Is There Some Deeper Meaning To Tywin's Decomposition?

[Blazfemur]

The grin, the stench, the rate of his decomposure. Was George trying to push symbolism or metaphorical sense?

[Blazfemur]

read some theories somewhere that Tywin could've been poisoned, and thats why he was on the privy when Tyrion found him, kinda like cersei a few books ago.

Could his stench and expedited decomposure be a result of that theory?

[Knight Of Winter]

For any theories in general, you can check this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79775-a-compendium-of-theories/

Case in point: links to Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67678-oberyn-poisoned-tywin/ , http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/09/04-somethings-rotten-in-kl/index.html

IMO, theory is pretty probable one.

[A wilding]

GRRM often doesn't limit himself to just one level of meaning.

So it is fairly clear and widely agreed that one one level the decomposition is a metaphor for Tywin's life: a grand facade unable to hide the rotteness within.

It may also be an indication that Tywin was poisoned. Fatal stomach wounds do cause unpleasant decomposition effects, but one would imagine that Maesters might have some experience of dealing with such. Though personally I always think that Varys is the most likely poisoner and the Oberyn theory a real stretch that does not fit Oberyn's psychology.

[Blazfemur]

yeah i read the oberyn poisoning theory awhile back, the rate of tywin's decomposition and the foulness seeping through his armor would hint that might have been soemthing more than just a quarrel through the groin.

what made me question, was the smirk he seemingly had on his face. (im aware it was his skin stretching taut, the whole scene though screams something, i like A wildling's facade theory, as it's something i havent heard yet).

[Blazfemur]

in those chapters, inadvertantly jaime reflects on the majority of the most important scenes of his life, even confesses a few things to tywin. also, cersei comes onto him (when shes dresses as the wench), and for the first time their stuation is confessed out loud, in front of tywin's corpse.

jaime ultimately rejects her, in the sept, just as he rejected her in the white tower scene, reflecting "no, not here, not in this place." he didnt reject her in the sept after joffrey died, while he was in rags, and he sees her for the first time after losing his hand.

there's symbolism here, and im going to find it, every bit of it, even tywin's portrayal. im thinking tywin's situation has soemthing to do with jaime's character arc, somehow.

joffrey dead = jaime in rags meets cersei, sleeps with her (on her moon blood) right on the altar.

jaime reflecting self, contemplating the person he is, in the white tower = cersei comes to him, jaime rejects her, not in this place.

tywin dead = jaime in enameled white plate, cersei comes to him in wench rags, Jaime rejects her a second time, not in this place.

------>Jaime in rags, cersei dressed up (in sept, joff's death, they sleep together),

------> jaime in plate, cersei dressed up, in white tower, jaime's evolution to goodness taking precedence here, cersei lashes out after jaime rejects her

------> in the sept, jaime in plate, cersei in rags, comes to him, jaime rejects her, jaime's character arc into purity is complete with tywins death, and cersei's devolution begins, dressed in rags.

can tywin's death and decomposition, symbolize, jaime's evolution as a character. meaning, in life tywin never smiled (per tyrion chapter), but "even the threat was enough to behold." in death, the corruption seemingly melts away (visually as well). jaime is 100% on a redeeming path now, especially after gifting oathkeeper to brienne.

.....or i could just be reading too much into it, but it just seems pretty much spelled out, how much jaime is rising, and cersei is descending, how much their paths are inverting. jaime's need for redemption, as opposed to cersei hunger for vanity. it's all seesaw

[Chatty Duelist]

It symbolizes House Lannister rotting away while keeping their façade of power.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's irony that Tywin's corpse smiled, he who dispised laughter.

I've also never read or heard about poison being able to speed decomposition of the body. Poison would most likely be transported through your veins in such a case, right? Yet blood starts clothing immediately after death.

It is possible to have bacteria speed up decomposition, I'll admit that.

Also, I'd love it if Oberyn was responsible in a small way for Tywin's death, but Tywin sitting on the privy is not proof for him having been poisoned (that would have been incredible timing). People use toilets, and if Tywin was capable of entertaining himself with Shae, that should indicate he was healthy enough not to sit on the privy for a while. Him sitting on the privy when Tyrion entered was coincidence.

Would Oberyn have poisoned Tywin? Because in such a case, Tywin wouldn't be around anymore to see the destruction of his House and his power and all he held dear. Oberyn wanted him to suffer. I doubt that he would have thought cramps in the bowels to be sufficient. Gregor died screaming of pain, and it took him several weeks. Tywin would have died in sort of equal amount of pain, I'd think, if Oberyn was responsible.

And then there's also the condition of the body to consider. The weather was still reasonably warm, IIRC, and even though we keep bodies after death in freezers to preserve them until the funeral, in Westeros they did not have such a thing. Tywin laid in the Sept for several days, uncooled. That´s speeds up decay of a body.

And then, the most important part... There are so many people in KL that we read about. They all talk about Tywin and his laying in the Sept,.. Yet no one even considers something is amiss... They all consider the decay to be normal. That should give us a hint, no?

But truly, I wonder if it's possible to have poison speed the decay of a body after death...

[Mithras]

Yes, Oberyn poisoned him with widow's blood. It is also likely that the he magically altered the poison to cause that extra rotting of the corpse and even the strange muscle movements to cause that horrible grin.

[HairGrowsBack]

On a meta level, I'd say it's pretty much a continuation of him dying in the privy : Tywin was this god-like, unattainable figure but in the end he's only human : he shits (not gold) and stinks and his corpse rots just like everybody else's.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On a meta level, I'd say it's pretty much a continuation of him dying in the privy : Tywin was this god-like, unattainable figure but in the end he's only human : he shits (not gold) and stinks and his corpse rots just like everybody else's.

This, I think, is more likely. It only shows that Tywin was human, and not above other people. He rots in death just like everybody else. He's not someone special, whose corpse will remain in a perfect condition.

[Blazfemur]

On a meta level, I'd say it's pretty much a continuation of him dying in the privy : Tywin was this god-like, unattainable figure but in the end he's only human : he shits (not gold) and stinks and his corpse rots just like everybody else's.

true to all of it. humbled in death, so to speak. it just seems like his decomposition not only was expedited, but gave off a more rank stench than normal, it didn't seem like a "normal" wake in the eyes of everyone else, in fact people were joking about how bad it smelled if i remember correctly.

[HairGrowsBack]

true to all of it. humbled in death, so to speak. it just seems like his decomposition not only was expedited, but gave off a more rank stench than normal, it didn't seem like a "normal" wake in the eyes of everyone else, in fact people were joking about how bad it smelled if i remember correctly.

Well he was shot in the bowels wasn't he ? Which means all their 'content' was sort of spilled and probably festered.

It's great that people are trying to go through every tiny detail and try to extract some new theory from it, really, but just this time around I really love (and think) that the simpler explanation is the best, along with its highly symbolic aspect.

[Blazfemur]

yeah id put the topic to rest.

i think all in all, there was so muchforeshadowing and symbolism in A Game Of Thrones, and it gets harder to find toward the later books, so mentally im pushing it everywhere inadvertantly.

[My_Name_Is_Reek]

He laid in state for 7 days and nights, which is a long time for an non-embalmed body to lay around rotting. There is only so much Medieval era medicine can do to preserve a body. I think it was in the book as just another reason for Cersei to hate Pycelle, whom seems to be her whipping boy in AFFC.