Aerys spurned Cersei... because of Tyrion?

[Jô Maltese]

(1) This idea follows my reading of various threads, in particular one from ThePosterThatWasPromised playing with the idea of Tyrion being the Sphinx riddle, and another one from JungWheats about still-born dwarves.

I then remembered the conversation between the Red Viper and Tyrion when Oberyn explains how disappointed he had been when he realised Tyrion was actually just a dwarf, not the monster that hearsay described. IMO, Dorne is described as a more socially advanced Kingdom than the other ones, in particular more tolerant and more rational, so Oberyn's rather neutral reaction does not necessarily reflect the general Westeros standard towards dwarves new-borns? And one thing for sure is that for the Targaryens - certainly for Aerys II, racial perfection is a high priority in their breeding "choices"... So a "monster" born from the Lannisters would have been a huge repellant with regard to a potential marriage to a girl (Cersei) issued from the same genitors, whatever her social rank (behind the Royal family, Tywin was third to none) or her indisputable beauty!

(2) Let's move away from this rather consensual theory and add a bit of crackpotry and confirmation bias. I belong to those who believe (there are a few left) that Tyrion is a dragon - my theory here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97382-tyrions-paternity-re-visited/ and that Sansa (the more beautiful Queen) and Tyrion (the Sphinx in-between all) will end up on the Iron Throne (I might be the only believer here :drunk: ). Somehow, I have always felt that Tyrion's birth is so surrounded by mystery, like Summerhall, that it must have changed the history of Westeros... like Summerhall. And now, I have a potential huge game changer in Tyrion's birth: from a genetic point of view, the dwarfish nature of Tyrion would signify a much higher risk if Aerys knew the father was a Targaryen (himself or Rhaegar, more so if Rhaegar in fact) !!!

Feel free to discuss (1) or (2) or both, (2) is obviously fair game for your thrashing :cool4: - but please, hit me with facts and not hateful comments :box:

EDIT: somehow a few sentences disappeared on my first Post?

EDIT 2: missing word.

[Sweetgirl205]

Is it possible he found out about Jamie and Cersie? They had been going at it since childhood.

Of course, Aerys was a little nuts already by then. My personal opinion is that he didn't want his family tied up with the Lannisters. The Lannisters were already too close to the throne by then. Crazy as he was, he knew they would stop at nothing to get what they want.

[Jô Maltese]

Is it possible he found out about Jamie and Cersie? They had been going at it since childhood.

Of course, Aerys was a little nuts already by then. My personal opinion is that he didn't want his family tied up with the Lannisters. The Lannisters were already too close to the throne by then. Crazy as he was, he knew they would stop at nothing to get what they want.

I don't think Aerys would have cared that much about a brother and a sister bedchamber games. And if he distrusted Tywin so much, why did he keep him as his Hand (Tywin was the one resigning IIRC)?

[Faydra]

My personal opinion is that he didn't want his family tied up with the Lannisters. The Lannisters were already too close to the throne by then.

:agree:

I don't think Aerys would have cared that much about a brother and a sister bedchamber games. And if he distrusted Tywin so much, why did he keep him as his Hand (Tywin was the one resigning IIRC)?

Aerys seemed to be quite a traditionalist. I doubt he'd ever let Rhaegar marry a woman that has been or is rumoured to have been deflowered. This is quite common to most of the westerosi people.

And of couse he distrusted Tywin. He couldn't dismiss him without a good reason (it looks bad to the people), so he made his intentions clear in other ways (and succeeded). Tywin resigned because Aerys took Jaime into the KG.

[Jô Maltese]

:agree:

Aerys seemed to be quite a traditionalist. I doubt he'd ever let Rhaegar marry a woman that has been or is rumoured to have been deflowered. This is quite common to most of the westerosi people.

And of couse he distrusted Tywin. He couldn't dismiss him without a good reason (it looks bad to the people), so he made his intentions clear in other ways (and succeeded). Tywin resigned because Aerys took Jaime into the KG.

I am not sure about the 'deflowering rumour', even Tywin seemed to ignore it until very late. And IIRC Cersei's loss of virginity happened later (with Jaime, granted).

And maybe a good reason for Aerys to make Jaime a KG was to compensate for not accepting Cersei as a 'good daughter', therefore taking Jaime as a sort of good son, with no breeding risk. Hence a sort of quid pro quo situation, with Aerys hoping to soothe Tywin's hard feelings but unintentionally achieving the opposite?

[shockwave]

I am not sure about the 'deflowering rumour', even Tywin seemed to ignore it until very late. And IIRC Cersei's loss of virginity happened later (with Jaime, granted).

And maybe a good reason for Aerys to make Jaime a KG was to compensate for not accepting Cersei as a 'good daughter', therefore taking Jaime as a sort of good son, with no breeding risk. Hence a sort of quid pro quo situation, with Aerys hoping to soothe Tywin's hard feelings but unintentionally achieving the opposite?

not a chance. Jamie joining the KG was as an insult to Tywin and to have as hostage.

[Fire Eater]

2)The problem with that theory is GRRM confirmed that Tywin is Tyrion's father.

I think Aerys could have been acting out of jealousy towards Tywin, and it was likely one of the many slights Kevan mentioned. It is also possible that Rhaegar found out that Cersei killed Melara, and asked his father not to be married to her, but told no one that Cersei killed Melara for obvious reasons: no proof, risk conflict with House Lannister and Tywin taking it as a huge slight to call his young daughter a murderer.

[Jô Maltese]

2)The problem with that theory is GRRM confirmed that Tywin is Tyrion's father.

Did he, really?

[Tynned Lannistark]

I don't think this is the reason.

He did because he felt Tywin was too rising too high.

[Fire Eater]

Did he, really?

Almost. What point is there to Tyrion being Aerys's son? ALong with there bieng no evidence for it, it would only take away the momentum of Jon's heritage reveal.

SSM:

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

I doubt Aerys would be allowed by Tywin to name Tyrion, especially giving him the name goes with the naming tradition of "Ty".

[The Kinkslayer]

The real reason is that the mad King wanted to fuck (or did he? :eek:) Ms. Tywin; Also, I'm pretty sure that Varys' little birds heard of Cersei+Jaime.

Ok, my crackpot theory is that the song of ice and fire makes no mention of a lioness, but of the Sun's daughter (fire) and of a shewolf (ice). It is known that Rhaegar would fuck anyone mentioned in his favorite song (thank the seven that he didn't like the Bear and the Maiden fair).

[Greymoon]

I don't believe that Tyrion is anything else but Tywin's son, and if Aerys was so concerned about "defects"...

Well, Elia and Doran Martell are both ill. I've often wondered if it wasn't the same illness that affected them...but in any case, even if the Martells’ illness isn't genetic, Elia would still not have been the "perfect" wife since she was rather fragile.

I think it’s more likely that Aerys refused Cersei out of some childish grudge he held towards Tywin because Tywin was married to Joanna, the woman he desired.

[Jô Maltese]

Almost. What point is there to Tyrion being Aerys's son? ALong with there bieng no evidence for it, it would only take away the momentum of Jon's heritage reveal.

SSM:

I doubt Aerys would be allowed by Tywin to name Tyrion, especially giving him the name goes with the naming tradition of "Ty".

Yes, almost. And this quote from 2002 points at Ned not being the father of Jon, but not necessarily at Tywin being Tyrion's father. The main difference being that Ned knew he was not the father, whereas Tywin did not and therefore always kept his 'father' status. Nevertheless, I fully accept this is quite a stretch and that almost (and Gemma's statement) is indeed a strong clue for my crackpotry to be, well, just crackpotry after all ;) .

[Faydra]

I am not sure about the 'deflowering rumour', even Tywin seemed to ignore it until very late. And IIRC Cersei's loss of virginity happened later (with Jaime, granted).

And maybe a good reason for Aerys to make Jaime a KG was to compensate for not accepting Cersei as a 'good daughter', therefore taking Jaime as a sort of good son, with no breeding risk. Hence a sort of quid pro quo situation, with Aerys hoping to soothe Tywin's hard feelings but unintentionally achieving the opposite?

I wasn't saying that there was such rumour. I was saying that it could not have been ignored, had it existed. Which contradicts your part about Aerys not minding 'bedchamber games'.

As for Jaime, that was clearly a slight. And a great one. Aerys robbed Tywin of his heir, thing that echoed even years later, when Jaime refused to take over Casterly Rock.

[Mayura]

Aerys was growing more and more suspicious of his hand Tywin who he thought was already gaining too much power. Plus Aerys was quite "fond" of Joanna Lannister who Tywin married.

So basically I think Aerys refused Cersei for his son simply because he refused to help Tywin grow the influence and power of the already powerful house Lannister. (and yes, because Aerys was petty as well, he wanted to vex Tywin too)

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

As for Jaime, that was clearly a slight. And a great one. Aerys robbed Tywin of his heir, thing that echoed even years later, when Jaime refused to take over Casterly Rock.

I do not agree with your 'clearly'. I do not think there is anything conclusive at this point in the series from what we know from the POVs (Ned, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Selmy) with regard to Aerys motives in nominating Jaime in his KG. And from other POVs, we know that this can be viewed as a great honour (Brienne, Jorah, Selmy, Aerys, Aero Hotah).

Aerys was growing more and more suspicious of his hand Tywin who he thought was already gaining too much power.

Not fact, interpretation and hearsay.

Plus Aerys was quite "fond" of Joanna Lannister who Tywin married.

Probably fact, but stated by one character only (Gemma IIRC, or was it Varys?). Anyway, this quasi-fact can feed both theories...

[Faydra]

I do not agree with your 'clearly'. I do not think there is anything conclusive at this point in the series from what we know from the POVs (Ned, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Selmy) with regard to Aerys motives in nominating Jaime in his KG. And from other POVs, we know that this can be viewed as a great honour (Brienne, Jorah, Selmy, Aerys, Aero Hotah).

Aerys was many things but stupid was not one of them. I'm pretty sure he could see that robbing one of a title and family was not a great honour. And he had no reasons of honouring Tywin, he hated him actually.

“Father will never consent,” Jaime objected.

“The king won’t ask him. And once it’s done, Father can’t object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne’s tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand’s guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won’t stop this, either.”

“But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock...”

“Is it a rock you want? Or me?”

A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.

Jaime’s investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly - Cersei had judged that correctly - but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him.

The KG is not at all a good place for noble firstborns. It may be a great title for people like Dunk or warriors who are not interested in holding any land, but not for the heirs of the great houses. Even Cersei knows that Tywin wouldn't stomach that. And she isn't the brightest thing on earth.

[Jô Maltese]

Aerys was many things but stupid was not one of them. I'm pretty sure he could see that robbing one of a title and family was not a great honour. And he had no reasons of honouring Tywin, he hated him actually.

The KG is not at all a good place for noble firstborns. It may be a great title for people like Dunk or warriors who are not interested in holding any land, but not for the heirs of the great houses. Even Cersei knows that Tywin wouldn't stomach that. And she isn't the brightest thing on earth.

Now this is what I call an excellent case making. I can only say "yes, you do have a point (or two) here". ;)

[CosimaistheHottest]

I don't believe that Tyrion is anything else but Tywin's son, and if Aerys was so concerned about "defects"...

Well, Elia and Doran Martell are both ill. I've often wondered if it wasn't the same illness that affected them...but in any case, even if the Martells’ illness isn't genetic, Elia would still not have been the "perfect" wife since she was rather fragile.

I think it’s more likely that Aerys refused Cersei out of some childish grudge he held towards Tywin because Tywin was married to Joanna, the woman he desired.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Martells genetically.

Doran has gout, which isn't a genetic disease. He was a healthy young man.

Elia was born a month early from Doran's own words. Usually premature babies can have undeveloped lungs and other things that have nothing to do with genetics, which makes them more prone to infections and other diseases.

Elia herself seemed to give birth to healthy babies, from thoughts on Rhaenys and Aegon by others they were fine and seemed to be healthy children.

All of the Martell children-Rhaenys, Aegon, Trystane, Arianne, Quentyn and the Sand Snakes are and were fine.

Back on topic: I doubt it had anything to do with Tyrion. It was because of Aerys jealousy of Tywin that Cersei didn't get betrothed to Rhaegar.

[Guest]

Here is my problem with the Tyrion is a Targ theory:

How exactly did Aerys get hold of Joanna? I could see him maybe having a go at her before or immediatley after the wedding, but after the incident at the wedding, surely Tywin would have kept her out of where Aerys could get hold of her. I don't see Tywin putting her in a situation where she would be vulnerable to Aerys whims, and if he had commanded Tywin bring her to him then surely we would have heard about it by now.

I think it would be more likely that Cersei and Jaime were Targs than Tyrion.