Arrow 3: The Marginalization of Laurel Continues...Season 2 Spoilers

[MisterOJ]

That's why Caity Lotz is so awesome. She has legitimate training in martial arts and parkour.

So was that actually her doing the salmon ladder on last night's episode? Because if it was, then the director did her a huge disservice, because I couldn't tell and figured it was some stunt person, because it wasn't clear if it was her or not.

[Mexal]

So was that actually her doing the salmon ladder on last night's episode? Because if it was, then the director did her a huge disservice, because I couldn't tell and figured it was some stunt person, because it wasn't clear if it was her or not.

It's hard to tell since most of the shots are from the side/behind and she has blond hair that swings as she does it, but after re-watching it, I'm almost 100% sure it's her. I thought I caught a shot of her chin which is very distinctive. Then when you see her hit the ground and see how ripped she is, I have very little doubts.

[Jon AS]

Apparently she did a couple of rungs, then her stuntdouble did the rest.

[Mexal]

Apparently she did a couple of rungs, then her stuntdouble did the rest.

Never mind then. Cool that she did the first two though.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think that The League of Assassins will be saved for later seasons, with this one focusing on Deathstroke and possibly Merlyn.

[Mexal]

I think that The League of Assassins will be saved for later seasons, with this one focusing on Deathstroke and possibly Merlyn.

Maybe the conclusion of their story but because of Sara and Merlyn, they're a big part of the 2nd half of this season. The producers have said so.

[Jaxom 1974]

Sara's death is the catalyst for Laurel's big change?

Though she'll also be vindicated by Blood revealing himself as evil. We know she ends up being Black Canary eventually, barring the showrunner totally surprising us with her death.

In a weird feeling of real life sympathy, at least training to be Black Canary would demand Cassidy put on more weight.

I just don't see why Sara has to be the one who dies. To save Laurel? Sara had continued to be the more interesting character, and it no linger matters to me who is Black Canary on the show.

[Bastard of Boston]

I definitely agree that -- as much as Laurel's reactions in this episode might turn people off -- it's actually a realistic portrayal of the character. It's like how you might have an intense disdain for a family member, but when you find out the family member is dead, you still experience the remorse. Laurel thought Sara was dead. Now that Sara is alive, the dynamic changes. She's not the dead sister anymore and Laurel is allowed to be pissed off. She's allowed to be upset over the fact that her sister was banging her boyfriend.

Even though we all like Sara's character, that shouldn't translate to every character having to like Sara, as it makes story sense that Laurel would not be as accepting over Sara's reappearance. Especially since Laurel isn't exactly in the best head space.

And, as Mex said, it's pretty standard that the woman scorned is more likely to blame the sister over the boyfriend.

As much as Laurel has become a source of irritation with fans, I don't find any of her reactions to be unrealistic. I actually think much of the disdain for her character is over the fact that she's written as deeply flawed on a show where not too many other characters have the same "human" personality flaws.

I definitely don't think Laurel is in any danger of being killed off. The producers have a plan with her...or, at least that's how they're making it seem in all of their interviews. "Patience" is their favorite buzz word when it comes to Laurel.

[Jon AS]

As much as Laurel has become a source of irritation with fans, I don't find any of her reactions to be unrealistic. I actually think much of the disdain for her character is over the fact that she's written as deeply flawed on a show where not too many other characters have the same "human" personality flaws.

Err, are we watching the same show? Felicity is pretty much the least flawed of all the characters, everybody else has shown massive character flaws. Just as an example, Oliver's hypocrisy is on full display in this very episode when he condemns his mother for keeping secrets from the rest of the family. That's our hero, flawless paragon of virtue!

The problem with Laurel is that at this point she is nothing but flaws. She's an entitled, self-centered, judgemental person without the tiniest bit of warmth or compassion.

She doesn't have to welcome Sara back with open arms, but there's a lot of room between doing that and throwing a wineglass at her as she flees before her sister's wrath.

I definitely don't think Laurel is in any danger of being killed off. The producers have a plan with her...or, at least that's how they're making it seem in all of their interviews. "Patience" is their favorite buzz word when it comes to Laurel.

I think people have pretty much run out of patience with the character. They've given us no indication that she's going to improve, leave alone how.

[Jaxom 1974]

Patience for Laurel had run out... :p

And I don't disagree that her reaction wasn't realistic, but add I indicated, to me, it served to marginalize her, rather than expand her character.

[Bastard of Boston]

Err, are we watching the same show? Felicity is pretty much the least flawed of all the characters, everybody else has shown massive character flaws. Just as an example, Oliver's hypocrisy is on full display in this very episode when he condemns his mother for keeping secrets from the rest of the family. That's our hero, flawless paragon of virtue!

I don't see it as the same thing. Ollie's secret is a pillar of superheroism. The secret identity. Nobody would fault Ollie for keeping the secrets he keeps while he shits on others for keeping secrets. Ollie is self-righteous, but that's not something that's intentional, IMO...or, at least, that's not something I see as an intentional character flaw. It's something we notice, but I doubt the writers are aware of it.

One of my biggest problems with season one was the Huntress arc. Ollie preached restraint to Helena, but exercised none of his own...and he was never called on it. It was a glaring plot hole. Any flaws inherent with Ollie aren't conscious decisions on the writers' part, IMO. We view them as flaws, but there's no layers behind them.

Moira, to me, is the only character who is intentionally written as ambiguous, but she's written in such a way as to be more enigmatic than flawed.

When I speak of flaws, I mean the types of flaws intentionally woven into a character in such a way that doesn't pander to fans. When I say Laurel is one of the only characters I notice as being written as extremely flawed, I mean the writers are taking a protagonist and showing the ugly. I doubt the writers would ever attempt to show Ollie in a way which would deliberately make him disalikeable. When we see him cheating with Sara, it's only to showcase how far he's come in the present, not to make you dislike him.

[Sci-2]

I actually thought Felicity's "I have to tell Ollie about this secret that could ruin Thea's life because I want his cock inside me!" bullshit dragged her below a lot of characters.

She was at the top, now I'd put her at the level of druggy Thea from S1. Even Laurel has more legitimate reasons for her actions.

[Jon AS]

I don't see it as the same thing. Ollie's secret is a pillar of superheroism. The secret identity. Nobody would fault Ollie for keeping the secrets he keeps while he shits on others for keeping secrets. Ollie is self-righteous, but that's not something that's intentional, IMO...or, at least, that's not something I see as an intentional character flaw. It's something we notice, but I doubt the writers are aware of it.

Except the show had Diggle and Felicity repeatedly call out Ollie over his secrets (for example when Sara and the Mirakuru first showed up) and unilateral decision making. Oliver's most important character development in the present time line has usually come hand in hand with him apologising to either of his other two team members for fucking up.

When I speak of flaws, I mean the types of flaws intentionally woven into a character in such a way that doesn't pander to fans. When I say Laurel is one of the only characters I notice as being written as extremely flawed, I mean the writers are taking a protagonist and showing the ugly. I doubt the writers would ever attempt to show Ollie in a way which would deliberately make him disalikeable. When we see him cheating with Sara, it's only to showcase how far he's come in the present, not to make you dislike him.

Yes, Ollie isn't written this way because at the end of the day we are supposed to root for him. He makes mistakes, but he usually owns up to them, even if it can take him a long time (it took a whole year for him to question his indiscriminate killing), and tries to do better. That's not "pandering", that's just a sensible way to write your hero.

Laurel has no redeeming features. Even in the flashbacks she was self-centered, oblivious to other people and lashed out the second someone questioned her idea of what the world was like.

I actually thought Felicity's "I have to tell Ollie about this secret that could ruin Thea's life because I want his cock inside me!" bullshit dragged her below a lot of characters.

She was at the top, now I'd put her at the level of druggy Thea from S1. Even Laurel has more legitimate reasons for her actions.

Uh, telling Oliver the big family secret she stumbled across is worse than driving under the influence? Once Felicity knew she had no good choices left. The best one might have been to tell Thea, who has more of a right to know than anybody else, but then it would have come from someone who is at best a casual acquaintance. Telling Oliver is probably the second best option, miles ahead of staying silent.

[red snow]

I actually thought Felicity's "I have to tell Ollie about this secret that could ruin Thea's life because I want his cock inside me!" bullshit dragged her below a lot of characters.

She was at the top, now I'd put her at the level of druggy Thea from S1. Even Laurel has more legitimate reasons for her actions.

I don't think that's why she told him at all. It's because he's a friend and she knew he'd be pissed if he knew she had been holding the info (I also suspect she didn't appreciate Moira's threats). Put it this way, if it had been Diggle who had found out would he have told Ollie? I think the answer is yes and that doesn't have anything to do with him being attracted to Ollie (unless that's the main reason his previous relationship failed :P) . I genuinley think it was more out of respect for their friend/leader.

Jon is correct in saying Thea should be told so she can control the information how she likes but is also correct in that it may not be best coming from Felicity. It'll be a moot point soon because the info was relatively easy for Thea to find - I'm pretty sure Blood will find this and use it against Moira.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I said last year that Laurel didn't add much to the storylines, and w/o Tommy or w/o being a DA she is just about pointless now that both her father and sister are working well w/ Arrow.

When Cassidy was on Supernatural she was written out, but they kept the character of Ruby. I think that speaks for itself, and very loudly at that. Her family name has open doors, but come on she just doesn't have the "it".

WtF was Roy? You have some bad ass in town, and you don't even talk to him even if it was only to tell him to stay out of it?

I think Sara and Ollie angle was a dumb way togo. They have already done that, and it didn't work out well. Now that her sister hates her again, she going right back to it? I don't like it at all.

[Jon AS]

I don't think that's why she told him at all. It's because he's a friend and she knew he'd be pissed if he knew she had been holding the info (I also suspect she didn't appreciate Moira's threats). Put it this way, if it had been Diggle who had found out would he have told Ollie? I think the answer is yes and that doesn't have anything to do with him being attracted to Ollie (unless that's the main reason his previous relationship failed :P) .

Clearly a lot of the relationship soap opera on the show could be avoided if Oliver and Diggle just admitted their feelings and got together. But I guess we'll have to wait until the last season for that.

WtF was Roy? You have some bad ass in town, and you don't even talk to him even if it was only to tell him to stay out of it?

I like to think that Roy came across Nyssa early in the episode and spent the rest of the time unconscious in an alley somewhere. Though of course it would have been more fun to see that. They could have cut the airport scene to show it.

I think Sara and Ollie angle was a dumb way togo. They have already done that, and it didn't work out well. Now that her sister hates her again, she going right back to it? I don't like it at all.

There's the possibility that it's just going to be two friends hooking up because both are having family troubles and are looking for comfort. How would a serious relationship play out anyway? More secrets and sneaking around behind everybody's backs, or would Sara openly date Ollie after officially being back from the dead? Surely, as much as he does not hate Oliver at the moment, her father would be thrilled about that...

[baxus]

i'm looking forward to seeing how ollie - roy dynamics will work after last week's revelation.

wanted to see more of that in this week's episode, but show runners had other things in mind.

[Mexal]

WtF was Roy? You have some bad ass in town, and you don't even talk to him even if it was only to tell him to stay out of it?

This interview explains where Roy was.

“There was an amazing sequence in here that we actually had that unfortunately we just had to cut for time because this episode was just so jam-packed. But we actually had Oliver tell Roy, ‘I want you to go down to the hospital and keep an eye on Laurel.' When Nyssa and her goon kidnap Mrs. Lance, Roy actually confronts them. Nyssa shoots him with a dart with snake venom and says, ‘A normal person would be dead by now. You're stronger than you look,’ and he says, ‘I get that a lot.’ Then they have a fight, but the venom starts to affect him, and she takes him out. It's a great sequence, and they're great in it, but it wasn't propelling the story forward. It was just a really neat moment."

[Jon AS]

Hey, I was half right, cool.

[Mexal]

i'm looking forward to seeing how ollie - roy dynamics will work after last week's revelation.

wanted to see more of that in this week's episode, but show runners had other things in mind.

You'll get plenty of that in the next few episodes.