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Jon and Robb's age


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#1 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

I saw on various pages of the Wiki that Robb is listed as being the oldest of the two. But as far as I can remember from the books, Jon and Robb are described as being roughly the same age: they're fourteen when AGOT starts, and then they turn fifteen over the next couple of months. Obviously, being "the same age" means they were born a few weeks or months apart, but I don't remember if the books specifically mention which of them was born first. Does anyone know a quote from the books to support the idea that Robb is older than Jon?



#2 Lady Sansa Stark

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:12 PM

Well, Robb was conceived around after a year of the Tourney of Harrenhal, when Ned married Catelyn, and as far as I know, Jon was conceived around 9 months before the Sack of King's Landing, which would make Robb a couple of months older than Jon. 



#3 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:17 PM

 Jon was conceived around 9 months before the Sack of King's Landing, which would make Robb a couple of months older than Jon. 

 

But isn't that speculation? Of course, if we assume R+L=J, then yes, Jon was born soon after the Sack, just before Ned found Lyanna dying from birth complications. But this theory hasn't been confirmed yet. And if it happens to be false (which I highly doubt, but still...) then Jon could have been born anytime during the war, either before or after Robb.



#4 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:22 PM

But isn't that speculation? 

No. 

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months.


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 31 January 2014 - 02:22 PM.


#5 Lady Sansa Stark

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:22 PM

 

But isn't that speculation? Of course, if we assume R+L=J, then yes, Jon was born soon after the Sack, just before Ned found Lyanna dying from birth complications. But this theory hasn't been confirmed yet. And if it happens to be false (which I highly doubt, but still...) then Jon could have been born anytime during the war, either before or after Robb.

If we would suggest that Ned is the father, he should still have been conceived after Robb was, because I don't think Ned cheated on Catelyn even before he was married to her (call it cheating, you know what I mean), so he should still be older. I think Catelyn would have noticed if Robb appeared to be younger than Jon. :)



#6 Frey Pie

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:27 PM

I saw on various pages of the Wiki that Robb is listed as being the oldest of the two. But as far as I can remember from the books, Jon and Robb are described as being roughly the same age: they're fourteen when AGOT starts, and then they turn fifteen over the next couple of months. Obviously, being "the same age" means they were born a few weeks or months apart, but I don't remember if the books specifically mention which of them was born first. Does anyone know a quote from the books to support the idea that Robb is older than Jon?

All we know is that Ned had Cat up the duff before he went away to the Trident and to continue the war. When he came back she had given birth but Ned also brought Jon home with him

 


#7 rivergirl

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:49 PM

The tricky thing about this is that no matter when he was conceived, it's quite likely that assuming R+L=J, Jon was born either early or late. He could have been born early due to Lyanna's illness/stress/time spent on horseback on the way to the ToJ, or he could have been born late because she somehow kept him in until Ned got there. Which i know doesn't make much sense, but its more plausible than her just happening to give birth just before he arrived. Who knows, maybe she didn't want to have a baby if he was going to be left alone, but felt alright about it once she knew Ned would take care of him. 

 

In any case, Lyanna wasn't in a good state and probably didn't give birth on her expected date. I think the more likely of the two options is that he was born early, explaining why he's smaller and slighter than Robb when the Tullys don't have particularly "tall genes." I also think Robb must have been at least two months older than Jon, because his birthday was never mentioned even though the books had been going for at least that long by the time he was at the Wall- remembering King Bob stayed a while at Winterfell, the North is big and horses aren't that fast.  If R+L=J and we're assuming nobody stabbed Lyanna, a premature birth explains her death and Jon's stature and why he's definitely not older than Robb. 

 

Anyway… i think Robb is almost certainly older, but there's always the chance that he's just assumed to be because 

1. He's taller, and 

2. Ned wouldn't want Cat thinking there was any chance at all of Jon threatening his claim



#8 David Selig

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:04 PM

In any case, Lyanna wasn't in a good state and probably didn't give birth on her expected date. I think the more likely of the two options is that he was born early, explaining why he's smaller and slighter than Robb when the Tullys don't have particularly "tall genes."

They don't? Both Hoster and the Blackfish are described as tall. Catelyn too IIRC.



#9 rivergirl

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:11 PM

They don't? Both Hoster and the Blackfish are described as tall. Catelyn too IIRC.

 

You do recall correctly, i just should have phrased that better :)

 

They're not especially tall in comparison to the Starks and/or Targaryens. Brandon, Benjen, Rhaegar and Viserys are all described as tall too. So while the Tullys definitely aren't short, they aren't remarkably tall in the way that, for example, the Baratheons are. 



#10 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:18 PM

If we would suggest that Ned is the father, he should still have been conceived after Robb was, because I don't think Ned cheated on Catelyn even before he was married to her (call it cheating, you know what I mean), so he should still be older. I think Catelyn would have noticed if Robb appeared to be younger than Jon. :)

 

Yeah, I guess you're right. We know Jon was conceived/born somewhere in the South, so if Ned is the father, he had to have conceived him during the war, after he married and impregnated Catelyn, because as far as we know, between the tourney of HH and the start of the rebellion, he was at Winterfell, not sleeping around in the South.

 

The tricky thing about this is that no matter when he was conceived, it's quite likely that assuming R+L=J, Jon was born either early or late. He could have been born early due to Lyanna's illness/stress/time spent on horseback on the way to the ToJ, or he could have been born late because she somehow kept him in until Ned got there. Which i know doesn't make much sense, but its more plausible than her just happening to give birth just before he arrived. Who knows, maybe she didn't want to have a baby if he was going to be left alone, but felt alright about it once she knew Ned would take care of him. 

 

In any case, Lyanna wasn't in a good state and probably didn't give birth on her expected date. I think the more likely of the two options is that he was born early, explaining why he's smaller and slighter than Robb when the Tullys don't have particularly "tall genes." I also think Robb must have been at least two months older than Jon, because his birthday was never mentioned even though the books had been going for at least that long by the time he was at the Wall- remembering King Bob stayed a while at Winterfell, the North is big and horses aren't that fast.  If R+L=J and we're assuming nobody stabbed Lyanna, a premature birth explains her death and Jon's stature and why he's definitely not older than Robb. 

 

Anyway… i think Robb is almost certainly older, but there's always the chance that he's just assumed to be because 

1. He's taller, and 

2. Ned wouldn't want Cat thinking there was any chance at all of Jon threatening his claim

 

And yeah, if R+L=J, then premature or not, Jon couldn't have been born too long before Lyanna's death. Birth complications can appear up to a few weeks after birth, but in a medieval world with no proper medical care, it's hard to believe she would have survived too long.

 

However, I don't think that being born premature has anything to do with your height. And besides, Jon is not short, he's just a bit shorter that Robb, who is described by various people as rather tall.

 

Also, a premature child is not likely to survive in a medieval world. And in that kind of world, women died in childbirth all the time, not just when they gave birth prematurely.



#11 Lord Thornhart

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:23 PM

 

No. 

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months.

 

So Jon was born in 283 AL? Then he and Robb should have been 15 at the start of the series, right?


Edited by Lord Thornhart, 31 January 2014 - 03:24 PM.


#12 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:27 PM

Yeah, they are both 14 at the start of the series and turn 15 shortly after (the same year).



#13 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:27 PM

So Jon was born in 283 AL? Then he and Robb should have been 15 at the start of the series, right?

I think that you would be interesting reading this


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 31 January 2014 - 03:28 PM.


#14 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:49 PM

The thing with that timeline is that it's based on a lot of assumptions and it's not error-proof. It can't even be error-proof, because GRRM himself was intentionally vague with the timeline at some points.

 

In the end, it looks like there is no actual confirmation in the books that Robb is older than Jon, but it is implied he is, because as far as we know, Ned was either in Winterfell or at the Vale before he married Cat and he couldn't have conceived Jon in the South. And if Lyanna was Jon's mother, there's no way she conceived him before Robb, because otherwise Jon would have been several months, up to a year old when Ned found him and Lyanna's cause of death wouldn't make sense.

 

The only way Jon could be a little older than Robb is if Ned conceived him at the Vale (maybe with the fisherman's daughter?) shortly before he had to marry Cat.



#15 Arya Targaryen

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:12 PM

The thing with that timeline is that it's based on a lot of assumptions and it's not error-proof. It can't even be error-proof, because GRRM himself was intentionally vague with the timeline at some points.

 

In the end, it looks like there is no actual confirmation in the books that Robb is older than Jon, but it is implied he is, because as far as we know, Ned was either in Winterfell or at the Vale before he married Cat and he couldn't have conceived Jon in the South. And if Lyanna was Jon's mother, there's no way she conceived him before Robb, because otherwise Jon would have been several months, up to a year old when Ned found him and Lyanna's cause of death wouldn't make sense.

 

The only way Jon could be a little older than Robb is if Ned conceived him at the Vale (maybe with the fisherman's daughter?) shortly before he had to marry Cat.

I don't see why. We don't know when Robb was born, only that he was conceived within two weeks after Ned's and Cat's marriage. But Jon could have been conceived practically anytime, either before or after that marriage (if J=R+L), and could have been born before Robb.

ETA: Just to make it clear: the war lasted a year, but Ned and Cat didn't get married until after the war was already on, for about a couple of months. That would put Robb's birth around the time of the Sack, too.

 

My guess is that Jon is slightly older, but it doesn't really matter. And because Ned wanted to sell Jon as his bastard, he must have claimed Jon is younger for two reasons:

1) The timeline wouldn't make sense as Ned went south only after his marriage and, most importantly,


2. Ned wouldn't want Cat thinking there was any chance at all of Jon threatening his claim

Anyway, they must be really close in age, give or take a month at most, otherwise everyone would have realised Jon is older (if he really is).


Edited by Arya Targaryen, 31 January 2014 - 04:15 PM.


#16 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:22 PM

I don't see why. We don't know when Robb was born, only that he was conceived within two weeks after Ned's and Cat's marriage. But Jon could have been conceived practically anytime, either before or after that marriage (if J=R+L), and could have been born before Robb.

 

Yes, Robb was conceived just after Ned and Cat's wedding. But from that point till the end of the war (when Ned found Lyanna dying at the TOJ) it took about a year, maybe more. So if L+R had already conceived Jon when N+C conceived Robb, then Jon would have been several months old when Ned reached the TOJ. And it wouldn't make sense for Lyanna to be dying in a bed full of blood several months after giving birth. She had to have died a few days or at most a few weeks after the birth, if birth complications were the cause of death (and that seems indeed the most plausible cause of death). Therefore, if R+L=J, then Jon is a few months younger than Robb.



#17 Arya Targaryen

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:26 PM

 

Yes, Robb was conceived just after Ned and Cat's wedding. But from that point till the end of the war (when Ned found Lyanna dying at the TOJ) it took about a year, maybe more. So if L+R had already conceived Jon when N+C conceived Robb, then Jon would have been several months old when Ned reached the TOJ. And it wouldn't make sense for Lyanna to be dying in a bed full of blood several months after giving birth. She had to have died a few days or at most a few weeks after the birth, if birth complications were the cause of death (and that seems indeed the most plausible cause of death). Therefore, if R+L=J, then Jon is a few months younger than Robb.

No. It took less than a year, IIRC. The war lasted a year, but Ned and Cat got married well after the war already started. Jon Arryn married Lysa, because he lost his heirs in a previous battle so the war was already on.



#18 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:35 PM

Good point. I didn't remember that. Oh well, in this case nothing is for sure :dunno:

 

I'll just settle for "Robb and Jon are roughly the same age" :) it still doesn't explain why the Wiki is so sure Robb is older, but then again, the wiki is not foul-proof either.

 

Good night!



#19 Arya Targaryen

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:40 PM

Because Robb is CLAIMED to be older. But that's not necessarily true (because we know/suspect R+L). However, so far it's not canon, that's why it isn't in the wiki.



#20 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:41 PM

Because Robb is CLAIMED to be older. But that's not necessarily true (because we know/suspect R+L). However, so far it's not canon, that's why it isn't in the wiki.

Well we do know when Jon was born.


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 31 January 2014 - 04:41 PM.