Gerold Dayne, Squire at the Tower of joy?

[Arya kiddin']

This is very well written, and though entirely crackpot, makes sense too. I never got the Darkstar hate the people on forums give him, I actually like this character. This gives a whole new purpose to his story. Good work. :thumbsup:

[Chilli]

Interesting OP and well presented. I'm also inclined to think that Darkstar's may be dangerous due to knowledge he possesses. We've discussed before that the proximity of High Hermitage to the Tower of Joy makes it possible that he attained some knowledge of the events there in one of a variety of ways (perhaps he had knowledge of messages delivered or received, heard servants' gossip, or even personally observing a curious caravan of two knights accompanied by a woman and a baby and a horse bearing a grim burden?)

I'd have to agree with Sevumar though, that his seeming hatred of his cousin seems more like the emotion of someone who was rejected. But to play along with your reasoning, what if he was a squire for his cousin and was sent away for reasons he couldn't possibly understand and has nursed a grudge over it all this time? Reasons could range from the need for secrecy as Lyanna's confinement grew closer to the personal safety of the squires.

I believe that Doran's assessment of Darkstar is due to a whole other kind of knowledge, but that would be seriously off topic crackpot ;)

I believe this could be possible. Maybe Ned didn't know Darkstar was there somewhere and saw from a distance what happened. The only thing I wonder is how this could make a difference to the Martells or Darkstar. Jon is not Dornish and is not a Dayne and is not trying to sit on the IT, so why would they care. I guess they'll support Agon or maybe Daenerys.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

You can't start like this and then stop. Do tell!

Essentially I believe, the opposite of a certain theory as alluded to in this post

;)

I believe this could be possible. Maybe Ned didn't know Darkstar was there somewhere and saw from a distance what happened. The only thing I wonder is how this could make a difference to the Martells or Darkstar. Jon is not Dornish and is not a Dayne and is not trying to sit on the IT, so why would they care. I guess they'll support Agon or maybe Daenerys.

To be clear, I think his dangerous knowledge operates on two levels -- his possible ToJ knowledge, and the secret that would have a major impact on the Martell family, see linked post above.

[Visenya the Dragon]

The only thing that's in the sample chapter that is new, is this:

"Is that what Darkstar is? A man?" Ser Daemon grimaced. "A man would not have done what he did to Princess Myrcella. Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. Its just a pity that he never got around to killing him."

We don't know anything about Gerolds family, but since he's never mentioned to be ruler of High Hermitage, or the heir, we cannot assume he rules there on his own. As to his jealousy about Arthur: Arthur is the most well known Dayne around, and the only famous male Dayne. Gerold seems to be an arrogant guy. Even though he is considered a dangerous man, he is not known outside of Dorne. He wants fame, obviously, and he appears to be wroth that Arthur still is more famous now than he is.

Such an arrogant person as Gerold (which I'm sure you're not :) ), would not like it to be constantly asked about your extremely more famous cousin (no matter how distant a cousin)?

In addition to the likelyhood of Gerold having been a squire at ToJ and his survival being because of 1) not having fought and 2) Ned not killing children...

Had Gerold indeed been there as a squire, he would have fought. Squires fight with their knights, even in battles where the odds are against them.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Essentially I believe, the opposite of a certain theory as alluded to in this post

;)

To be clear, I think his dangerous knowledge operates on two levels -- his possible ToJ knowledge, and the secret that would have a major impact on the Martell family, see linked post above.

I'm intrigued by this. Also I've gotten very curious about the relationship between the Daynes and Martells ever since I reread this passage. "It was not for your [Tyrion's] tail alone that my sister [Elia] and I [Oberyn] came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock...but our true destination was marriage." (ASOS, Tyrion).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm intrigued by this. Also I've gotten very curious about the relationship between the Daynes and Martells ever since I reread this passage. "It was not for your [Tyrion's] tail alone that my sister [Elia] and I [Oberyn] came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock...but our true destination was marriage." (ASOS, Tyrion).

To betroth Oberyn seems to be possible and logical. Ashara had the right age.

Should there have been a brother as well (Edric's father) the PoD might have hoped to betroth Elia to him.

That they also stopped at Starfall isn't that odd actually.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

I don't believe there are any examples of Kingsguard taking on a Squire.

Their duty is to the King, they forsake everything that could interfere with that duty.

Jaime was Arthur Dayne's squire during the fight with the Kingswood Brotherhood. He fought alongside Arthur and was knighted by him afterwards.

edit

...Turns out he was Sumner Crakehall's squire.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jaime was Arthur Dayne's squire during the fight with the Kingswood Brotherhood. He fought alongside Arthur and was knighted by him afterwards.

Jaime was the squire of Lord Sumner Crakehall, not Arthur Dayne. Arthur was only the knight who led the attacks against the Brotherhood.

Jaime did indeed fight alongside Arthur, and got knighted by him after the final battle against the Brotherhood.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

yea he was crakehalls squire along with that Frey who Cat hangs.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Possibly the confusion arises from the show, where Jaime tells that he was Barristan's squire?

I'm interested to see if anyone can come up with other examples though. A knight without a squire irl would have been a knight without armor. Surely the KG knights must have had them?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

yes I am confused at the general lack of Squires to the KG. I need to re read the story to see if it overlaps. But in TP&TQ ser Harrold Darke used to be Ser Steffon darklyn captain of Rhaenyra's Queens Guard's Squire but I can't recall when he ceased to be, if it was during his time as a QG. Harrold Darke also served in her QG after he was Knighted.

[Pod The Impaler]

Arianne and Gerold Dayne have been lovers, but we are given the impression that it was not an open affair, she feels her father would not approve if she were to take him for a consort, she thinks of him as a good swordsman and implies he is unpredictable and not easy to read.

I never read it as them having been lovers before, but that she had never bedded him but wanted to (despite the risks).

[RobertsWarhammer]

I agree with almost all of this theory, I just think a more likely reason for Darkstar being bitter about Ser Arthur Dayne could be because of his foolishness in dying for a lost cause. Maybe Darkstar decided not to fight (If he was a squire) because he felt it would be pointless and he resents Ser Arthur Dayne for putting him in that situation?

As for Ned letting him go, I think it is quite feasible this could have happened. We all know Ned will often put children before even himself and this can lead to his actions being considered naive as he doesn't really think ahead to any potential backlash. For example he warns Cersei that he has found out about her incest and that her children aren't true heirs. He does this so she has a chance of protecting her children but he ends up getting his head chopped off as a consequence. Plus I think Ned had very few plausible alternatives and more important things to worry about (Like his dead sister and a Targaryen/Stark heir to the throne).

[Roddy the Ruin]

He is not badass enough to be Ser Arthur's squire

[Lady Blizzardborn]

This is an interesting theory, crackpot or no! On one of the other Darkstar threads I did a quick rundown on what could make him dangerous, and knowledge of Jon was on the list, but I couldn't figure out a way for him to know it. Now there is a way.

Another option for him surviving ToJ: he ran away rather than fight. That would keep his mouth shut. Rather than admit to the world that he was craven, even for a short time and as a child, he would keep the secret and learn to master his fear so that he never ran again. A little self-loathing can also give a person serious attitude issues (overcompensation) and possibly a death-wish aspect that could lead them to do things like, oh maybe take a swing at a Baratheon/Lannister heir.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

yea he was crakehalls squire along with that Frey who Cat hangs.

That would be Merrett Frey :)

I never read it as them having been lovers before, but that she had never bedded him but wanted to (despite the risks).

It's implied, though only a little, when Arianne muses about what their children would look like. The app has confirmed they had sex.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It's implied, though only a little, when Arianne muses about what their children would look like. The app has confirmed they had sex.

This kind of minor detail is exactly where I suggest the app be taken with a grain of salt. There is no specific proof of that in the text (only an interpretation of her musing, as Pod suggests) and afaik no SSM on the subject. GRRM did not vet every detail in the app, and so far it has been known to be subject to errors of interpretation. Not saying it's wrong, just not necessarily "gospel"

[Dagon]

I like it.

[Laniki]

As for Ned letting him go, I think it is quite feasible this could have happened. We all know Ned will often put children before even himself and this can lead to his actions being considered naive as he doesn't really think ahead to any potential backlash. . . .

Plus I think Ned had very few plausible alternatives and more important things to worry about (Like his dead sister and a Targaryen/Stark heir to the throne).

The members of the Kingsguard must have been at the ToJ for some time allowing everyone there to become acquainted with each other. In order to keep their whereabouts secret, there probably wasn't much staff. I could see a young squire running errands up and down stairs for a pregnant woman when he wasn't attending to his liege. That squire would get to know and perhaps admire the people he was around, especially if his liege was a good friend of Rhaegar. There probably weren't a lot of activities around the ToJ, so they must have spent time together amusing themselves by playing games or telling stories. All in all, there might have been a feeling of family for a 10-year old boy.

When Ned and Co. arrive, the threat of life and death was on all of them. I could see where the child would be sent to the safety of Lyanna for whatever protection was offered by her condition. With everyone dead except for the squire, Ned could have informed the boy that he was taking his sister Lyanna's baby away for protection, because being Rhaegar's child he was in mortal danger if anyone else were to know.

[Facebookless Man]

Even more crackpot: maybe he betrayed Arthur?

That could explain his silence on the subject, his general attitude towards life, and also how the scrawny crannogman could defeat the greatest KG ever.