate of Harrenhal, thinks he's going to pass outBath house is very dim - coming outside after was like "a slap in the face"His dream of darkness while sleeping on the weirwood stump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Jaime is a candidate as well. snip Same as Tyrion, he doesn't come form Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blugenes Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Jon as Azor Ahai and PtwP with Lightbringer as the child of Dany (who is "stabbed" and dies in childbirth?) and Jon who can be used as a focal point to unite the kingdom and much of Essos in the process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gogossos Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Indeed. We have confirmation is that both prophecies point to the same figure - what that figure is, is entirely another question... One person? A dragon with 3 heads? etc. I don't really believe this but let's just say Aegon is real. That means 3 Targs directly from Aerys line - Dany, Jon and Aegon - form a "dragon with three heads". They meet on an equal footing. Somehow Jon and Aegon get to ride the other dragons and all three help to vanquish the Others. I know know there's the expectation of another dance of dragons but that could be further down the line, when argument erupts about whose seed takes over the throne, Jon or Aegon's. It's plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 The wiki states that salt and smoke signal the prince as well as Azor. Also Aemon said that "Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke", while talking about the princess that was promised. Or, of course, he could have mixed the prophesies. He was old and getting delusional... Wiki ain't canon really. And the video and SSM mentioned above have been debated many times on the boards. If I find the thread I'll post it here. Anyway, I think what GRRM may be suggesting is that Mel believes they're the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shk12344 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Wiki ain't canon really. And the video and SSM mentioned above have been debated many times on the boards. If I find the thread I'll post it here. Anyway, I think what GRRM may be suggesting is that Mel believes they're the same. Here's the link to the video, where GRRM discusses religion of Westoros. At 7 minute mark GRRM uses PTWP phrase to describe Stannis, who has also been described in terms of Azor Ahai Reborn and it's related prophesy (Nisa Nisa (refered to it in the video), salt and smoke etc.....). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIe0Q3PgcOw Now without a doubt, it confirms to me that AAR and PTWP (as well as Last Hero) are one person. But there are plenty of people who disagrees. I tend to view those people as professional contrarians who will disagree with everything even when it's coming from GRRM!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Here's the link to the video, where GRRM discusses religion of Westoros. At 7 minute mark GRRM uses PTWP phrase to describe Stannis, who has also been described in terms of Azor Ahai Reborn and it's related prophesy (Nisa Nisa (refered to it in the video), salt and smoke etc.....). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIe0Q3PgcOw Now without a doubt, it confirms to me that AAR and PTWP (as well as Last Hero) are one person. But there are plenty of people who disagrees. I tend to view those people as professional contrarians who will disagree with everything even when it's coming from GRRM!!!! It's ok, everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if yours is a harsh one. I think GRRM in that scene is narrating Mel's POV - what Mel believes. Because from the book we know TPtwP comes from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and here he calls out Stannis as TPtwP - rather he says his role as TPtwP (as Mel sees it) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shk12344 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's ok, everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if yours is a harsh one. I think GRRM in that scene is narrating Mel's POV - what Mel believes. Because from the book we know TPtwP comes from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and here he calls out Stannis as TPtwP - rather he says his role as TPtwP (as Mel sees it) . You can correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing in the book that suggest Melisandre knows anything about TPTWP prophecy. Her sole focus is AAR prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 You can correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing in the book that suggest Melisandre knows anything about TPTWP prophecy. Her sole focus is AAR prophecy. My friend you are wrong. :( She does mention TPtwP many times, and believes it to be Stannis: "It means that the battle is begun," said Melisandre. "The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor." But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?" "He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Many a times she speaks of Stannis as TPtwP. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shk12344 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 My friend you are wrong. :( She does mention TPtwP many times, and believes it to be Stannis: Many a times she speaks of Stannis as TPtwP. :) Well, in that case I stand corrected. Nevertheless I stand by my original statement that TPTWP and AAR is the same person as stated by GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolquius Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 A question? Could it be... no one? Or someone already dead?I've never liked this story of Azor Ahai reborn. =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 If the two terms are exclusive, I'm gonna go with Jon being TPtwP, and Dany AAR. And Stannis? The very pissed off king who strangled Melisandre. Very nice post btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 A question? Could it be... no one? Or someone already dead? I've never liked this story of Azor Ahai reborn. =/ I think not. GRRM technically can write in a poetic way implying how prophecies need not mean anything in this series, the kind of literary genius he is. But it would make no sense in doing so because the books are so heavily full of foreshadowings. And, in the books he has completed already, the Dunk and Egg novellas that is, we see the peculiar and unexpected way in which a dream or prophecy comes true. A dragon falling on Dunk becomes a dying Baelor falling on Dunk - it alters both the meaning and tone of the prophecy yet keeps the symbolic meaning f the original text. I expect something like that, something surprising to happen. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blugenes Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Sansa might be the prince and/or Azor Ahai as well. Quoting from the OP: What we know of the prince:-a bleeding star heralds his coming-he's born amidst salt and smoke-his is "the song of ice and fire"-the prince is a warrior-he's of the Targaryen line (Aerys & Rhaella's) *Sansa watches her father die on the steps of the Great Sept of Balor ("Bleeding Star")*Her character hardens after the wildfire attack and naval assault on King's Landing*Catelyn is rather passionate, Ned really is not*Sansa is not a physical warrior but certainly will fight for her causes however she can*She is on the verge of ruling the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands, three of the nine major feifdoms*Littlefinger certainly has dark eyes that are cast on, well, everything*Starks have had three centuries to mix with Targaryens from maternal or paternal lines Quoting from the OP again: What we know of Azor's rebirth:-his rebirth is marked by bleeding stars and gathering darkness-he's born again amidst salt and smoke-he will challenge "the darkness" using Lightbringer, which was originally forged by stabbing Nissa Nissa with it-he will wake the stone dragons *Sansa is "reborn" as Stone*Her character hardens after the wildfire attack and naval assault on King's Landing only to take on a whole new name afterwards*Perhaps Lightbringer is somewhere that only Sansa knows or she becomes the first to find it, perhaps in the Crypts of Winterfell or basement of Castle Black? Or maybe it is a child not yet born?*If the "stone dragons" are anything but literal dragon eggs (of which at least five likely exist in King's Landing or the mountains nearby and at least a few more at Dragonstone which might not need a Targaryen to hatch; could Sansa learn to warg young dragons this way?) this might mean her grandmother's people currently under Stannis's control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxman Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Gendry is a better candidate than Davos or the Hound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 A question? Could it be... no one? Or someone already dead? I've never liked this story of Azor Ahai reborn. =/ Well, no one is Arya. :leaving: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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