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He wasn't in season 3. And, while not determinative, if he was in the season he would most likely be with the Lannister family at the wedding, but from the clip of the front rows he isn't.

Logically he should have been in the background a few times, as was Lancel Lannister who also was not in season 3. But Ian Gelder and Eugene Simon have , I guess, contracts for speaking roles, which means more money , even if their speaking scenes were cut. Lord knows they keep writing scenes for Julian Glover that wind up as 'deleted scenes'!

So if the show follows the story Kevan Lannister has to become the Regent , tho I can't see them adding all the somewhat involved conflict with Cersei ... plus I guess they will have to have a Hand, it is Mace Tyrell in the books. So , I guess, we will see Ian Gelder back? I can't imagine who they would substitute for Regent , unless it's to keep Cersei, possible, and Roger Ashton-Griffiths as Mace in season 5...? ... are these details the viewer will care about?

For that matter Lancel vanished mysteriously in season 3 while having a small but prominent presence in S1 and S2... and by book 5 he is still around.

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This isn't about a lack of intricacies. They cut all the interaction between Dany/Jorah and left things as they stood from the second series on. Thats cutting a big chunk of the story out. It is not a lack of intricacies. I swear to god. Read ASOS. I don't have the patience to write out all Jorah/Dany interactions and the number of times she thinks of him.

You are selling his exile short. Jon, Tyrion and Dany all lose somebody very close to them which has a lasting impact on them. All of their relationships and conflicts with those characters were built up over multiple books. Tyrion met Shae and Tywin at the beginning and then kills them at the end of his story. Towards the end of his story Jon kills the love of his life Ygritte. Then Dany exiles Jorah at the end of her story who is someone she thought of as a brother and has been around since the beginning. This is not a bit event that should be rushed so that they can cram more shit ADWD material into the series. Thematically GRRM made these three and most of the main cast suffer profound losses at the end of ASOS. Hence, focusing on Danys interactions with Jorah when he is about to be kicked out of her group for at least one season and might very well end up dead and never able to see Dany again is important. Hes not going to be around for much longer. I don't know why you actively want them to cut most of that material out and quickly deal with this as a side issue. Much less that you and others laud D&D for this.

Also, for the 10th time. Jorahs feelings in this are not important. I do not care for him monologing to the audience about how he feels. Whats important is how Daenerys interacts with Jorah, his jealousy, his interest in her and her anger at him because of this. The show cut this. Ergo there is no story and they have not set this up. GRRM spent a good chunk of ASOS building up Jorahs exile. The show cannot cut that material and expect to deliver the same impact of him being exiled as is in the books. Clearly, their priority with Danys story is to cover as much of ADWD as possible. Danys season 4 is going to be an absolute unstructured mess with them chucking ADWD and invented material into whats meant to be her ending and epilogue in ASOS.

I did read ASOS. Many times. Digging up all of their conversations and moments when she thinks of him is not necessary.

The show is not the book.

There are many places where the program deviates significantly from the books. Internal thoughts are changed to a conversation, or it is translated into something visual like a cutaway to a character's expression or an exchange of looks, or countless other things. Because the books are doorstoppers, stuff, a LOT of stuff, simply gets cut out.

They cut out a big chunk of Jorah and Dany's book interactions because it's not important to the show.

GRRM is involved with the writing and advising how the show storylines go. D&D are especially fond of Iain Glen. If GRRM had thought those particular interactions between Jorah and Dany were important, D&D would have put them in there. They didn't because it's not. There is already enough there to tell the story of giving up going home for unrequited love, the betrayal by a trusted adviser, mentor, and friend, and the fallout of all of that.

I love Jorah. Even though he's a mess he's one of my favorite characters, but this is "Game of Thrones" not "The Jorah and Dany Show."

ETA: We don't know that some of those things won't happen. He could be banished late in the season so some of their discussions and arguments could still happen. That said, if they don't there is already enough there for an emotionally resonant banishment.

Also, what Khal-a-bunga said below. Excellent.

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The show is always going to have to find ways to externalize certain elements from the novels in a way that makes sense for a non-reader audience (i.e. the vast majority of the viewers), and with that in mind, it's easy to see how this coming season will be where a rift between Dany & Jorah will truly develop. Daario provides the writers with a valuable tool to do so, and there are any number of ways it can be dramatized. Perhaps Jorah will offer to fight the champion of Meereen, but Dany instead opts to have Daario fight him (for just one example). As a result, Jorah becomes ever more desperate to keep himself in the position he's had since the beginning of the show as Dany's closest confidant and adviser, pushing her to further distance herself from him.



That's just one example, and one possibility, out of the multitude of approaches the writers can take. Similar 'issues' have been brought up before regarding several of the characters in the show. Arya not killing anyone to leave Harrenhal meant that they weren't going to take her down the same dark path as the books; and yet, they had simply postponed this action to follow the Red Wedding, which makes more sense within the context - and due to the limitations inherent - of the television show. Tyrion has been 'white-washed' because he didn't threaten to rape anyone or have someone insignificant killed, despite the fact that his dark turn makes more sense to occur towards the end of the upcoming season. Even Stannis, who has had his internal conflict externalized (and heightened) through Davos & Melisandre, will likely make a turn for being an overall better person in the coming season (or early next season, since this change in his character didn't really occur until the end of A Storm of Swords, anyway).



It just seems to me that some readers suffer from a cognitive dissonance of sorts, where they can't possibly understand how things can still follow the books (approximately), because something from the books has been left out, postponed, or altered. Not saying that major changes haven't been made, or that they won't continue to, but it's a little odd to see so many people with so little imagination making assumptions that simply don't jive with how the show has been handled to this point in the series.


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The show is always going to have to find ways to externalize certain elements from the novels in a way that makes sense for a non-reader audience (i.e. the vast majority of the viewers), and with that in mind, it's easy to see how this coming season will be where a rift between Dany & Jorah will truly develop. Daario provides the writers with a valuable tool to do so, and there are any number of ways it can be dramatized. Perhaps Jorah will offer to fight the champion of Meereen, but Dany instead opts to have Daario fight him (for just one example). As a result, Jorah becomes ever more desperate to keep himself in the position he's had since the beginning of the show as Dany's closest confidant and adviser, pushing her to further distance herself from him.

That's just one example, and one possibility, out of the multitude of approaches the writers can take. Similar 'issues' have been brought up before regarding several of the characters in the show. Arya not killing anyone to leave Harrenhal meant that they weren't going to take her down the same dark path as the books; and yet, they had simply postponed this action to follow the Red Wedding, which makes more sense within the context - and due to the limitations inherent - of the television show. Tyrion has been 'white-washed' because he didn't threaten to rape anyone or have someone insignificant killed, despite the fact that his dark turn makes more sense to occur towards the end of the upcoming season. Even Stannis, who has had his internal conflict externalized (and heightened) through Davos & Melisandre, will likely make a turn for being an overall better person in the coming season (or early next season, since this change in his character didn't really occur until the end of A Storm of Swords, anyway).

It just seems to me that some readers suffer from a cognitive dissonance of sorts, where they can't possibly understand how things can still follow the books (approximately), because something from the books has been left out, postponed, or altered. Not saying that major changes haven't been made, or that they won't continue to, but it's a little odd to see so many people with so little imagination making assumptions that simply don't jive with how the show has been handled to this point in the series.

Well put.

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snip

I agree with you and it's because, and this probably an unpopular opinion, but Benioff and Weiss are not that great. They are overrated as hell and are so because they have a hit show that is watched by many people who never read the books. So as a result they are seen as god like when in reality their invented scenes and dialogue most times, come off as fan fiction that doesn't match the hallmark of the characters.

I don't begrudge them for inventing scenes. It's a normal part of any adaption and that's what this is. I know that, and I recognize that. What I begrudge them for is when they invent scenes that alter even slightly so, the character traits of one of the characters. There is no reason to do it, and yet I feel they do it based on their own personal opinions and likes/dislikes of a character, and when you do that, it's not any different than fan fiction.

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I agree with you and it's because, and this probably an unpopular opinion, but Benioff and Weiss are not that great. They are overrated as hell and are so because they have a hit show that is watched by many people who never read the books. So as a result they are seen as god like when in reality their invented scenes and dialogue most times, come off as fan fiction that doesn't match the hallmark of the characters.

I don't begrudge them for inventing scenes. It's a normal part of any adaption and that's what this is. I know that, and I recognize that. What I begrudge them for is when they invent scenes that alter even slightly so, the character traits of one of the characters. There is no reason to do it, and yet I feel they do it based on their own personal opinions and likes/dislikes of a character, and when you do that, it's not any different than fan fiction.

I agree. And I don't think it's an unpopular opinion at all. Characterization is essential to plot.

Also they don't just do what GRRM tells them, he says repeatedly, the show is the show and the books are the books.

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GRRM is involved with the writing and advising how the show storylines go. D&D are especially fond of Iain Glen. If GRRM had thought those particular interactions between Jorah and Dany were important, D&D would have put them in there.

As other say. George makes it plain that he does not that level of a role. He can suggest, he can inform, but it's D&D who decide. You don't know what importance George places on anything seen or not seen in the show, and so should not make the assumption that any particular thing -- any detail at all, omitted, changed, or transported whole into the show -- is done with his specific agreement/support/approval, short of him specifically saying in some interview that he agreed to or approved of some detail.

They consult him at times. They are free to dismiss his advice, and have done so in the past -- he's said as much -- and will continue to do so in the future. This means one cannot use the notion that "he's involved" to mean "concerns about this thing going against his vision must be wrong". Of course, contrariwise, our uncertainty about his views of how the show does things means one should not positively argue that he disapproves of some specific detail. Even, as an example, his repeatedly noting that Littlefinger on the show is "very different" from the character in the books doesn't necessarily carry a judgment to it. It's just a fact that he notes. Is he happy or unhappy that Littlefinger is so different? Only George truly knows. All we can do is speculate.

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I agree with you and it's because, and this probably an unpopular opinion, but Benioff and Weiss are not that great. They are overrated as hell and are so because they have a hit show that is watched by many people who never read the books. So as a result they are seen as god like when in reality their invented scenes and dialogue most times, come off as fan fiction that doesn't match the hallmark of the characters.

Book snobbism at its finest. "Benioff and Weiss are overrated" because most viewers haven't read the books which therefore makes D&D seem "godlike" in the eyes of the plebs. God forbid the wider audiences like the show because it is, I don't know, great TV. I guess that would be too simple a narrative. And as we all know, a good narrative needs a good villain, or even two in this case.

their invented scenes and dialogue most times, come off as fan fiction that doesn't match the hallmark of the characters

I'd argue the opposite. Oftentimes, the invented scenes work like a charm and are a great addition to the show -- various new scenes in Season 1. particularly the great Robert-Cersei convo on the state of their marriage; Tywin-Arya pairing in Season 2, an excellent, and somewhat different from the books, portrayal of Tyrells and the Lannister-Tyrell dynamics, etc. Of course, feel free to disagree.

Interesting you mention fanfiction. Maybe I'm in the minority, but my experience on these boards showed me that the greatest (unwitting) proponents of fanfiction are usually those that accuse the show of the same. The fervour of Stannis-lovers and the zeal of various shippers like SanSan or Jaime/Brienne (the people who are often the loudest in decrying D&D's "fanfiction") often behave as your garden-variety writer of fanfiction: blind, and even aggressive, to any different interpretation of story or character than the one they daydream about.

I don't begrudge them for inventing scenes. It's a normal part of any adaption and that's what this is. I know that, and I recognize that. What I begrudge them for is when they invent scenes that alter even slightly so, the character traits of one of the characters.

You say you don't begrudge the show for inventing scenes as it's normal, yet you begrudge it for altering character traits even slightly in those scenes. In my opinion, these two viewpoints are fundamentally opposed and can't be defended logically. Every scene, even in the books, changes ever so slightly a reader's understanding of a character. Good fictional characters live and breathe on the page and in the imagination of readers. Every chapter, every internal monologue or dialogue puts a new wrinkle on a character, his or her motivations, and our understanding of where that character comes from and where he's headed. The process of writing and reading a book is always fluent, giving us (and even the author himself) new insight and/or appreciation with every passing line and page.

Back to the show. Having the above in mind, it pays to understand that every single new scene in every single adaptation ever put to screen, will ALWAYS in some ways change the characters involved, objectively (as seen on the screen) and subjectively (filtered through the watcher's mind). We are essentially talking about the literary or artistic Uncertainty principle. Each and every occasion we shed some light on a previously established character will inevitably change the trajectory of that character by the mere process of us shedding that light in the first place. Therefore I find the claim that one can be supportive of invented material but against character changes either not well thought through or a disingenuous attempt to provide one's arguments with a veneer of unbiased objectivity.

There is no reason to do it, and yet I feel they do it based on their own personal opinions and likes/dislikes of a character

As opposed to what? Making an internet poll and using its results to construct the show and its characters? Every character is subject to interpretation. Just look at all the book-only wars between Catelyn supporters and Catelyn bashers, or Sansa pro et contra brigade, etc. Just as every single reader does it, so obviously D&D must trust their interpretation of events (among other production-related concerns) when adapting the books. It's well worth noting that objectivity as such can't be reached in this context. I'd say that all the talk about how D&D's preferences don't correspond with "objective reality of the books" quite often betrays the fact that it's not "objective reality" we're talking about but simple preferences of some fans. Again, if someone here veers dangerously close to (mental) fanfiction, it's those who are unable to accept that a different interpretation can be just as valid.

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I agree. And I don't think it's an unpopular opinion at all.

It is certainly not unpopular on this site, which is what makes wading through all of the relentless criticism (some of it legitimate, much of it not) and negativity so fatiguing.

I look forward to you telling me how this discussion relates to the new production designer video and belongs in this thread. Oh wait, I don't, because I'm not going to bother to read any of it.

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As other say. George makes it plain that he does not that level of a role. He can suggest, he can inform, but it's D&D who decide. You don't know what importance George places on anything seen or not seen in the show, and so should not make the assumption that any particular thing -- any detail at all, omitted, changed, or transported whole into the show -- is done with his specific agreement/support/approval, short of him specifically saying in some interview that he agreed to or approved of some detail.

They consult him at times. They are free to dismiss his advice, and have done so in the past -- he's said as much -- and will continue to do so in the future. This means one cannot use the notion that "he's involved" to mean "concerns about this thing going against his vision must be wrong". Of course, contrariwise, our uncertainty about his views of how the show does things means one should not positively argue that he disapproves of some specific detail. Even, as an example, his repeatedly noting that Littlefinger on the show is "very different" from the character in the books doesn't necessarily carry a judgment to it. It's just a fact that he notes. Is he happy or unhappy that Littlefinger is so different? Only George truly knows. All we can do is speculate.

Quite so.

As a reader I have not minded the inventions and condensations that a 10 episode season dictate. Plus to me , so far, GRRM's overall story plot is still in place.

Seems there was only one plot point that George insisted on.... D&D must have told him before season 2 where they wanted to take the RW... so Jeyne Westerling gets changed to Talisa Maegyr and a different story line. I can't remember D&D talking about it, but George sure did ... tho we only have the thin story that Talisa name was such as it was because of where she was from. Later we find out , from GRRM, that Jeyne Westerling will appear as a character in last two novels. If it's an important role then that's gonna be odd!

I may be misinterpreting , but seems George was apparently on set often in season 1, but since then seems to have disengaged.... well now of course , just as well, getting to need novel 6...

I think season 5 is going to be a bear to write , by this date I am guessing Dave, Dan, Bryan and George have it all figured out?

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He wasn't in season 3. And, while not determinative, if he was in the season he would most likely be with the Lannister family at the wedding, but from the clip of the front rows he isn't.

Yep, that's also what I thought when I saw the video. If Kevan would have been included in Season 4 he would be at the Wedding being Joffrey's greatuncle and at the same time Master of Law.

He is a trustful person towards Tyrion during the trial, even though he does not believe him and those scenes would have been perfect to reintroduce him because Season 4 has by far the least 'big' new characters arriving.

Yet, I haven't lost all my hope to get Kevan because in the trailer Tyrion says: 'I don't think I'm talking my way out of this one.' There're several possiblities of who he is talking to: It might be Oberyn who visits him. It might be Jaime (I wouldn't like that). It might be Varys. But yeah, it might also be Kevan.

I also wondered whether Kevan might appear after the Red Wedding. Maybe Tywin decides he needs more trusted men around and calls for Kevan.

I am aware that Kevan is a minor character, but he is a favorite minor-character for many and I don't think it would harm the show to even increase Kevan's importance, so his and Pycelle's death are more shocking and lead to the downfall of House Lannister more obvious as like all capable Lannister's are gone at that point.

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George was on set for only a couple of days during S1. I was there for one of those days.

George doesn't plan out the seasons at all. The main writers do. George is shown the treatment after the fact and shares his thoughts, and... that's it, maybe they take his advice, maybe they don't. But he's not sitting there in the writing room mapping out the whole of the season.

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I think the point was, GRRM doesn't figure it all out. He writes what they tell him to write.

I think the point was, GRRM doesn't figure it all out. He writes what they tell him to write.

I have never head GRRM say he takes his marching orders from Dave and Dan.

On the other hand I thought George had said during or after season 1 that he sat with D and D and helped outline the 10 episodes of , I guess he was given the choice of which one to write ... The Pointy End ... in this case.

Some how George , well it's his source material, does know the episodes or at least consults on them , I am guessing George picks the episode he wants to write...

In season 2 it was Blackwater, but in that case budget constraints caused some rewrite by D and D , plus some invention that apparently George was ok with.

We know he must have known about lay out of both season 2 and 3 because of the Talisa thing.

It's interesting that he had to, in season 3 , or I it's a guess he did some Riverlands stuff, of course he may not have written that part, this was The Bear and the Maiden Fair.

For season 4 it the 2nd episode and we have no title for that yet.

My feeling is that GRRM writes what he wants , knowing the season outline, and it's D and D (and maybe now Bryan) who modify it.

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Yep, that's also what I thought when I saw the video. If Kevan would have been included in Season 4 he would be at the Wedding being Joffrey's greatuncle and at the same time Master of Law.

He is a trustful person towards Tyrion during the trial, even though he does not believe him and those scenes would have been perfect to reintroduce him because Season 4 has by far the least 'big' new characters arriving.

Yet, I haven't lost all my hope to get Kevan because in the trailer Tyrion says: 'I don't think I'm talking my way out of this one.' There're several possiblities of who he is talking to: It might be Oberyn who visits him. It might be Jaime (I wouldn't like that). It might be Varys. But yeah, it might also be Kevan.

I also wondered whether Kevan might appear after the Red Wedding. Maybe Tywin decides he needs more trusted men around and calls for Kevan.

I am aware that Kevan is a minor character, but he is a favorite minor-character for many and I don't think it would harm the show to even increase Kevan's importance, so his and Pycelle's death are more shocking and lead to the downfall of House Lannister more obvious as like all capable Lannister's are gone at that point.

I forgot to say this:

In this picture the head I red-edged appears to be grey-haired: http://prntscr.com/2qdx70

While in this picture there're only brown-haired women: http://prntscr.com/2qdxqj

Maybe it's just the camera angle, but yeah, who knows.

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I have never head GRRM say he takes his marching orders from Dave and Dan.

Benioff and Weiss are the showrunners. They decide, they tell him what to write, he writes, they either accept or make changes.

"The novels are novels, the TV series is the TV series. They're two different beasts... ultimately that's their baby and the books are my baby... I don't have any veto power. I signed a pretty standard contract where I gave them the rights to adapt this into a television series, and I got certain titles, and the agreement I'd write one script a year, and a large dump truck full of money. And they can have the aliens come down next season, they can turn the whole cast into vampires, and I'm powerless to stop them. But I don't think they will do that... If you are J.K. Rowling, you can go into a situation where every studio in Hollywood wants you and you can set very stringent terms where you get to approve everything. But if you' re not J.K. Rowling, and virtually nobody is J.K. Rowling except J.K. Rowling, then you can't do that."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko

Another:

AC: What are the challenges of translating your own work into TV, as opposed to writing stories directly for TV?

GM: Well, I only do one script a season, so I basically work from the script they come up with.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/books/2013-08-29/lonestarcon-3-the-george-r-r-martin-interview/

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I forgot to say this:

In this picture the head I red-edged appears to be grey-haired: http://prntscr.com/2qdx70

While in this picture there're only brown-haired women: http://prntscr.com/2qdxqj

Maybe it's just the camera angle, but yeah, who knows.

Lol sorry, for posting once again, but the instagram video has just been released and I took another screenshot from it.

http://prntscr.com/2qe5yu

Now, it seems like it is Tommen standing next to Cersei and I cannot spot anyone who looks like Kevan.

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I am really amused by how much some posters seem to be obsessed about Kevan Lannister. To me, he lifts right out of the story fairly easily with his actions taken on by more established characters but they have included him in as much as he's been sitting around in the background of a few scenes over the first few seasons so he might do some stuff later on.



But really, he's a glorified extra at this point.



I am willing to bet anyone here a substantial amount of internet dollars that his role in counseling Tyrion after his arrest and through the trial will be taken up by Jaime.


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