Bran Stark – A Self Fulfilling Prophecy

[Hrafntýr]

Good point. Why would Bran the Builder care to help Durran construct Storm's End? The best I can consider (with no textual support) Durran's wife Elenei was the daughter of the Sea God. The old gods seem very earth based, maybe the sea gods and old gods were opposed to one another in some way so Bran the Builder lent his support. Or Durran was an ally of Bran the Builder during the Long Night.

(Nice link about Howland Reed being the High Septon by the way, that is most certainly a Crannogmen Crackpot).

And yet the children used the sea to shatter the Arm of Dorne. In Ironborn religion we've got the opposition of the Drowned God to the Storm God. The Storm God might have loose connection to the children, because he's associated with ravens. So perhaps the Drowned god is the father of Elenei, and he's opposed to the children's storm god? Or the Storm God is simply the power the children have over the sea?

Another connection that might make Bran feel connected to the plight of Durran and Elenei is the fact that the storm god and wind goddess killed Durran's family and all his guest on his wedding night. Might strike Bran rather close to his heart, given what happened to Robb?

Nice OP, by the way! I quite like playing around with the temporal paradox that Bran as last greenseer introduces. You know, like he knows Winterfell so well because he built it, but he knew how to build it because he'd climbed it as a kid...

[setmyheartafire]

Do others think this board over-estimates houses and underestimates the religions in the final battles? I would not be surprised to see old versus new religions play a major role....

I do think there is more attention paid to the politics in this series than to the religion and folklore in it.

By most readers, not all. There are a lot of people on this forum that discuss the religious aspects of the series. I think people don't discuss the gods as taking part in the events because GRRM said that none would be held up as the "one true god" in the series. However it still seems to me that a lot of what people believe of the religions in the books come from ancient events passed down (not unlike our traditions on Earth really).

For example with the old gods. People believe they listen through the trees. Well, someone does. Not gods perhaps but the greenseers like Bran and Bloodraven really are listening through the trees. So the belief the people have of the old gods isn't really incorrect but it's not necessarily correct either.

And I do think all the religions will have a part in the conclusion of the conflict with the Others.

And yet the children used the sea to shatter the Arm of Dorne. In Ironborn religion we've got the opposition of the Drowned God to the Storm God. The Storm God might have loose connection to the children, because he's associated with ravens. So perhaps the Drowned god is the father of Elenei, and he's opposed to the children's storm god? Or the Storm God is simply the power the children have over the sea?

Another connection that might make Bran feel connected to the plight of Durran and Elenei is the fact that the storm god and wind goddess killed Durran's family and all his guest on his wedding night. Might strike Bran rather close to his heart, given what happened to Robb?

Nice OP, by the way! I quite like playing around with the temporal paradox that Bran as last greenseer introduces. You know, like he knows Winterfell so well because he built it, but he knew how to build it because he'd climbed it as a kid...

Interesting pitting the Drowned God vs the Storm God. I suppose it makes sense as a storm isn't necessarily about the sea or even just water. It's more of a "force" than an element isn't it?

[Hrafntýr]

Interesting pitting the Drowned God vs the Storm God. I suppose it makes sense as a storm isn't necessarily about the sea or even just water. It's more of a "force" than an element isn't it?

Well, perhaps the Ironborn invented the Drowned God to reflect their primary concern with the sea even as they wanted to set themselves up in opposition to the children who have their own power over the sea. Hence the Ironborn mythology of the Drowned God vs. Sea God?

[OnlyOne]

About 7: It is known that if you cannot move your legs due to spinal injury you cannot get an erection. That's not always the case medically speaking FYI.

I like the notion of Bran being the prince that was promised, the idea of TPTWP being Targaryen was planted by the ghost of high heart, that despite being most likely a children of the forest is no greenseer.

[jet199]

The weirwood at Winterfell was there before it was built but the last thing Bran sees though the trees eyes is a woman sacrificing a man. If Bran the Builder is using spells then we would expect to see him doing the sacrificing, unless he is the one being sacrificed. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell might be related to the first Bran's blood being used to build it.

[Lord Ravenstark]

The weirwood at Winterfell was there before it was built but the last thing Bran sees though the trees eyes is a woman sacrificing a man. If Bran the Builder is using spells then we would expect to see him doing the sacrificing, unless he is the one being sacrificed. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell might be related to the first Bran's blood being used to build it.

I don't think Bran (the Builder) was the one sacrificed. Also, not every magic is blood magic. I can't see magic as an economy with blood being the currency and while I am sure almost every use of magic have a cost, it doesn't need to be a life.

However, if you ask me... I do believe the man was sacrificed to power blood magic, though what she did is unclear.

How powerful are the Old Gods? They are more than trees, I guess. And look at the Arm of Dorne, it is clear they have power (even if they need to be empowered by their believers) well beyond their roots.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Nice OP, by the way! I quite like playing around with the temporal paradox that Bran as last greenseer introduces. You know, like he knows Winterfell so well because he built it, but he knew how to build it because he'd climbed it as a kid...

Snip.

This is my feeling.

Bran spends time/years probably in the cave, bends time, never has to go to the Cave.

Storms end is the southern bastion against the long night as winterfell is the northern.

[Modesty Lannister]

I think it is interesting that one word links Bran, Bran the Builder and CotF and that is the world CHILD.

Bran is a child.

Brand the Builder is described as a child.

CotF are short and beautiful and even when fully grown, look like children to men.

So, can it be concluded that Bran the Builder was a child of the forest? If he is the founder of the Stark dynasty, then, judging by the size of the first Starks in the crypts, Starks are descendants of CotF and Others. Can it be that a woman with a sickle in Bran's vision who makes a sacrifice is actually a female Other?

[Amoracchius]

I think it is interesting that one word links Bran, Bran the Builder and CotF and that is the world CHILD.

Bran is a child.

Brand the Builder is described as a child.

CotF are short and beautiful and even when fully grown, look like children to men.

So, can it be concluded that Bran the Builder was a child of the forest? If he is the founder of the Stark dynasty, then, judging by the size of the first Starks in the crypts, Starks are descendants of CotF and Others. Can it be that a woman with a sickle in Bran's vision who makes a sacrifice is actually a female Other?

I'm confused. Where does the idea that Bran the Builder was child comes from? The only description of him as a child that I remember is in the myth of Storm's End's construction, but even there, it's stated that Durran was helped by a boy "who grew up to be Brandon the Builder." I don't remember anything in the stories of the constrcution of the Wall or Winterfell describing him as a child, which strongly implies that he wasn't a COTF, but just a human who happened to be young when he began his career as a builder.

Are you saying that the myths got twisted over time and that BtB was actually a COTF?

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm confused. Where does the idea that Bran the Builder was child comes from? The only description of him as a child that I remember is in the myth of Storm's End's construction, but even there, it's stated that Durran was helped by a boy "who grew up to be Brandon the Builder." I don't remember anything in the stories of the constrcution of the Wall or Winterfell describing him as a child, which strongly implies that he wasn't a COTF, but just a human who happened to be young when he began his career as a builder.

Are you saying that the myths got twisted over time and that BtB was actually a COTF?

Well, as I said, the only description of Bran the Builder is of him being a child. And it does strike me as odd that after building 6 castles Durran asks for a child's advice. So, I started to wonder if Bran the Builder was a human as we were led to believe or a child (otF) or a product of some inter-race marriage? "grew up to be Brandon the Builder" is pretty vague as well. As you said, myths usually change over a couple of millenniums, but the whole construction of that paragraph is fishy enough to make me wonder.

[Amoracchius]

Well, as I said, the only description of Bran the Builder is of him being a child. And it does strike me as odd that after building 6 castles Durran asks for a child's advice. So, I started to wonder if Bran the Builder was a human as we were led to believe or a child (otF) or a product of some inter-race marriage? "grew up to be Brandon the Builder" is pretty vague as well. As you said, myths usually change over a couple of millenniums, but the whole construction of that paragraph is fishy enough to make me wonder.

I see what you're saying. When it comes to myths changing over time, I'm more inclined to believe that Brandon the Builder didn't have anything to do with Storm's End at all, but that over thousands of years it got attributed to him as well. Of course, this is all speculation, but speculation is fun!

[whatsinthepaste?]

I think it is interesting that one word links Bran, Bran the Builder and CotF and that is the world CHILD.

Bran is a child.

Brand the Builder is described as a child.

CotF are short and beautiful and even when fully grown, look like children to men.

So, can it be concluded that Bran the Builder was a child of the forest? If he is the founder of the Stark dynasty, then, judging by the size of the first Starks in the crypts, Starks are descendants of CotF and Others. Can it be that a woman with a sickle in Bran's vision who makes a sacrifice is actually a female Other?

COTF + lady Other + sexy times = starks.

I strangely.. Like that theory a lot..

Edit: sexy times = blood sacrifice to a tree.

[JasonJD]

A faint wind sighed through the godswood and the red leaves stirred and whispered. Summer bared his teeth. “You hear them, boy?” a voice asked.

Bran lifted his head. Osha stood across the pool, beneath an ancient oak, her face shadowed by leaves. Even in irons, the Wildling moved quiet as a cat. Summer circled the pool, sniffed at her. The tall woman flinched.

“Summer, to me,” Bran called. The direwolf took one final sniff, spun, and bounded back. Bran wrapped his arms around him. “What are you doing here?” He had not seen Osha since they’d taken her captive in the wolfswood, though he knew she’d been set to working in the kitchens.

“They are my gods too,” Osha said. “Beyond the Wall, they are the only gods.” Her hair was growing out, brown and shaggy. It made her look more womanly, that and the simple dress of brown roughspun they’d given her when they took her mail and leather. “Gage lets me have my prayers from time to time, when I feel the need, and I let him do as he likes under my skirt, when he feels the need. It’s nothing to me. I like the smell of flour on his hands, and he’s gentler than Stiv.” She gave an awkward bow. “I’ll leave you. There’s pots that want scouring.”

“No, stay,” Bran commanded her. “Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods.”

Osha studied him. “You asked them and they’re answering. Open your ears, listen, you’ll hear.”

Bran listened. “It’s only the wind,” he said after a moment, uncertain. “The leaves are rustling.”

“Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?” She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. “They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that’s them talking back.”

“What are they saying?”

“They’re sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he’s going. The old gods have no power in the south. The weirwoods there were all cut down, thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?”

Mayhaps, it's not the gods talking, but communication through the network? If the OPs theory is correct, that could very well be future-Bran that's sad, knowing what will become of Robb, knowing that even with the power he's attained, he's helpless to change it. Granted some are probably more attunded to hearing the voice than others. Osha can hear it, Ned could hear Bran to a degree, those make sense given their communion with the Old Gods/Weirwoods. Theon makes sense from a point of desperation and being hopelessly lost, when else do men hear gods?

[jabulaniman]

Thanks for laying this out OP.

Some solid points there, and I'm sure many of us have pondered them and I myself have in other threads pointed out that bran could possibly occupy other bodies throughout time, choosing a little boy as that's how he could see himself, even if he is more god than human by then.

I think that this ties in to that bran is a solid contender for the TPTWP and that there's possibly some kind of time loop in the world that means prophecy and legend can be true and some exaggerated/Inflated/dogmatic stories that some characters are almost doomed to live out and in some cases, repeat.

Its possible that every long night basically wipes the world clean and they start again, don't know how deep GRRM would go down this track as it's an oft repeated sci Fi/fantasy idea but to me it seems very possible, and bran knows this and tried to prepare humanity each time.

Too matrix? Probably.

Yeah, I've thought of this before but like you implied, it would be a cool and interesting revelation if it weren't for all the sci-fi moves and games that have already used this concept, eg Matrix and Mass Effect 3.

[nmcole88]

I would agree that Bran is probably a more powerful greenseerer because he is able to change into people and talk to people as Bran. Along with the pointed out examples of Bran speaking to Ned and Theon through the tree, it was also mentioned that Mormont's raven said "Jon Snow" and it has never used Jon's full name before and after that occurrence.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Fantastastic analysis!

[Syri0_F0rel]

I see what you're saying. When it comes to myths changing over time, I'm more inclined to believe that Brandon the Builder didn't have anything to do with Storm's End at all, but that over thousands of years it got attributed to him as well. Of course, this is all speculation, but speculation is fun!

You pretty much nail it. Bran the Builder is folklore. GRR Martin says,"No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time." (From wiki)

[Modesty Lannister]

You pretty much nail it. Bran the Builder is folklore. GRR Martin says,"No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time." (From wiki)

Brandon the Builder would have been folklore in a normal world. But this a fantasy world full of magic. CotF as we now know, are not a myth. Bran the Builder is not a myth at all. But, as I said, it is interesting that he is described as a child. That woulld also explain how he managed to build the Wall, Winterfell and Storm's End both in terms of use of magic and the lifespan CotF have. But, that would also mean Starks are interbred with CotF and that is very significant.

[Amoracchius]

Brandon the Builder would have been folklore in a normal world. But this a fantasy world full of magic. CotF as we now know, are not a myth. Bran the Builder is not a myth at all. But, as I said, it is interesting that he is described as a child. That woulld also explain how he managed to build the Wall, Winterfell and Storm's End both in terms of use of magic and the lifespan CotF have. But, that would also mean Starks are interbred with CotF and that is very significant.

Again, I'm not sure the reference to Bran the Builder as a boy means what you are taking it to mean. No one describes him as a child when they discuss him building Winterfell or the Wall, but there is a completely separate myth about the construction of Storm's End by Durran, who some people think was helped by a boy who later grew up to be Bran the Builder. In fact, the reference to Storm's End is from a Cat chapter and she doesn't even use the word "child," and specifically states that he "grew to be Bran the Builder," strongly implying he was a normal boy, not a COTF.

To be clear, I think Bran the Builder existed in-universe, but his deeds and accomplishments have probably been embellished and distorted over time, but unless there is other evidence I'm missing, I don't think we can jump from "A small boy told [Durran] what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder," (Catelyn III, ACOK) to "Bran the Builder was a Child of the Forest."

[Modesty Lannister]

Again, I'm not sure the reference to Bran the Builder as a boy means what you are taking it to mean. No one describes him as a child when they discuss him building Winterfell or the Wall, but there is a completely separate myth about the construction of Storm's End by Durran, who some people think was helped by a boy who later grew up to be Bran the Builder. In fact, the reference to Storm's End is from a Cat chapter and she doesn't even use the word "child," and specifically states that he "grew to be Bran the Builder," strongly implying he was a normal boy, not a COTF.

To be clear, I think Bran the Builder existed in-universe, but his deeds and accomplishments have probably been embellished and distorted over time, but unless there is other evidence I'm missing, I don't think we can jump from "A small boy told [Durran] what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder," (Catelyn III, ACOK) to "Bran the Builder was a Child of the Forest."

Well, you wouldn't, but I would and obviously did. The only explanation ASOIAF gives us is that a man grown was taking a building advice from a boy. A boy is a child and a child cannot give architectural advice. Unless it is a CotF or a mongrel between CotF and the FM in which case the creature may look like a boy, but can be much older and wiser than Durran, not to mention well versed in magic. There is no other explanation that ASOIAF offers us. What you wrote is direct quotes from a Catelyn chapter. You took them literally and didn't even try to provide any reason why would a boy be able to build Storm's End. It is not just folklore. Every story has a nugget of truth and GRRM is providing us with crumbs that we have to collect along the way. This is not real life, but a careful literal construct. Why would GRRM provide us with that story about Bran the Builder? Just to fill a page? Without a purpose? Good writers do not fill pages without a purpose. So, what is the purpose. If there was nothing unusual about Bran the Builder, the story would just say he helped Durran build his final castle. But no. The story is adding this detail about Bran being a boy. This detail, in a real world, would render the story nonsensical. However, in a magical world where CotF exist as a different race with special abilities and powers, this detail alters the meaning of the story and actually provides additional information about how Bran possessed magic that was used in building of the Wall, Winterfell and Storm's End. From other stories, we know Starks are descendents of the FM, but from this one we find out that they are also descendents of CotF, because Bran is the founder of the Stark dynasty. This would then explain why some Starks have warging, skin-changing abilities and even greenseering abilities that FM didn't have and obtained from CotF, not as a gift, because these abilities cannot be given, but by interbreeding. Do you expect GRRM to spell all that to the readers? I wouldn't expect that from a good writer. He provided us a clue and as a proverb goes "even a mosquito buzz can sound like music to the right ears".