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Mance is illiterate


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#1 Paper Waver

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:36 AM

Because there is no evidence of him reading something. Some people thinks that Mance was taught how to read and write at the Wall. He was captured as a child and the Wall lacks the men with these qualities.

 

Jon understood the necessity of literate men only after starting to regarrison the old castles. Before that, there was no need to push men into reading lessons. And Jon has a very different view of wildlings from the previous LC's. So, I can think of no reason why Qorgyle (or the one before him) wanted Mance to learn to read and write.

 

“Your son has no king’s blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.”

 

Gilly's child is still a baby. That is why it should be easier to give him the training by a maester. This training requires patience and obedience, which Mance lacks both.

 

“Our false king has a prickly manner,” Melisandre told Jon Snow, “but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life.”

 

“Why did he desert?”

“For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it.” Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. “He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that’s true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.”

“Was he a good ranger?”

“He was the best of us,” said the Halfhand, “and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey.”

 

Mance was with wildling raiders. He was not an easily moldable child. There is another one we can compare him to.

 

Squirrel answered for herself. “Out a window, and straight down to the godswood. I was twelve the first time my brother took me raiding south o’ your Wall. That’s where I got my name. My brother said I looked like a squirrel running up a tree. I’ve done that Wall six times since, over and back again. I think I can climb down some stone tower.”

 

Squirrel started climbing the Wall and raiding at 12. I think Mance was no different than her. There is even a younger version of Squirrel.

 

Two of the boys were girls in disguise. When Jon saw them, he dispatched Rory and Big Liddle to bring them to him. One came meekly enough, the other kicking and biting. This could end badly. “Do these two have famous fathers?”

“Har! Them skinny things? Not likely. Picked by lot.”

“They’re girls.”

“Are they?” Tormund squinted at the pair of them from his saddle. “Me and Lord Crow made a wager on which o’ you has the biggest member. Pull them breeches down, give us a look.”

One of the girls turned red. The other glared defiantly. “You leave us alone, Tormund Giantstink. You let us go.”

Har! You win, crow. Not a cock between ’em. The little one’s got her a set o’ balls, though. A spearwife in the making, her.”

 

Therefore, Mance was half a raider himself when he was captured. He never learned to obey. It is better to assume that he was never given a maester's lessons. Rather he must have been trained as a ranger all along.



#2 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:40 AM

and thus never wrote the PL?

#3 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:44 AM

You have given absolutely no evidence here that Mance was twelve or older when he was taken by the NW.



#4 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:49 AM

Mance was brought to the Wall by his Wildling mother iirc. Given the Wildlings fierce independence and desire to appear strong,ance would most likely be under the age of 14. Furthermore, we see in Dance with Dragons the NW reluctance to accept Wildling men into their ranks. Far more likely that they accept a child

#5 Mr Smith

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:56 AM

Interesting stuff, but frankly the evidence you've given pales in comparison to the evidence I've seen that Mance DID in fact write the Pink Letter. Mance may not have been inclined to obey, but in truth that was unlikely to prevent him from learning to read if it was something he himself wanted to do. And even if you're assumptions are correct, there's still a chance he had someone write the pink letter for him. Not convinced I'm afraid.



#6 Paper Waver

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:01 AM

and thus never wrote the PL?

 

You can argue that he may have Whoresbane wrote the letter.

 

You have given absolutely no evidence here that Mance was twelve or older when he was taken by the NW.

 

 taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. How do you interpret this? Where were the wildling raiders killed and what were they doing?

 

Mance was brought to the Wall by his Wildling mother iirc. Given the Wildlings fierce independence and desire to appear strong,ance would most likely be under the age of 14. Furthermore, we see in Dance with Dragons the NW reluctance to accept Wildling men into their ranks. Far more likely that they accept a child

 

That is what I say as well. Mance was a wildling child, not a baby. I think he joined the raiders at a young age like Squirrel. The NW didnot want to kill a boy so young.



#7 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:09 AM

The raiders might have been north of the wall, followed by a group of rangers, much like Waymar's was. The rangers killed the WIldling raiders and only then found a baby. As one option ;)



#8 Kennedy the Keen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:15 AM

If Mance wanted to read he would learn to read. How Long did it take Davos to start reading, I'm sure along the many adventures o Mance, he learned to read along the way. He's been south of the wall many times and there some people north of the wall who can read...

Can the thenns read and write? Mance spent a lot of time with them to win over the Magnar. He "bested him 4 times"...

#9 Paper Waver

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:44 AM

The raiders might have been north of the wall, followed by a group of rangers, much like Waymar's was. The rangers killed the WIldling raiders and only then found a baby. As one option ;)

 

Qhorin says a child not a baby. Normal children do not hang with raiders.

 

If Mance wanted to read he would learn to read. How Long did it take Davos to start reading, I'm sure along the many adventures o Mance, he learned to read along the way. He's been south of the wall many times and there some people north of the wall who can read...

Can the thenns read and write? Mance spent a lot of time with them to win over the Magnar. He "bested him 4 times"...

 

The case of Davos is very different. What were those adventures of Mance and what makes you think that he learned to read along the way? Being south of the Wall does not make you literate. What is the rate of literacy among the people south of the Wall?

 

There is no proof of Thenns or other wildlings knowing how to read and write.

 

“Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?”

“By wing? We have no trained ravens.”

 

He handed Tormund Giantsbane the letter. “Here, see for yourself.”
The wildling gave the letter a dubious look and handed it right back. “Feels nasty … but Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him. They never have any good to say, now do they?”


#10 Kennedy the Keen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:03 AM

Well if the Thenns can't read, I sure hope someone teaches them because they are the rightful owner of Karhold now...

I know the Thenn people had a more advanced way of living then most Wildlings, but you bring a good point... I truly don't know if they can read or write, it is just an assumption, I suppose.

I'll try and do some research and see if I can find anything relating the Thenns being civilized enough to read and write.

#11 fuem

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:05 AM

I wonder what Mance did to go to the wall in the first place.



#12 Kennedy the Keen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:06 AM

Sorry if I sound ignorant, I am just a Mance and Wildling supporter and fan! In my opinion they are the baddest people in the realm/world!

#13 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:14 AM

The Thenns definitely can't read. Letters only came to Westeros with the Andals, and the Thenns are in many ways the least Andal-influenced group on Westeros; they do not even use metals besides copper.


Edited by theguyfromtheVale, 01 February 2014 - 08:14 AM.


#14 Mrs. Tyrion Lannister

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:17 AM

I wonder what Mance did to go to the wall in the first place.

He was caught with wildling raiders as a kid. The raiders were executed, but the Night's Watch kept Mance and raised him.



#15 Kennedy the Keen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:19 AM

Found this quote "
“ The Thenns have lords and laws ... They mine tin and copper for bronze, forge their own arms and armor instead of stealing it. A proud folk, and brave"

Jon say that to the karstark girl, alys.

although it doesn't really say they can read or write, they are a quite advanced society.

#16 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:25 AM

Found this quote "
“ The Thenns have lords and laws ... They mine tin and copper for bronze, forge their own arms and armor instead of stealing it. A proud folk, and brave"

Jon say that to the karstark girl, alys.

although it doesn't really say they can read or write, they are a quite advanced society.

 

Um no.

 

They use bronze.

 

They are not advanced.



#17 Bronn Urgundy

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:30 AM

Well, if I capture some kid and put a sword in his hand and tell him to go rangings, I'd want him to learn how to use the sword and the lay of the land, doubt Mance had too much time to learn letters, there aren't many people who can read on the wall as it is, and they're really busy.

 

As for the Pink Letter, please stop calling it fake, you're getting my hopes up :(


Edited by Bronn Urgandy, 01 February 2014 - 08:31 AM.


#18 Kennedy the Keen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:31 AM

Compared to the rest of the North they are more advanced. They have a system of laws and lords. They are of the Firstmen who used only bronze and the Thenns where so isolated from the rest of the world when the Andals came with more advanced forging. So the Thenns just continued with bronze.

Saying the they are not advanced because they use Bronze is like saying Westeros is not advanced for not using Valyrian steel.

#19 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:34 AM

Again, the Thenns have no contact to Andals that we know of. THey haven't learned to use iron or steel, knowledge that the Andals brought to Westeros. It's very unlikely that they would have learned to read and write, another technology brought by the Andals.



#20 Kennedy the Keen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:39 AM

Hmmm I may have answered my own question.
The Thenns are of the firstmen
-the Firstmen didn't read or write(to the best of my knowledge , they used Runes as a for of cuneiform.)
-The Thenns being rich in ancient traditions would probably not be able to read or write either(unless they picking up reading and writing when then learned the common tongue.)