the red viper vs Barristan Selmy

[Contemplative Brother]

The Viper would gain the upper hand at first, but then he would start to talk and show off. "Say my name, Selmy! I want to hear you say it before you die!" He would distract himself and Selmy would stab him through the throat. The end.

[Nictarion]

Oberyn. They have about the same amount of talent, and comparable experience, but Oberyn is in his prime, Barristan is thirty years later.

They don't have the same amount of experience. Barristan fought in several wars, Oberyn fought in 0.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

They don't have the same amount of experience. Barristan fought in several wars, Oberyn fought in 0.

He served in mercenary companies before, which means that he must have a decent amount of experience.

[Gneisenau]

They don't have the same amount of experience. Barristan fought in several wars, Oberyn fought in 0.

Fighting in formation in war is alot different than fighting 1 vs 1 in a duel.

[Nictarion]

He served in mercenary companies before, which means that he must have a decent amount of experience.

Yeah, I remembered that right after I posted. Oberyn still doesn't have the experience Barristan does though. Selmy fought in The War of the Nine Penny Kings, Robert's Rebellion, and single handedly saved Aerys from Duskendale.

[Nictarion]

Fighting in formation in war is alot different than fighting 1 vs 1 in a duel.

It is, but one on one does occur in battle. He slew Maelys the Monstrous. Robert vs Rhaegar, etc...

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

i wonder if Oberyn would use a sword or spear in this fight. Sword i got Barristan all day, spear i think it's more of a toss up. I'd still go with Barristan but only sightly.

[Brightstar_]

Not sure, Barristan in his prime would get my vote rightaway. Old Barristan I can't be sure, Oberyn is no pushover either. I'd still give Barristan the edge, though a small one.

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

I don't think Barristan is the greatest of all time. I think most would agree that Arthur Dayne was better. The titan's Bastard wasn't any good. And while Barry might have skill to spare, so does Oberyn. Oberyn is also younger and has the advantage of the spear.

GRRM stated that Barristan and Dayne would be a toss up if given equal weaponry. Be that as it may both of these men are leagues above Oberyn. Is Oberyn a good fighter yes, but is he Selmy/ Dayne caliber I would say not even close. As for most agreeing that Dayne is a better knight than selmy lets compare accomplishments.

List of Barristans accomplishments;

§ Received his knighthood at the age of sixteen from King Aegon V after unhorsing Prince Duncan and Lord Commander Duncan the Tall of the Kingsguard at a tourney in King's Landing.

§ Killing Maelys the Monstrous in single combat in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, ending the line of the Blackfyre pretenders after cutting a bloody swath through the Golden Company to get to him

§ Ended the defiance at Duskendale basically single handedly, avenging his sworn brother

§ KIlled Simon Toyne the leader of the Kingswood brotherhood.

§ Captured Old Wyk during the Greyjoy rebellion

§ Survives the battle of the trident.

§ Kills Khrazz a feared pit fighter at 63 years of age

Tourney Prowess

§ Defended the passage against all challengers at the tourney of Silver Bridge.

§ Wins the Tourney at Oldtown

§ Wins the tourney at Maidenpoool

§ Wins the tourney at Stormsend defeated Rhaegar, Oberyn, Lewyn Hightower, Robert Baratheon and Jon Connington.

§ Wins unnamed tourney at the age of 57

I know Arthur Dayne was an amazing sword but seriously what has he done?

Defeating the smiling knight who wasn't even the head of the brotherhood and being killed by Ned/Howland are his only accomplishments. Most of what we hear about Arthur is from Jaime who has a bias since Arthur knighted him and Barristan dislikes him.

[Gneisenau]

I know Arthur Dayne was an amazing sword but seriously what has he done?

Defeating the smiling knight who wasn't even the head of the brotherhood and being killed by Ned/Howland are his only accomplishments. Most of what we hear about Arthur are from Jaime who is biased since Arthur knighted him and Barristan dislikes him.

But the question was about a 1 v 1 and in this regard Arthur Dayne is peerless (except for maybe Barry), but as you said Dayne got owned by Ned and some mudman so I'm not so sure if Dayne's martial prowess is all that good.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

In his prime, Barristan wins. Now, I'd still give him the edge, but Oberyn could win.

But the question was about a 1 v 1 and in this regard Arthur Dayne is peerless (except for maybe Barry), but as you said Dayne got owned by Ned and some mudman so I'm not so sure if Dayne's martial prowess is all that good.

:rolleyes: Dayne didn't get "owned". It was seven against three for starters and Dayne nearly killed Ned. Being outnumbered and still almost succeeding is far from being owned. Who knows what Howland had up his sleeve?

Kills Hizdahr Zo Loraq a feared pit fighter at 63 years of age

Ha, no Hizdahr is Dany's husband. I've forgotten the name of the pit fighter.

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

Khrazz my mistake

[Gneisenau]

In his prime, Barristan wins. Now, I'd still give him the edge, but Oberyn could win.

:rolleyes: Dayne didn't get "owned". It was seven against three for starters and Dayne nearly killed Ned. Being outnumbered and still almost succeeding is far from being owned. Who knows what Howland had up his sleeve?

Ha, no Hizdahr is Dany's husband. I've forgotten the name of the pit fighter.

Was Ned injured from the fight ? Because I don't recall any injuries. Dayne wasn't even able to deliever an afterblow after being killed.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Was Ned injured from the fight ? Because I don't recall any injuries.

We don't know about injuries, all we know is that Howland saved Ned's life.

Dayne wasn't even able to deliever an afterblow after being killed.

...

What?

[Northern Nomad]

Was Ned injured from the fight ? Because I don't recall any injuries. Dayne wasn't even able to deliever an afterblow after being killed.

Corpses are not known for their martial prowess.

[Gneisenau]

We don't know about injuries, all we know is that Howland saved Ned's life.

...

What?

Usually when people fight, when one person A gets a hit on a person B, person B is usually in a good position to strike person A (because you don't die instantly from swords) resulting in both people getting injured. So many people were taught to defend themselves while only safely attacking the opponent. The fact that Ned didn't suffer an afterblow meant he was in such a superior position to Dayne that Dayne couldn't even deliever a hit on Ned.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm not so sure, all of Barristans victories seems to be against men who are wielding swords themselves but there i may be wrong and feel free to correct me, to face someone trained in spear work as well as any of the finest swordsman could prove to be the death of Barristan. Oberyn was a master with a spear, fast, agile and able to dance around his opponents, spears are seen as generally peasants weapons but if trained properly and for as long as Oberyn then i think that Selmy would have fought fought valiantly, but eventually lost.

I think you'd need to use some really exotic weapon to catch Barristan unprepared (a cello painted pink and with two live parrots tied to its neck, maybe?). A spear is anything but exotic, so I'll wager a knight who takes his trade as seriously as Barry has spent countless hours learning and practicing fighting against it (same goes for swords of various sizes and shapes, axes, maces, hammers, and whatever). Anyway, who said that a spear would necessarily be Oberyn's weapon of choice? Against Clegane he used it to counter his range advantage, against Selmy maybe he'd choose something entirely different (the aforementioned cello?).

And anyway we can't say who'd win that duel, with any degree of confidence. "Is Schroedinger's cat alive or dead, and answer it without peeking inside the box?" It's that kind of a question.

[Joseph Stark]

Although the spear is the favored weapon of the Dornish army they also some of the best knights in the 7 kingdoms and IMO they primarily fight with swords just like knights from other regions. I believe the only reason he used a spear against Gregor was to counter Gregors reach advantage, and in a duel with Barristan or any other Knight of regular size im almost positive he would use a sword. IMO Barristan in his prime would destroy Oberyn but at his present age it would be a much closer contest. maybe 6 times out of 10 Barristan wins but is wounded and later dies of poison in his wounds.

A spear is considered a peasant weapon because it is cheap and easy to produce in large amounts(some of them are just long sticks with sharpened fire hardened points). Spears are also easy to train an inexperienced person to use in a short amount of time and can be effective side by side with other peasants spearmen against cavalry even Knights.

[House Lemongrab]

Barristan would be far more calm and collected than Gregor was. I think instead of charging mindlessly at Oberyn like Gregor did, he would stand back and defend with his shield until he could get close enough to strike. If Oberyn dropped his spear to evade like he did with the Mountain, I could imagine Barry just standing over the spear waiting for Oberyn to come get it, at which point he would cut him to shreds.

So, if this dual were to happen, I can imagine Oberyn changing his tactics, perhaps actually suiting up in heavy mail and using a long sword and shield. If that scenario happened, as much as I love the Viper, Barristan would be huge odds-on favourite.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Usually when people fight, when one person A gets a hit on a person B, person B is usually in a good position to strike person A (because you don't die instantly from swords) resulting in both people getting injured. So many people were taught to defend themselves while only safely attacking the opponent. The fact that Ned didn't suffer an afterblow meant he was in such a superior position to Dayne that Dayne couldn't even deliever a hit on Ned.

Well I think Howland took him by surprise, meaning he didn't have a chance to seriously injure Ned. Also I was mostly confused because you said "after being killed". Do you mean "fatally wounded" instead of "killed"?