Why did the Kings guard at the ToJ try keep Eddard away from Lyanna?

[Greywind84]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but how could the Kingsguard be guarding Jon 'the King' when Viserys was still alive and born before him? Does the polygamy system change the order of succession?

[Ygrain]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but how could the Kingsguard be guarding Jon 'the King' when Viserys was still alive and born before him? Does the polygamy system change the order of succession?

The first son's legitimate children inherit before siblings, so, yes, polygamy would be a game changer.

[XSarellaX]

Maybe they wanted Jon to be raised as a prince, as Rhaegar's son. They could always wait a few years, prepare Jon, bring him back to Westeros and try to reclaim the IT. They knew Ned would never accept the plan,

It's just a guess though :P Crowning Jon would be a very dangerous move. I don't know how much support from the major houses the KG could expect him to get, since killing Ned would eliminate the chances of the Northern armies fighting for Jon, and thus the Riverlands. The Vale, Stormlands, CR, would side with Robert, and Dorne and the Tyrells could go either way.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that they were keeping Ned away from Lyanna, they were keeping a Rebel away from the King.

[Black Crow]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but how could the Kingsguard be guarding Jon 'the King' when Viserys was still alive and born before him? Does the polygamy system change the order of succession?

Its not a question of polygamy because Viserys doesn't at first come into the line of succession.

The way these things work is that the elder son of the King inherits and siblings come nowhere.

That's straightforward and in this case Aerys is the king and Rhaegar as his first-born son is the heir.

What happens next now depends on Rhaegar. If he dies childless the throne then passes to his younger brother Viserys, but if he himself has a son, in this case Aegon the claim passes straight to him. Viserys doesn't get a look in.

Unfortunately young Aegon and his sister get their heads bashed in, so the succession passes first to Viserys and then to Danaerys after all.

Where it gets complicated is the matter of R+L=J. If Jon is indeed the surviving son of Rhaegar then as such he has a better claim than Rhaegar's sister Danaerys but its not straightforward and would depend on status. In theory as a bastard Jon would have no rights of inheritance but its not an immutable rule and is the sort of thing that keeps lawyers and sellswords gainfully employed for generations. Ultimately it comes down to Varys' story of the King, the Bisop and the Banker...

As to the question of polygamy it doesn't come into it. Either Jon is a bastard or he isn't. We don't know whether or if Rhaegar and Lyanna ever went through a form of marriage but if we assume that to be so the fact of the matter is that by the time it all went down at the Tower of Joy, Lyanna would have been Rhaegar's only wife since his first had earlier been slain in King's Landing.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Why should they fight to the death if Jon was out of the equation? Ned offered them honourable surrender, offered them to retreat to do their Kingsguard duty to Viserys. He clearly respected them and didn't want to fight.

Did he offer to let the retreat to cover Viserys? I don't recall that.

[Greywind84]

Its not a question of polygamy because Viserys doesn't at first come into the line of succession.

The way these things work is that the elder son of the King inherits and siblings come nowhere.

That's straightforward and in this case Aerys is the king and Rhaegar as his first-born son is the heir.

What happens next now depends on Rhaegar. If he dies childless the throne then passes to his younger brother Viserys, but if he himself has a son, in this case Aegon the claim passes straight to him. Viserys doesn't get a look in.

Unfortunately young Aegon and his sister get their heads bashed in, so the succession passes first to Viserys and then to Danaerys after all.

Where it gets complicated is the matter of R+L=J. If Jon is indeed the surviving son of Rhaegar then as such he has a better claim than Rhaegar's sister Danaerys but its not straightforward and would depend on status. In theory as a bastard Jon would have no rights of inheritance but its not an immutable rule and is the sort of thing that keeps lawyers and sellswords gainfully employed for generations. Ultimately it comes down to Varys' story of the King, the Bisop and the Banker...

Yep, brainfart on my part. Had it in my head that Jon and Viserys were on the same level of succession. Its either Jon or Aegon/Faegon's claim.

[Jory Cassel]

As to the question of polygamy it doesn't come into it.

Yes it does.

Either Jon is a bastard or he isn't. We don't know whether or if Rhaegar and Lyanna ever went through a form of marriage but if we assume that to be so the fact of the matter is that by the time it all went down at the Tower of Joy, Lyanna would have been Rhaegar's only wife since his first had earlier been slain in King's Landing.

Validity of a polygamous marriage is the prerequisite for the whole scenario; if one holds the opinion that polygamous marriages (practiced by Targaryens) are invalid (I have yet to see coherent reasoning to support this), then Rhaegar never could've taken another wife as he was married at the time, an invalid marriage does not automatically enter legality when the former wife deceases.

[seruseru]

I think that they were afraid that Ned would try to kill Lyanna and Jon, but the fact that Jon was spirited away to Winterfell and lived a bastard's life there sure speaks to how much he loved her to the point that he would conceal Rhaegar's son by her from Robert.

Yikes. Ned's an honorable guy though, and kinslaying is an affront to all the gods: the old and the new.

There is absolutely no need for them to fear Ned killing his sister & nephew...

[Ygrain]

Did he offer to let the retreat to cover Viserys? I don't recall that.

He informs them that Viserys is on Dragonstone, and they reply that KG do not flee, as if they were given that option.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

He informs them that Viserys is on Dragonstone, and they reply that KG do not flee, as if they were given that option.

I see :)

[Ygrain]

I see :)

:-)

It follows the same pattern as the offer to surrender - he mentions the Lords at Storms' End bent the knee, and the KG reply that their knees do not bend.

[Duranaparthur]

To me, it's not a matter of the invalidity of polygamy, it's the unlikelihood of anyone believing that L and R were legally married. Too much time has passed and there was too much mystery for me to believe that Jon's potential legal claim could be believed through anything but martial force. Aegon's story is arguably much more plausible and would have the backup of his looks, his previously acknowledged existence, and the personal backing of Varys and Jon Connington, and let's be honest, the meat of his claim is still going to be the army at his back. Jon's potential heritage would come off as a horribly constructed and believe beggaring proposition.

And I think the situatuion at the TOJ could have been diffused, if not for a few facts; Aerys's Kingsguard has a strong bushido element to it with their refusal to interfere with their boss's stupidity while not being involved, so they probably figured their exit was coming towards them, and Ned's recall has his sister screaming for him in obvious pain. I don't know about you guys, but if my little sister screams in pain after being kidnapped, I'm not in negotiating mode anymore.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Yikes. Ned's an honorable guy though, and kinslaying is an affront to all the gods: the old and the new.

There is absolutely no need for them to fear Ned killing his sister & nephew...

Yes there is, most of Neds's rep probably comes from the Rebellion and we know from the fog of war in the current series that false knowledge is spread. I highly doubt that they know for sure that Tywin was the one who killed the children or that Ned and Robert clashed about it after the fact.

[mambru]

Only problem here: she was raised at Winterfell whereas he was fostered in the Eyrie, and regardless, you do remember Lyanna still fearing until Ned promised? If Lyanna wasn't wholly sure he would protect her son, what are the KG going to do, take their chances?

The KG are going to have to take their chances no matter WHAT they do. Fighting Ned without trying to negotiate with him first is ALSO taking their chances that they won't all be killed, or be so decimated and wounded that they cease to be effective as a fighting force (thus leaving baby Jon with no protection worth the name).

Yes, parleying with the enemy in a war is always a risk. But people do it all the time anyway, because sometimes what can be gained (in this case, avoiding a fight which will reduce Jon's chances to survive no matter WHO wins, and maybe even getting help in leaving the country) is WORTH the risk.

And if kinslaying is a universal taboo that even a psychopath like Roose Bolton was reluctant to violate, it doesn't seem like SUCH a big risk to assume that maybe Eddard Stark might not want to violate it either, no matter what kind of man he was.

Yes, Lyanna was afraid. It's natural that she would be. She hasn't seen Ned for at least a year, and she doesn't know how he's reacted to the death of Rickard and Brandon and if he blames HER for them. But Lyanna wouldn't have told the KG to kill Ned without trying to speak to him because of that fear. And she would have been right. But they didn't listen to her, and IMO they should have.

And yes, the KG would have a natural distrust for Ned. But you always have a natural distrust for your enemy in a parley - otherwise they wouldn't be your enemy. You can work around it. One of them can stand in the sickroom with Ned and Lyanna and judge the sincerity of his vow to her. Then they can discuss the details with Ned. Will you swear on your unborn son that you will keep your silence? What about your friends? Oh, they'll do what I say. Well, I don't trust your friends. Will you agree that you'll come with us alone to the port to escape while your friends stay behind in the tower and we take all their horses with us? You mean, make myself your hostage till you leave the country? Well, yes, actually....

Negotiations like that.

If the negotiations fail at any time - if the negotiators can't agree on some vital point - then the option always exists to escort Ned out of the tower, hand him his sword back, and scream "En garde!" and things go on just as they did in the book. They have nothing to lose by negotiating, and a great deal to gain for Jon. IMO, the only explanation for their failure to negotiate was that they were ONLY interested in that last honorable fight (and that probable honorable death that they DID end up getting), not really in protecting Jon.

[Ygrain]

And I think the situatuion at the TOJ could have been diffused, if not for a few facts; Aerys's Kingsguard has a strong bushido element to it with their refusal to interfere with their boss's stupidity while not being involved, so they probably figured their exit was coming towards them, and Ned's recall has his sister screaming for him in obvious pain. I don't know about you guys, but if my little sister screams in pain after being kidnapped, I'm not in negotiating mode anymore.

You have the sequence in a wrong order - the fighting starts first and then Lyanna screams. Only, Lyanna calls her brother Ned, not Eddard, and it turns out that the addressation "Lord Eddard" is Vayon Poole, trying to wake him.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was

pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

“Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark.

Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.

“Lord Eddard?” A shadow stood over the bed.

“How … how long?” The sheets were tangled, his leg splinted and plastered. A dull throb of pain shot up his side.

“Six days and seven nights.” The voice was Vayon Poole’s.

[Jory Cassel]

And if kinslaying is a universal taboo that even a psychopath like Roose Bolton was reluctant to violate, it doesn't seem like SUCH a big risk to assume that maybe Eddard Stark might not want to violate it either, no matter what kind of man he was.

straw-man, neither I nor the poster you originally replied to suggested he was going to kill him, only that he might've handed him over to Robert.

Yes, Lyanna was afraid. It's natural that she would be. She hasn't seen Ned for at least a year, and she doesn't know how he's reacted to the death of Rickard and Brandon and if he blames HER for them. But Lyanna wouldn't have told the KG to kill Ned without trying to speak to him because of that fear. And she would have been right. But they didn't listen to her, and IMO they should have.

Who said she did?

Can't you see that, if even Lyanna isn't certain how her brother is going to react, the KG - who dedicated their life to protecting the King - won't take that chance? Especially when considering that Ned obviously is loyal to the King who brought down the dynasty they are loyal to.

And yes, the KG would have a natural distrust for Ned. But you always have a natural distrust for your enemy in a parley - otherwise they wouldn't be your enemy. You can work around it. One of them can stand in the sickroom with Ned and Lyanna and judge the sincerity of his vow to her. Then they can discuss the details with Ned. Will you swear on your unborn son that you will keep your silence? What about your friends? Oh, they'll do what I say. Well, I don't trust your friends. Will you agree that you'll come with us alone to the port to escape while your friends stay behind in the tower and we take all their horses with us? You mean, make myself your hostage till you leave the country? Well, yes, actually....

It is not in the Kingsguard's power to deprive Jon of his Kingship. (eta: to clarify, while it factually was in their power, it was in discordance with their duty and vow and therefore not an eligible option for them)

[eggs]

apparently they were trying to keep him from Jon, Even Lyanna figured that Ned must have felt some kind of way about Jons birth and made him promise to protect him (probably).

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Polygamy isn't an issue because Rhaegar wouldn't be the first Targ to have multiple wives. Aegon the Conqueror had two wives, both of them his sisters and nobody disputes the legitimacy of THOSE marriges. Why is it okay for him but its not okay when Rhaegar supposedly does it? I think arguing against the legitimacy of the marriage is a false argument. If you argue they didn't get married at all it would make more sense.

[mambru]

straw-man, neither I nor the poster you originally replied to suggested he was going to kill him, only that he might've handed him over to Robert.

Which would have ensured his death. IMO, a man like Ned would not consider himself innocent of kinslaying just because he didn't literally get Jon's blood on his own hands. He knew very well what King Bob thought of 'dragonspawn', knew that if he handed over his nephew to Bob, the kid would be soon be dead and Bob would knight whoever did it. IMO, you don't get to be innocent of kinslaying just because an intermediary actually takes care of the messy parts.

Can't you see that, if even Lyanna isn't certain how her brother is going to react, the KG - who dedicated their life to protecting the King - won't take that chance?

So, what, three Kingsguard versus seven fighting men who've been trained by a REAL war is a sure win for the KG? It wasn't. And the KG would know that fighting them is ALSO "taking a chance" - a worse one, in my opinion. Again, what did they have to lose by negotiating BEFORE that battle - and then rejecting a deal if they decide the odds in battle are better?

It is not in the Kingsguard's power to deprive Jon of his Kingship.

I really don't know what you mean by this. That Jon is king in his dinky little tower and if he flees the country he won't be king anymore? What?