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Would Cersei have believed that she had Ned as a pawn if she had seduced him?


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#1 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:44 PM

This is with respect to when Ned and Cersei have this conversation:

 

 

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."

The queen seemed amused by that. "Save your pity for yourself, Lord Stark. I want none of it."

"You know what I must do."

"Must?" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. "The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." Her hand touched his face, his hair. "If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it."

"Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?"

She slapped him.

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

 

She seems very confident of how strong her hold on men who sleep with her can be, although her only real experience of this seems to be Jaime. Of course Ned turned her down. However, if he hadn't, what would Cersei have done? Was this just a tactic to buy some time or would she have believed that he was firmly under her thumb now and hence useful to her?

 

Many argue that Ned was stupid not to have taken LF's advice or Renly's offer, but hardly any ever argue that he should have taken Cersei's offer. Why? 

 

(and Ned would wear what as a badge of honor? Are we really to believe that Cersei is so strong that her slap will leave a visiblemark on the face of a hardened warrior like Ned for any substantial length of time?)


Edited by Hajk, 01 February 2014 - 04:47 PM.


#2 Allyria Winterborn

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:48 PM

Cersei doesn't really trust anyone. She might have slept with Ned if she thought it would buy her some time, but sooner or later she would have still gotten either Ned or Robert killed to preserve her secret.



#3 Jory Cassel

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:52 PM

(and Ned would wear what as a badge of honor? Are we really to believe that Cersei is so strong that her slap will leave a visiblemark on the face of a hardened warrior like Ned for any substantial length of time?)

 

classic Ned joke. he satirically refers to Cersei calling the mark Robert left when slapping her "badge of honor".



#4 Mladen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:55 PM

She seems very confident of how strong her hold on men who sleep with her can be, although her only real experience of this seems to be Jaime.

 

And Robert, and Lancel... She is quite successful in controlling those she sleeps with.

 

Was this just a tactic to buy some time or would she have believed that he was firmly under her thumb now and hence useful to her?

 

I doubt that Cersei was ever serious... She just wanted to shake Ned more... I bet she knew just how futile her seduction is...

 

(and Ned would wear what as a badge of honor? Are we really to believe that Cersei is so strong that her slap will leave a visiblemark on the face of a hardened warrior like Ned for any substantial length of time?)

 

 

classic Ned joke. he satirically refers to Cersei calling the mark Robert left when slapping her "badge of honor".

 

This... Nothing more...



#5 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:55 PM

 

classic Ned joke. he satirically refers to Cersei calling the mark Robert left when slapping her "badge of honor".

Hmm...can't believe I missed that. That does make better sense. 



#6 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

Cersei doesn't really trust anyone. She might have slept with Ned if she thought it would buy her some time, but sooner or later she would have still gotten either Ned or Robert killed to preserve her secret.

On the contrary, to me it seems like she trusts all manner of untrustworthy characters (like Aurane Waters, Kettlebecks etc.). Given what we know of her acumen now, isn't it more likely that she would have vainly told herself that she had Ned firmly under her control now?



#7 Sordelor

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:02 PM

 

classic Ned joke. he satirically refers to Cersei calling the mark Robert left when slapping her "badge of honor".

 

 

This, probobly.



#8 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:04 PM

 

And Robert, and Lancel... She is quite successful in controlling those she sleeps with.

It seems to me that she didn't really control Robert so much by sex as by nagging etc. And he still had all manners of whores and bastards that certainly were an affront to her. Had the Lancel thing started that far back? 

 

I doubt that Cersei was ever serious... She just wanted to shake Ned more... I bet she knew just how futile her seduction is...

Would she? She seems very offended at his response for someone who was just doing this as a jape (and even attacks him for fathering a bastard right after and so not to behave like he was above this sort of thing).

 

 

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

 

Ned would not have taken her offer because that is the Neddy thing to do. But from her own actions later on and the inner view we get from her POV chapters, doesn't it seem like she actually meant this? 



#9 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:07 PM

I think Ned would rather have chosen a bed filled with scorpions, just as Oberyn would.

 

However, if Ned thought that he had to "take one for the team", he might best use it only to buy time for Sansa and Arya to escape the city by ship.

However, at the time she proposed it, I think he thought she'd consider fleeing the city (not that he was the one in more danger).


Edited by Pod The Impaler, 01 February 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#10 King Pellinore

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:13 PM

She certainly would have thought so at least at first.  She uses sex as a manipulating factor, always.  From Jaime to Robert and on to Taena she tries to seduce and control with her sexual favors.  She even gives Tyrion a little peek at her boobs to distract him. 



#11 Arrax

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:15 PM

By sleeping with her Ned would've have committed treason. This probably means that Ned could've never gone to Robert after that without sacrificing his life as well.

#12 Mladen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:17 PM

It seems to me that she didn't really control Robert so much by sex as by nagging etc. And he still had all manners of whores and bastards that certainly were an affront to her. Had the Lancel thing started that far back?

 

Cersei used as many weapons in her arsenal to control Robert. Perhaps he wasn't controlled by her looks, but she nonetheless controlled him, just as Jaime and Lancel. As for when her affair with Lancel started, IIRC, right after Robert's death. She was seducing him in order to poison Robert, but I think she had sex with him after Robert's death.

 

Would she? She seems very offended at his response for someone who was just doing this as a jape (and even attacks him for fathering a bastard right after and so not to behave like he was above this sort of thing).

 

Just like with Stannis, when she knows it is futile, she knows this interaction is. Nonetheless she tries, and her offenses is more because Ned showed her openly that a man can actually reject her.

 

Ned would not have taken her offer because that is the Neddy thing to do. But from her own actions later on and the inner view we get from her POV chapters, doesn't it seem like she actually meant this?

 

What actions? How she seduces Kettleblacks and try the same with Oberyn? Yes, that is her MO... But Cersei here had only one chance - to seduce him. That was all she could have done, no matter how futile it is.



#13 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:22 PM

She certainly would have thought so at least at first.  She uses sex as a manipulating factor, always.  From Jaime to Robert and on to Taena she tries to seduce and control with her sexual favors.  She even gives Tyrion a little peek at her boobs to distract him. 

Yes I think she does. The question is, what would have happened if Ned had actually taken her up on the offer?



#14 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

By sleeping with her Ned would've have committed treason. This probably means that Ned could've never gone to Robert after that without sacrificing his life as well.

But properly speaking, Ned would have been guilty of treason if he had taken Renly's offer as well. The only non-treasonous choice was the one he actually made (i.e. reject both in favor of Stannis). Yet he gets a lot of criticism for this (not from everyone, but from some). I wonder why no one thinks he should have taken Cersei's offer. In terms of treason they are both treason.



#15 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

I think Ned would rather have chosen a bed filled with scorpions, just as Oberyn would.

 

However, if Ned thought that he had to "take one for the team", he might best use it only to buy time for Sansa and Arya to escape the city by ship.

However, at the time she proposed it, I think he thought she'd consider fleeing the city (not that he was the one in more danger).

Well yes, he's not a Kettlebeck. But its not like she is unattractive or something... But the question is, what would Cersei have done if Ned had been vulnerable to her charms? Would she have thought that she had a reliable pawn now? Or would she still have tried to assassinate him at some point? 



#16 Hajk

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:31 PM

 

Cersei used as many weapons in her arsenal to control Robert. Perhaps he wasn't controlled by her looks, but she nonetheless controlled him, just as Jaime and Lancel. As for when her affair with Lancel started, IIRC, right after Robert's death. She was seducing him in order to poison Robert, but I think she had sex with him after Robert's death.

 

 

Just like with Stannis, when she knows it is futile, she knows this interaction is. Nonetheless she tries, and her offenses is more because Ned showed her openly that a man can actually reject her.

 

 

What actions? How she seduces Kettleblacks and try the same with Oberyn? Yes, that is her MO... But Cersei here had only one chance - to seduce him. That was all she could have done, no matter how futile it is.

I guess what we are trying to balance is Cersei's vanity against her understanding of other people. She certainly seems vain enough to believe that no man would really spurn her if she gave him the chance (with the exception of Stannis). Would she read Ned the same way? Or would she consider him more corruptible knowing that he has a bastard?



#17 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:33 PM

Well yes, he's not a Kettlebeck. But its not like she is unattractive or something... But the question is, what would Cersei have done if Ned had been vulnerable to her charms? Would she have thought that she had a reliable pawn now? Or would she still have tried to assassinate him at some point? 

 

 

Well, depending how convincing Ned could be, she might actually believe she'd successfully seduced him / gained some sort of advantage over him. She's arrogant enough to think she is that damn attractive, where every man (except gay Renly or joyless Stannis) would be enthralled.



#18 Ramsay's Third Nipple

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:34 PM

Well yes, he's not a Kettlebeck. But its not like she is unattractive or something... But the question is, what would Cersei have done if Ned had been vulnerable to her charms? Would she have thought that she had a reliable pawn now? Or would she still have tried to assassinate him at some point? 

 She would have blackmailed him to turn in his hand and leave for winterfell, or she'd tell Robert.

 

 

I assume.



#19 Mladen

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:35 PM

I guess what we are trying to balance is Cersei's vanity against her understanding of other people. She certainly seems vain enough to believe that no man would really spurn her if she gave him the chance (with the exception of Stannis). Would she read Ned the same way? Or would she consider him more corruptible knowing that he has a bastard?

 

I think she wanted to remind him of his corruptibility by remind him of his bastard son. Naturally, it didn't work, for Ned knows who Jon really is, and that wasn't the weakness she could have used. So, she tried to seduce him playing on a guilt card since she had no other. But at the same time, she knows who Ned is, and since they are in the position they are, I doubt she truly 100% believed he would fall for that.



#20 Arrax

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:38 PM

But properly speaking, Ned would have been guilty of treason if he had taken Renly's offer as well. The only non-treasonous choice was the one he actually made (i.e. reject both in favor of Stannis). Yet he gets a lot of criticism for this (not from everyone, but from some). I wonder why no one thinks he should have taken Cersei's offer. In terms of treason they are both treason.


Not quite. Cersei's offer came before Robert was hurt. Renly's offer came when Robert was about to die, and Renly offer wasn't treasonous. He simply offered Ned to secure his status as Protector, because he knew that a piece of paper would not do it.