Dany’s Burden

[Jalabhar's Ho]

Hey guys. I’ve been reading a lot of your posts on Daenerys and her story in Slaver’s Bay. There is a lot of surprising negativity, at least to me, and I’ve tried to keep an open mind about it all. I have an alternative position to post. Part of it stems from this thread about Dany being a force of change in the world. I think that’s on par but its missing a few aspects that I think we’re supposed to see.

I believe Dany’s fate in the world of Avalon (I think that’s the same Avalon from Dying of the Light, just way in the past) is about civilizing it. She has to power of dragons and with comes great responsibility. Just like Rudyard Kipling said in The White Man’s Burden, it’s up to the more civilized people to help the rest of the worl.

Daenerys must civilize the world so it can stand against the Others.

Ever since she got to Slaver’s Bay we’re shown just how horrible they are as a people. They’re barbaric, uncivilized, and lecherous. By getting rid of the upper classes of Astapor Dany provided a crucial step in saving the Ghiscari from themselves, but by leaving without seeing to things she inadvertently let the savageries start again. She made the same mistake in Yunkai but I don’t blame her for this. She was too swept away with being their Mhysa that she didn’t take care of things as she should have.

In Meereen, she makes the right choice but the people there are too stubborn and savage to come to the light. I believe her arc in Meereen and the Dothraki Sea is teaching her that to civilize this region she has to have an iron fist as a ruler. Which brings me to my next point,

It’s not just Slaver’s Bay she’s going to civilize, it’s also Volantis, other “free” cities that have slaves, and Westeros. When Dany lands in Westeros, her kingdom is going to be torn apart. It will be up to her, a Dragon finally come back to Westeros, to put everything back to order. I believe this is foreshadowed in Sansa’s Hymn.

"Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women,

help our daughters through this fray,

soothe the wrath and tame the fury,

teach us all a kinder way"

This song is about Daenerys, Mother of Dragons, Mhysa. She’s going to save Westeros from their petty squabbles and unite them against the cold.

All this is her burden. Basically, the future of the world rests on her shoulders.

[Panos Targaryen]

This is not gonna end well....

But I partially agree with you. I do believe Essos is a barbaric place, and Daenerys is their best hope to abandon the savagery of slavery, but I don't think Dany by herself can be the ultimate savior who will lead the world into the light. Her failures in Mereen and Yunkai show that.

[Sordelor]

So you think the entire world will ever be united to fight the others?

I doubt there's much one can do in a limited period of time to improve the situation in slaver's bay, besides killing everyone there.

Also this story is about morally grey characters, I doubt ASoIaF will have one hero that will solve everything. Nor Dany, nor Jon, nor any other character.

[Mladen]

hello, welcome to the boards... May you have nice and pleasant time here :cheers:

Now... I am sorry, but I am not buying it. Daenerys certainly is the changing factor in the Essos, shaking the bad systems and changing them. Her problem is maintaining the new systems she enforced. That of course can work in Essos, but Westeros is certainly different. Now, Danerys won't unite the kingdoms, for the Kingdoms are so separated in many ways, that by the time she comes, she will even bring new divisions and new wars...

As for Mother's symbolism, I think that Dany is truly giving new life to Essos, bringing new systems by destroying the others, changing it... But, as I said, that won't be enough for Westeros. These are not "petty squabbles" and I think that assessment is completely and undoubtedly wrong... She will never unite Seven Kingdoms, not unless she destroys the half of it... Daenerys' Mother symbolism is opposed by that AAR stories and general fire symbolism... So, above her being "agent of change" and mother of dragon title, I sincerely doubt she will ever be ruling in that way. Simply, Daenerys is Aegon the Conqueror not The Good Queen Alysanne.

[Northbound2.0]

And you lost me at "Dany must civilize the word, so it can stand against the Others."

She has no knowledge of the Others. The entire region of Essos, seems to know nothing about them. The fight against the Others at this point in time, is in Westeros; where currently, she is NOT and doesn't seem to be getting any closer to being so. Say she makes to Westeros midway through the next book; she will be in open war with several factions. I doubt most are going to welcome her with open arms and say "Hey, let's all unite and go kill the Ice Zombies!"

I'm not bashing her, so don't take it like that. I applaud her progressive stance on slavery, though I don't always agree with how she is trying to change the minds of those in Essos. But to say, she is the one who can civilize and unite the people of Westeros, in order to face the Others...is assuming a bit much.

[Jalabhar's Ho]

I don't think Dany by herself can be the ultimate savior who will lead the world into the light. Her failures in Mereen and Yunkai show that.

Oh I forgot! I meant to talk about how Dany herself would learn to be civilized on her journey! Whoops

[Sordelor]

Oh I forgot! I meant to talk about how Dany herself would learn to be civilized on her journey! Whoops

I'm sorry but by rereading your post I really didn't get that impression.

That can be possible anyway :)

[RoamingRonin]

“Perhaps I cannot make my people good," she told herself, "but I should at least try to make them a little less bad.”

[Light a wight tonight]

So far Dany's impact is mainly in Slavers' Bay, a small corner of Essos, and while she's caused disruption she hasn't had a lasting impact. She doesn't have the time or resources to bring continent-wide reform.

Kipling's "White Man's Burden" shows an incredibly Euro-centric philosophy in light of today's sensibilities. Harks back to the 18th and 19th Centuries, the days of the British Raj in India and the Empire Upon Which the Sun Never Sets. Not picking on England; the rest of Europe played the imperial game where they could, and others got into the game later (US of A nabbed Hawai'i and took the Philippines from Spain for example).

[Fire Eater]

So far Dany's impact is mainly in Slavers' Bay, a small corner of Essos, and while she's caused disruption she hasn't had a lasting impact. She doesn't have the time or resources to bring continent-wide reform.

Kipling's "White Man's Burden" shows an incredibly Euro-centric philosophy in light of today's sensibilities. Harks back to the 18th and 19th Centuries, the days of the British Raj in India and the Empire Upon Which the Sun Never Sets. Not picking on England; the rest of Europe played the imperial game where they could, and others got into the game later (US of A nabbed Hawai'i and took the Philippines from Spain for example).

Its philosophy could be best described as a cultural superiority complex. The European imperialists looked down on other peoples with disdain, thinking the world had everything to learn from them while the rest of the world had nothing to teach them, a pretty self-righteous attitude that Dany also displays.

In Meereen, she makes the right choice but the people there are too stubborn and savage to come to the light. I believe her arc in Meereen and the Dothraki Sea is teaching her that to civilize this region she has to have an iron fist as a ruler. Which brings me to my next point,

The Meereense and Yunkai'i see her in a similar light, a savage barbarian, given she performs a mass execution of prisoners after battle, plenty of whom probably didn't have anything to do with the children being nailed up.

It’s not just Slaver’s Bay she’s going to civilize, it’s also Volantis, other “free” cities that have slaves, and Westeros. When Dany lands in Westeros, her kingdom is going to be torn apart.

I thought Slaver's Bay and Volantis were civilizations? Slavery doesn't mean societies are uncivilized.

It will be up to her, a Dragon finally come back to Westeros, to put everything back to order. I believe this is foreshadowed in Sansa’s Hymn.

"Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women,

help our daughters through this fray,

soothe the wrath and tame the fury,

teach us all a kinder way"

This song is about Daenerys, Mother of Dragons, Mhysa. She’s going to save Westeros from their petty squabbles and unite them against the cold.

All this is her burden. Basically, the future of the world rests on her shoulders.

The lyrics of the song are referring to an end to war, while Dany is a Mother of Dragons, a Child of Storm, she creates chaos and destruction wherever she goes. Dany will be going to Westeros not bring peace, but to start the war of the second Dance of Dragons. Dany is a good conqueror, but a bad ruler and administrator as demonstrated in Meereen. The clues don't point to her sitting the IT, and healing Westeros. That clues point to someone else as the R+L=J threads show.

I agree with her stance on slavery, but she makes spur of the moment decisions without really thinking things through as with Astapor and Meereen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

At least someone has the balls to admit that Dany's exploits in Essos reek of ethnocentric colonialism. Where you lost me is in thinking that that's a good thing.

[Steelcan]

At least someone has the balls to admit that Dany's exploits in Essos reek of ethnocentric colonialism. Where you lost me is in thinking that that's a good thing.

Westeros has a few hundred years before they get into the Colonial game....

When that rolls around.....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Westeros has a few hundred years before they get into the Colonial game....

When that rolls around.....

I'm not talking about Westeros, I'm talking about Dany in Slaver's Bay. It does reek of ethnocentrism and "White Man's Burden," the OP is right. The issue is that such thinking is hardly a positive thing the way the OP suggests. Nor would I hold up a city-sacker, mass murderer and torturer as a paragon of civilized behavior.

[IRON BANK]

Hey guys. I’ve been reading a lot of your posts on Daenerys and her story in Slaver’s Bay. There is a lot of surprising negativity, at least to me, and I’ve tried to keep an open mind about it all. I have an alternative position to post. Part of it stems from this thread about Dany being a force of change in the world. I think that’s on par but its missing a few aspects that I think we’re supposed to see.

I believe Dany’s fate in the world of Avalon (I think that’s the same Avalon from Dying of the Light, just way in the past) is about civilizing it. She has to power of dragons and with comes great responsibility. Just like Rudyard Kipling said in The White Man’s Burden, it’s up to the more civilized people to help the rest of the worl.

Daenerys must civilize the world so it can stand against the Others.

Ever since she got to Slaver’s Bay we’re shown just how horrible they are as a people. They’re barbaric, uncivilized, and lecherous. By getting rid of the upper classes of Astapor Dany provided a crucial step in saving the Ghiscari from themselves, but by leaving without seeing to things she inadvertently let the savageries start again. She made the same mistake in Yunkai but I don’t blame her for this. She was too swept away with being their Mhysa that she didn’t take care of things as she should have.

In Meereen, she makes the right choice but the people there are too stubborn and savage to come to the light. I believe her arc in Meereen and the Dothraki Sea is teaching her that to civilize this region she has to have an iron fist as a ruler. Which brings me to my next point,

It’s not just Slaver’s Bay she’s going to civilize, it’s also Volantis, other “free” cities that have slaves, and Westeros. When Dany lands in Westeros, her kingdom is going to be torn apart. It will be up to her, a Dragon finally come back to Westeros, to put everything back to order. I believe this is foreshadowed in Sansa’s Hymn.

"Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women,

help our daughters through this fray,

soothe the wrath and tame the fury,

teach us all a kinder way"

This song is about Daenerys, Mother of Dragons, Mhysa. She’s going to save Westeros from their petty squabbles and unite them against the cold.

All this is her burden. Basically, the future of the world rests on her shoulders.

These actions will happen and much more. You are correct Dany will be more firm, this will be a turning point. Dany will more than likely burn cities and armies to the ground in the next book. Westeros is filled with petty squabbles which is perfect for the whole Essos storyline. When Dany comes to westeros her taking the place over will be all to easy.

[Steelcan]

I'm not talking about Westeros, I'm talking about Dany in Slaver's Bay. It does reek of ethnocentrism and "White Man's Burden," the OP is right. The issue is that such thinking is hardly a positive thing the way the OP suggests. Nor would I hold up a city-sacker, mass murderer and torturer as a paragon of civilized behavior.

I know what you were talking about, and Daenarys is a Westerosi.

I think this view point was defiantly played on in the show, however I'm not sold on it being intended as a message in the books. Regardless, Cultural relativism is a pipe dream and someone had to free the slaves.

Now we wait for the Ironborn to start colonizing, thats when you can get all preachy on the evils of colonialism

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know what you were talking about, and Daenarys is a Westerosi.

I think this view point was defiantly played on in the show, however I'm not sold on it being intended as a message in the books. Regardless, Cultural relativism is a pipe dream and someone had to free the slaves.

Now we wait for the Ironborn to start colonizing, thats when you can get all preachy on the evils of colonialism

I don't think the books are pro-colonialism. I think it's the exact opposite: Dany goes to Slaver's Bay to try to "civilize" their society and it backfires spectacularly. And I'd say there's plenty of "evils" to be found in Dany's brand of colonialism to get all "preachy" about, thanks.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

These actions will happen and much more. You are correct Dany will be more firm, this will be a turning point. Dany will more than likely burn cities and armies to the ground in the next book. Westeros is filled with petty squabbles which is perfect for the whole Essos storyline. When Dany comes to westeros her taking the place over will be all to easy.

The easier it looks like it will be, the harder it will actually be.

[Steelcan]

I don't think the books are pro-colonialism. I think it's the exact opposite: Dany goes to Slaver's Bay to try to "civilize" their society and it backfires spectacularly. And I'd say there's plenty of "evils" to be found in Dany's brand of colonialism to get all "preachy" about, thanks.

You aren't any fun, ya' know that right?

[IRON BANK]

I'm not talking about Westeros, I'm talking about Dany in Slaver's Bay. It does reek of ethnocentrism and "White Man's Burden," the OP is right. The issue is that such thinking is hardly a positive thing the way the OP suggests. Nor would I hold up a city-sacker, mass murderer and torturer as a paragon of civilized behavior.

Please white mans burden give me a break. The only people here, thinking like that are those who put the slavery in this world and try to fit it into the context of that which existed in the western world. They totally miss the fact that most of the major characters on that side of the world like Tyrion, Jorah, and penny are portrayed as white and were enslaved just as quickly. Meaning in that context their slavery is not even color based. Its based on a grab whoever basis, tattoo them and enslave them. Every major character on this side of the world who has used slaves either to sell or have sex, has had the tables turned on them now they are enslaved. this has been done for a reason so that they see the horrors first hand and will more than likely do something about it. This is the main reason why the Essos story line is mis understood it is sci fi fantasy it takes imagination and most people lack it. If you want historical fiction those series are available and a little easier to follow. Also every major society with in the world today at some point has had slavery as an institution. every one of them today that is worth anything has attempted or all together abolished the practice with good reason.

[MasterJack]

I think each society has to fight for his own freedom when it is ready for it to last in a good way. Servitude is part of human behavior that has his usefullness to wake men on his idea of bad/good happiness/sadness justice/wrong etc.

What I meant is you cant have an outsider showing up saying: This is bad That is good, that is freedom that is not, that is hapiness This is justice etc. They need to discover it themself and decide of their own morale otherwise everything is false and it is not freedom.