R + L = J v 71

[Aeron_Damphair]

Don't overestimate the importance of the blue rose to the R+L=J theory. After I read Game of Thrones for the first time, before Clash of Kings came out, I used to argue in favor of R+L=J based on the bloody bed and the conflicting stories about who was Jon's mother.

I'm not sure that the blue rose's significance can be overstated. It is the unifying piece of symbolism. R+L=J is a more elegant and coherent explanation than anything about Ashara whisking a Targ to Essos.

[J. Stargaryen]

Don't overestimate the importance of the blue rose to the R+L=J theory. After I read Game of Thrones for the first time, before Clash of Kings came out, I used to argue in favor of R+L=J based on the bloody bed and the conflicting stories about who was Jon's mother.

Ultimately, I was persuaded that the mysterious death of Ashara Dayne must be important and it wasn't explained by R+L=J. So I now I buy into the theory that Lyanna's son or daughter was whisked to safety, probably in Essos, by Ashara.

While R+L=J has lots of clues and can stand on its own apart from the blue roses, their persistence in Ned's chapters is telling. Especially when later combined with the Bael story and Theon's 'feast of the dead' dream in Clash. It's Rhaegar who gave Lyanna the crown of winter roses, after all. Roses that she is apparently still holding on to at the ToJ in her "bed of blood."

I'm not sure that the blue rose's significance can be overstated. It is the unifying piece of symbolism. R+L=J is a more elegant and coherent explanation than anything about Ashara whisking a Targ to Essos.

Well said.

[Lyse Stark]

I'm not sure that the blue rose's significance can be overstated. It is the unifying piece of symbolism. R+L=J is a more elegant and coherent explanation than anything about Ashara whisking a Targ to Essos.

:agree: You better shut up about your useless idea, Fred. Many of your theories don't make sense and for them to work, it would have to involve some very convulated twists that actually cheapens the story GRRM is crafting.

[Fred of Ashai]

I scoff at your idea. I actually think Ashara Dayne is dead. She committed suicide, and I wouldn't be surprised if her body was washed out to sea, just like Harold Holt's was in 1967.

I used to think the whole thing about her body not being found was a red herring and that it would just be a loose end Martin would never tie up. I no longer think that is the way he writes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

:agree: You better shut up about your useless idea, Fred. Many of your theories don't make sense and for them to work, it would have to involve some very convulated twists that actually cheapens the story GRRM is crafting.

Now, now. He has the right to give his theories. Even if they don't make that much sense.

[Alia of the knife]

On the matter of Rhaegars temperament, while certainly wanting to defeat the rebels was the prime directive for Rhaegar, neither Rhaegar nor his father considered Robert a threat, yet, Rhaegar very nearly killed the most powerful warrior in Westeros.

I wonder what drove him?

Perhaps the dragon that was awakened?

Why kill a man you are not threatened by unless you just hate him?

[Alia of the knife]

I used to think the whole thing about her body not being found was a red herring and that it would just be a loose end Martin would never tie up. I no longer think that is the way he writes.

I tend to think that all Ashara was meant to be from B1 is a red herring for LYANNA, and hopefully, for the sake of "less is best," she is forever a tragic mystery and dead.

[The guy from the Vale]

Now, now. He has the right to give his theories. Even if they don't make that much sense.

Yeah, everybody has the right to their opinions. Just as everybody else has the right to tell them why they are wrong :P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, everybody has the right to their opinions. Just as everybody else has the right to tell them why they are wrong :P

And I'll shred his stuff like I have been doing. But I won't tell him or anyone else to "shut up."

[The guy from the Vale]

And I'll cheer you on. Really, telling people to shut up is never the right idea. It's far better to let hem tell their idea and then analyse what is indeed interesting, while also discarding the unsubstantiated stuff.

[Alia of the knife]

And drinking while you do it, okay, back to "Fringe"....

[J. Stargaryen]

And drinking while you do it, okay, back to "Fringe"....

Anna Torv. :drool:

[Alia of the knife]

Anna Torv. :drool:

:laugh:

[Cubarey]

"Why kill a man you are not threatened by unless you just hate him? "

Robert was heading a rebellion that included four of the seven most powerful Families in Westeros. An Alliance that had several military victories. Rhaegar may not have thought much of Robert personally (he stole his intended after all) but he was not stupid. Unlike his father he was quite capable of counting heads. The rebels presented a forbidable foe that had to be taken care of. That Rhaegar was condifendt he could defeat them does not mean he did not see them as a threat. Further, the punishment for leading a rebellion is death so wishing to destroy the rebellion and kill Robert would have been seen as important by Rhaegar not to mention having the jilted intended of your second wife around and kicking would be a bad idea in and of itself.

[Fire Eater]

I scoff at your idea. I actually think Ashara Dayne is dead. She committed suicide, and I wouldn't be surprised if her body was washed out to sea, just like Harold Holt's was in 1967.

There is another theory that Ashara Dayne is actually HR's wife under the alias pf "Jyana" (a combination of Jon and Lyanna). The story Meera gives told to her by her father shows that HR paid special attention to Ashara, noting all the men who danced with her.

If she is HR"s wife, then she would be credible in providing evidence for R+L=J for a handful of reasons: other than Starfall supplying the ToJ, she knew both Elia and Rhaegar as she was Elia's lady-in-waiting and friend, and her brother, Arthur Dayne, along with being a member of the KG, was Rhaegar's oldest friend. I think people would doubt that she would lie to put a bastard son of Eddard Stark claiming to be Rhaegar's son on the IT, as she would not have met Jon or had contact with him up to that point (since Starfall when he was an infant) as Greywater Watch has no ravens, not to mention an insult to her friends' memory.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is another theory that Ashara Dayne is actually HR's wife under the alias pf "Jyana" (a combination of Jon and Lyanna). The story Meera gives told to her by her father shows that HR paid special attention to Ashara, noting all the men who danced with her.

If she is HR"s wife, then she would be credible in providing evidence for R+L=J for a handful of reasons: other than Starfall supplying the ToJ, she knew both Elia and Rhaegar as she was Elia's lady-in-waiting and friend, and her brother, Arthur Dayne, along with being a member of the KG, was Rhaegar's oldest friend. I think people would doubt that she would lie to put a bastard son of Eddard Stark claiming to be Rhaegar's son on the IT, as she would not have met Jon or had contact with him up to that point (since Starfall when he was an infant) as Greywater Watch has no ravens, not to mention an insult to her friends' memory.

The H+A=M&J theory is one of my favorites. Even if it isn't true, it should be.

I'm actually 50-50 on whether I think Ashara is alive. The missing body plus that theory make me think no, but then I realize that her body could easily still be missing if she did kill herself. About the only thing I'm 100% sure of is that she is not Jon's mother. I'm also about 95% sure she isn't Lemore.

[Lyse Stark]

The H+A=M&J theory is one of my favorites. Even if it isn't true, it should be.

I'm actually 50-50 on whether I think Ashara is alive. The missing body plus that theory make me think no, but then I realize that her body could easily still be missing if she did kill herself. About the only thing I'm 100% sure of is that she is not Jon's mother. I'm also about 95% sure she isn't Lemore.

I said logically that if she committed suicide, it would be likely that her body was washed out to sea, much like Harrold Holt's body was in 1967. Oceanic currents would do that.

[Fire Eater]

The H+A=M&J theory is one of my favorites. Even if it isn't true, it should be.

I'm actually 50-50 on whether I think Ashara is alive. The missing body plus that theory make me think no, but then I realize that her body could easily still be missing if she did kill herself. About the only thing I'm 100% sure of is that she is not Jon's mother. I'm also about 95% sure she isn't Lemore.

I'm 100% sure she isn't Lemore. H+A+M&J is a favorite of mine as well. I think if she had committed suicide her brother, Edric's father, would have made an effort to recover the body and giver her a proper burial as she was still his sister, and they would have rushed to do it after the moment she jumped off.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm 100% sure she isn't Lemore. H+A+M&J is a favorite of mine as well. I think if she had committed suicide her brother, Edric's father, would have made an effort to recover the body and giver her a proper burial as she was still his sister, and they would have rushed to do it after the moment she jumped off.

This is totally random and has no real bearing on anything, but it could have been Edric's mother who ruled Starfall in her own right and was Ashara, Arthur and Allyria's sister. We all seem to assume it was his father (including me, and it could have been), but by Dornish law, could've been a lady mother.

I want to be 100% sure she isn't Lemore, because it could undermine what GRRM has written about both women. But it's always a possibility.

[Fire Eater]

This is totally random and has no real bearing on anything, but it could have been Edric's mother who ruled Starfall in her own right and was Ashara, Arthur and Allyria's sister. We all seem to assume it was his father (including me, and it could have been), but by Dornish law, could've been a lady mother.

My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. ;)