[BOOK SPOILERS] Stannis in the show

[Rashtibram]

I realize this topic can get out of hand quite fast, but am I the only one who thinks they've represented Stannis quite accurately in the show? The only moment where I felt they weren't doing the character justice was in 3x10, after Gendry's escape. Otherwise, I think they've captured the sense I got from his character in the first 2.5 books perfectly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but was anyone really a "Stan-stan" before he saved the Wall at the end of book 3? From his first chapter (the prologue to ACOK), I thought he came off as petty, arrogant, ruthless and power-hungry, and without the advantage of a POV he never really shook that first impression until his Castle Black rescue. The only good things we ever heard about him came from Davos' hero-worshipping perspective, and even through his lenses I thought he came off as an antagonistic character. While Jon has a sort of respect for Stannis as a battle commander, generally his attitude to him and his entourage is wary, distrusting and hostile. Everyone else who meets him describes him as harsh, unpleasant, and dogmatic to the point where he is unwilling to listen to reason. In the show, most of his interactions have been very accurate to the book, and his scenes in 3x05 gave him a deeper character even than the book outlined. In seasons 1 and 2, I'm surprised more Jaime fans didn't complain about how he was treated as a character; it seems to me to be similar to how Stannis is currently being handled.

[The Giver]

I agree that the changes haven't been that drastic, but I do like Stannis, so I'm hoping they are going to keep his good stuff as soon as he gets to the wall. Viewers can then decide for themselves if they like him. It just worries me that they'll continue to make him look bad even after he gets there. (Which is where I disagree with you. Just like Jaime starts to change in book 3, Stannis also begins to change).

[apovsic]

The thing that bothers me is that in the show he seem to be only a puppet of Mel. It seems that she makes all the decisions (and lets not forget the scene when she leaves for Gendry, Stan is pictured like horny teenager). In the books he was stronger, if not more popular, character (until the Wall).

[Queen of Whores]

The only times I really didn't like what was happening with him was 3x3 and 3x10. Other than that he has been alright. Not as good as book!Stannis, but not that bad either. His scenes with Selyse and Shireen in 3x5 gave in a hugely needed human side that the book already showed with his story of Proudwing to Davos. I really didn't like that he was still going to kill Davos even after he read the letter though. That was a pretty drastic change. Mel's influence on him is too much, indeed. Hopefully this stops when he goes on his death march to Winterfell and she isn't with him. All of his scenes without her portray him much better. I'd even be happy with the season 2 Stannis; rude and cold but badass and determined as well. I wanna see lines like "...thousands." again.

[~DarkHorse~]

I don't think they've captured enough of his dry humour and Melisandre is the main character for 'Team Dragonstone' on the TV show, not Stannis.

[aFeastForDragons]

In the show Mel has way to much influence over Stan and she basically says that he has to go North instead of it being solely Davos's idea. They even left out the line where he threatens her with a horrible death if her vision is wrong since he doesn't trust her after losing the battle. Also having him constantly side with her over Davos is a notable change.

In Season 2 he was awesome, especially in the Battle of Blackwater episode. The histories & lore videos are much truer to his character aswell.

[franko99]

In the show Mel has way to much influence over Stan and she basically says that he has to go North instead of it being solely Davos's idea. They even left out the line where he threatens her with a horrible death if her vision is wrong since he doesn't trust her after losing the battle. Also having him constantly side with her over Davos is a notable change.

In Season 2 he was awesome, especially in the Battle of Blackwater episode. The histories & lore videos are much truer to his character aswell.

They left that out, but they did have Stannis strangling her in 2x10 right after Blackwater.

That being said I do think Stannis adaptation for the show has been terrible, hope that will change next season, and he actually look like book Stannis by season 5 (a man can dream)

[Konradsmith]

DarkHorse, I think that there's a chance that Melisandre might actually be the most important Dragonstone character in the books as well. Davos and Stannis will surely have their parts to play but now that Mel's at the Wall...

[Iona]

Stannis ordering Davos' execution and then getting walked all over by Mel is something I didn't particularly like, but I might be able to live with it. But - having Stan drooling on Mel's ear and trying to get under her skirts was completely unacceptable. It's a total deviation from book!Stannis, who totally would not resort to begging for booty. He would have more likely told Mel that she must do her duty and ordered her to lie down on the map table. :P

Stannis is, to some extent, Mel's tool in the books, but I feel they've gone way overboard with that aspect in the show. I like the fact that they did make Stannis go down to the cells and talk to Davos to hint that perhaps Stan was not totally OK with sacrificing Gendry, and that scene with Shireen was adorable. However, the pickled fetuses were creepy, and they make it seem that Stan and Sel either had a really good success rate when it came to impregnation or had way more action in the marriage bed than I think they do in the books... :P

[Synthetic CDO Love]

As the show has time constraints compared to the books and the show writers are more beat-you-over-the-head and less subtle than GRRM, maybe the show writers figure they have to clearly show Stannis' dependence on Mel. In bold, with searchlights, else watchers who haven't read the books will miss it. I suspect they are doing this because they want it to be clear how much of a betrayal it will be for Stannis when he thinks Mel has turned on him later (maybe because

she starts believing in Jon as the Messiah, or because he learns of her involvement in the Mance mission and isn't happy, or Mel does something with his kin on the wall, or his perspective turns a bit more and he decides "fuck R'holler".)

.

I am definitely a fan of the actor playing him though; thought he did a fantastic job playing Jefferson in "John Adams", and think he is sufficiently grim and stoic here. When he's given those choice Stannis lines from the book, he hits them out of the park every time. If they don't give him the "cart before the horse" line in this season I will be so disappointed though; for me it represents what makes Stannis worthy of being on the throne. He doesn't want the throne for ambitions sake and he recognizes it will probably kill him, but there is a threat to Westeros and he is doing what he feels he has to do to save it.

[The Drunkard]

I think Stannis is far too impressionable on the show, and too attached to the red religion.

Burning anyone that speaks against Melisandre isn't something book-Stannis would do. Book-Stannis wasn't punishing people for worshipping different religions, nor for speaking against Melisandre. Salla was doing it openly, the Bastard of Nightsong was renowned for his fervent Seven worship, and Stannis laughed at Melisandre when Davos made the 'two is not three' jab.

Then there's Gendry/Edric. Show-Stannis intended to sacrifice Gendry the moment he arrived. It fell to Davos to convince show-Stannis to even test Melisandre's claims. Then, after Robb, show-Stannis was convinced. Book-Stannis initially refused, until he tested Melisandre, which took all three kings (and until that happened he wasn't buying it), and then he decided on it. Which, mind you, was after being told other avenues wouldn't work, as he wanted to send pardons and thought they "must" send for him after Joffrey's death. Melisandre had to work to convince book-Stannis to break his code, show-Stannis didn't seem to have one.

The final scene seemed an odd change as well. I doubt anyone got the impression Stannis was deadset on executing Davos until Melisandre told him not to. That 'cart before the horse' line is soured, now.

Anyway, they were my major complaints, these are some minor ones:

- They cut almost all of his good monologues whilst giving screentime to Pod and his sexcapades.

- They cut the vision of his own burning to death, which I feel is quite significant. He feels that his crown is going to cost his own life, possibly by a literal burning, and is therefore ready to make the same sacrifice he's about to force on Edric.

- The two times show-Stannis reaches out and actually touches someone, it's to choke Melisandre to death, or to dry hump her in front of his soldiers. The two times book-Stannis reaches out and actually touches someone, it's to raise Davos up after promoting him, and put a hand on Jon's shoulder after offering him Winterfell. Not major, but these were nice touches lost in the show.

- Book-Stannis laughs at Davos' honesty, and the joke he made at Melisandre's expense. Show-Stannis laughs when Davos is forced to serve a god he doesn't worship. The latter's sense of humour is petty and cruel, the former's is not.

All that to say, no, I don't think they did a very good job with him, but if you've enjoyed it good luck to you. I'm hoping it's a bringing him to lower lows so his highs seem higher type deal, but I would much prefer more book accuracy.

[Miodrag]

In the books, Stannis has a very strong opinion about gods, which we get very early on, in the second chapter in which he appears (Proudwings story in Davos I), even though he witnessed (and later benefited from) the actions of at least one god, whose influence is practically Stannis' special weapon, something that other pretenders (besides Dany, who's still not involved in the Westeros war) neither posses nor can match. Therefore, his ambiguous attitude towards deities is essential for the readers' understanding of Stannis; not liking or hating, but understanding. Also, book-Mel is a highly attractive lady who, in fact, isn't attracting men, but scarring the living hell out of them; she's constantly described as a Westeros equivalent of a MILF, and yet, readers never witness anyone even expressing a lust for her, let alone hitting on her or something.

In the show, Stannis, as I recall, never spoken about gods or religions. On the other hand, TV-Mel doesn't seem to frighten anyone, other than Gendri in that nonsensical 03x08 scene (and Sallador to a certain extent), but she constantly inspires men to talk and think about her sexually (Renly at the parlay, Davos responding with silence on her "You want me" while she smuggles her to the shore, Anguy and Gendri when she comes to the BwB, Gendri and Davos when Gendri tells him about the leeches incident, and not to mention peculiar influence she has on Stannis). TV-Mel looks like someone who's unable to achieve anything with anyone unless she can seduce them with either sex or gold.

So: the whole aspect of religion, to which Stannis' arc is crucial, is almost entirely omitted from the show; one of the defining characteristics of Stannis, his willingness to use the gods in his quest but not to follow them blindly nor trust them even if their power is evident to him, is also omitted from the show; and his unique counselor/weapon/weakness - Melisandre - is portrayed very differently in the show. All of which means that, regardless of liking or disliking Stannis in either medium, book-Stannis and TV-Stannis have very, very little in common.

[King Tommen]

In the books, Stannis has a very strong opinion about gods, which we get very early on, in the second chapter in which he appears (Proudwings story in Davos I), even though he witnessed (and later benefited from) the actions of at least one god, whose influence is practically Stannis' special weapon, something that other pretenders (besides Dany, who's still not involved in the Westeros war) neither posses nor can match. Therefore, his ambiguous attitude towards deities is essential for the readers' understanding of Stannis; not liking or hating, but understanding. Also, book-Mel is a highly attractive lady who, in fact, isn't attracting men, but scarring the living hell out of them; she's constantly described as a Westeros equivalent of a MILF, and yet, readers never witness anyone even expressing a lust for her, let alone hitting on her or something.

In the show, Stannis, as I recall, never spoken about gods or religions. On the other hand, TV-Mel doesn't seem to frighten anyone, other than Gendri in that nonsensical 03x08 scene (and Sallador to a certain extent), but she constantly inspires men to talk and think about her sexually (Renly at the parlay, Davos responding with silence on her "You want me" while she smuggles her to the shore, Anguy and Gendri when she comes to the BwB, Gendri and Davos when Gendri tells him about the leeches incident, and not to mention peculiar influence she has on Stannis). TV-Mel looks like someone who's unable to achieve anything with anyone unless she can seduce them with either sex or gold.

So: the whole aspect of religion, to which Stannis' arc is crucial, is almost entirely omitted from the show; one of the defining characteristics of Stannis, his willingness to use the gods in his quest but not to follow them blindly nor trust them even if their power is evident to him, is also omitted from the show; and his unique counselor/weapon/weakness - Melisandre - is portrayed very differently in the show. All of which means that, regardless of liking or disliking Stannis in either medium, book-Stannis and TV-Stannis have very, very little in common.

Excellent misreading of the show on about 5-6 different fronts. Kudos.

[Miodrag]

Excellent misreading of the show on about 5-6 different fronts. Kudos.

Care to elaborate? I'm all ears. Kudos in advance.

[~DarkHorse~]

DarkHorse, I think that there's a chance that Melisandre might actually be the most important Dragonstone character in the books as well. Davos and Stannis will surely have their parts to play but now that Mel's at the Wall...

True, she might hold the most influence in the story but Stannis is the rightful King (making him important) and he usually tops Mel in his scenes. Also, the best Stannis scenes on the show are the ones Mel aren't in- Stannis and Shireen, Stannis and Davos and Stannis during Blackwater Bay. When she enters the scene he becomes her puppet and looks weak.

I see Stannis as being Just, dutiful, stubborn and dry humoured (all things I admire about him). However, in the TV show he's Mel's Tyrannical puppet.

[DaveyJoe]

I'm a big Stannis supporter in the books and I think any accusations of character assassination are good old fashioned hyperbole. I see a lot of that on these forums. Readers tend to let knowledge of all 5 books cloud their judgment of characters at the beginning of their arc in the first three seasons.

[Antler's Fury]

I actually didn't have that much of a problem with Stannis' overt sexual interest in Melisandre. Considering that we mostly see things from Davos' perspective in the books at this point, the writers naturally have to get creative when they want to show Stannis' private life with Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen, etc., things that even Davos would not have access to. After all, we know that Stannis is attracted to Melisandre, which is where the shadow assassins come from. It seems natural to me that Stannis would be particularly attached to Melisandre after Blackwater. She's the only real asset he has left at that point, and his failure to take her with him to the battle may have lost it for him. Unlike most Stannis fans who criticized the interactions between Davos, Stannis, and Melisandre after Gendry's escape in 3x10, I actually like some parts of it. For instance, like in the book, Stannis seems more exhausted than truly angry at Davos' letting Gendry go, and when Davos wants to tell him about the letter, it is Stannis who insists on listening to him against Melisandre's protests. It's important to remember that this entire scene is invented; the books don't show us Stannis' reaction, so he could well have still wanted to kill Davos after Davos read the latter (he drew his sword, after all) and spared Davos at Melisandre's behest. We do know that even in the books, it is Melisandre who wanted Stannis to spare Davos when Axell Florent wanted to kill him. That said, the show really needs to include Stannis' line about saving the realm to win the kingdom in order to prove that Davos' words still mean something to Stannis, and that Melisandre has not completely dominated him.

What I did have a problem with, however, is the show's implications about Melisandre's behavior prior to Davos' arrival at Dragonstone. In the books, when Salladhor tells him that Melisandre is burning traitors alive, Davos surmises that the people she's burning are Lord Sunglass and the sons of Lord Rambton, people who had already committed crimes that warranted the death penalty. This is very significant, because it means that Stannis only burns guilty people who would need to be put to death in some fashion or another; he does not burn the innocent, which is why he is so conflicted over burning Edric. However, in the show, it would appear that Melisandre is simply burning infidels for the crime of not worshiping Rh'llor. The problem with this is that it means that Stannis is already tacitly accepting the burning of innocent people, which essentially weakens the impact of his dilemma over sacrificing Gendry. It shows that Stannis is already willing to kill innocent people, limiting the conflict to whether or not he's willing to hurt his own blood. A very important part of Stannis' character is that he sees his duty as a lord and later as a king as protecting the innocent, whether it is from Aerys' madness, Balon's delusions of grandeur, Godric Borrell's laziness and greed, or the wildlings' rapacity. To be fair, the show does mention this with his awesome "They have made my realm bleed" quote, but still, having him tacitly approve of killing people for worshiping the wrong god is very much out of character, especially seeing as the show ignores the King's Men/Queen's Men diversity that Stannis allows. I sincerely hope that the people who Stannis is shown burning at Dragonstone in Season 4 are actual traitors or criminals, and not innocent people.

[Nezzer]

What I did have a problem with, however, is the show's implications about Melisandre's behavior prior to Davos' arrival at Dragonstone. In the books, when Salladhor tells him that Melisandre is burning traitors alive, Davos surmises that the people she's burning are Lord Sunglass and the sons of Lord Rambton, people who had already committed crimes that warranted the death penalty. This is very significant, because it means that Stannis only burns guilty people who would need to be put to death in some fashion or another; he does not burn the innocent, which is why he is so conflicted over burning Edric. However, in the show, it would appear that Melisandre is simply burning infidels for the crime of not worshiping Rh'llor. The problem with this is that it means that Stannis is already tacitly accepting the burning of innocent people, which essentially weakens the impact of his dilemma over sacrificing Gendry. It shows that Stannis is already willing to kill innocent people, limiting the conflict to whether or not he's willing to hurt his own blood. A very important part of Stannis' character is that he sees his duty as a lord and later as a king as protecting the innocent, whether it is from Aerys' madness, Balon's delusions of grandeur, Godric Borrell's laziness and greed, or the wildlings' rapacity. To be fair, the show does mention this with his awesome "They have made my realm bleed" quote, but still, having him tacitly approve of killing people for worshiping the wrong god is very much out of character, especially seeing as the show ignores the King's Men/Queen's Men diversity that Stannis allows. I sincerely hope that the people who Stannis is shown burning at Dragonstone in Season 4 are actual traitors or criminals, and not innocent people.

To be fair, Rambton and his sons were trying to protect the sept of Dragonstone from being burned, and Sunglass just refused to support Stannis anymore after the sept was burned. It's not like Alester Florent, who wanted to kidnap Shireen and send her to KL. It's was Selyse who ordered those burnings, though, but Stannis doesn't really worry about it. In the books he never commands any burnings, he just gives his followers the freedom to burn people. In the show it never says that it's him who orders the burnings, either.

[The Drunkard]

In the books he never commands any burnings, he just gives his followers the freedom to burn people. In the show it never says that it's him who orders the burnings, either.

He never gives his followers 'freedom' to burn people, and certainly not for speaking against Melisandre.

The show may not explicitly say he ordered the burnings, but they began as soon as he returned to Dragonstone, which isn't at all how it happened in the books.

This is very significant, because it means that Stannis only burns guilty people who would need to be put to death in some fashion or another; he does not burn the innocent, which is why he is so conflicted over burning Edric. However, in the show, it would appear that Melisandre is simply burning infidels for the crime of not worshiping Rh'llor. The problem with this is that it means that Stannis is already tacitly accepting the burning of innocent people, which essentially weakens the impact of his dilemma over sacrificing Gendry. It shows that Stannis is already willing to kill innocent people, limiting the conflict to whether or not he's willing to hurt his own blood. A very important part of Stannis' character is that he sees his duty as a lord and later as a king as protecting the innocent, whether it is from Aerys' madness, Balon's delusions of grandeur, Godric Borrell's laziness and greed, or the wildlings' rapacity. To be fair, the show does mention this with his awesome "They have made my realm bleed" quote, but still, having him tacitly approve of killing people for worshiping the wrong god is very much out of character, especially seeing as the show ignores the King's Men/Queen's Men diversity that Stannis allows.

That's a very good point. What gets me most about it is it seems like such a pointless change. It was two lines of dialogue that didn't lead anywhere, they weren't necessary, yet their significance is quite major.

[Jennilynn]

Stephen Dillane really brings Stannis to life, he is a wonderful actor and I love this story arc. He changes from being Roberts neglected brother, to a R'hilor convert and then sends his men to the wall. That being said he seems overly influenced by Melisandre on the show. I would like to see him stand his own ground in the next season and HOPEFULLY become that crazy grey character I am so fond of. I am really looking forward to seeing the tension between Stannis and Jon, I hope HBO does it justice.