Gerold Dayne, Squire at the Tower of joy?

[Leonardo]

BIg problem with this theory:

It means Doran knows the truth of well, so once again his point as a character is kind of moot.

[Fat King Robert]

He is not badass enough to be Ser Arthur's squire

Even if you are of the night? :dunno:

Well OP, it's a well presented theory, I'll give you that, it's also very plausible.

I'd like a whole thread about theories on who were at TOJ. I know there's a theory about Septon Merribald being there as well.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Another option for him surviving ToJ: he ran away rather than fight. That would keep his mouth shut. Rather than admit to the world that he was craven, even for a short time and as a child, he would keep the secret and learn to master his fear so that he never ran again. A little self-loathing can also give a person serious attitude issues (overcompensation) and possibly a death-wish aspect that could lead them to do things like, oh maybe take a swing at a Baratheon/Lannister heir.

I think that is a very feasible explanation too.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

BIg problem with this theory:

It means Doran knows the truth of well, so once again his point as a character is kind of moot.

Well no not really, Doran is never going to reveal the truth. He has absolutely no reason at all to ever want the parentage of Jon Snow to get out and every reason to want it kept a secret.

It doesn't matter how many people know if they all desperately want to keep it secret. All it takes is one person with the knowledge who doesn't really give a toss if it gets out, say if the person he swore an oath to keep it a secret to is dead, and he's really angry at the other person who has been pressuring him to never reveal it.. because Oh I don't know he sent some super skilled body guard and a KG Knight and a Sand Snake after him to kill him.... Hmmm.

Yes Doran knows but the last thing he wants is for it EVER to get out, especially now that his sister son may just possibly be still alive, another son, possibly with stronger proof he is legitimate ie: eye witness to the wedding and birth still alive. As opposed to having been introduced to the child at age 5 (or whatever it was) and just told by Varys that he was Aegon. Could still really screw with Dorans plans. He won't want Lyanna's child possibly splitting the Targ supporters in Westeros. He needs them all to support Aegon to ensure his triumph.

He's got a lot riding on Aegon. Cautious as he is that he could be fake, but he's always had a lot riding on the plan to wed his child to the Targ Heir, he doesn't want any chance that that the only or even preferred heir could ever be the the son of the woman who "stole" Rhaegar from his sister.

It is just a crackpot, but I do like to think it holds some water.. ;)

Thanks to everyone who likes it. you give me warm fuzzies.

[Facebookless Man]

i like it despite it holding no water :D

[Lord Martin]

This is fun and some aspects must ring true.

I can't believe that the only people at the TOJ were 3 KG Knights and Lyanna. No servants? No Squires? No Grooms? No midwives? So sure, I bet the KG had squires.

I can also go along with Ned letting them live, certainly his style.

Darkstar fits the age and its fair to ask, who was Arthur Dayne's squire and why?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

:thumbsup:

Cheers. I love my little Crackpot.

[HouseHarrison]

Honestly I'm one of the few who doesn't think darkstar has much mystery to him. I think he works for Baelish and little else.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is fun and some aspects must ring true.

I can't believe that the only people at the TOJ were 3 KG Knights and Lyanna. No servants? No Squires? No Grooms? No midwives? So sure, I bet the KG had squires.

I can also go along with Ned letting them live, certainly his style.

Darkstar fits the age and its fair to ask, who was Arthur Dayne's squire and why?

I think they had all of that but those people were unknown or common folk. Rhaegar disappeared for a long time, and also Arthur Dayne. Wouldn't Darkstar family wondered where they were? And wouldn't that put them in danger, if they found the kid?

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

I agree. As far as I know, there are no examples of a KG with a squire. On the other hand, Dorkstar is the type of guy to bear a grudge for Arthur becoming KG and thus burying the option to squire for him, anyway.

Remember Jaime with not one but three squires while he is campaigning in Riverlands to ensure kings peace?

[The Bittersteel]

Remember Jaime with not one but three squires while he is campaigning in Riverlands to ensure kings peace?

Would it be possible that only the Lord Commander can take squires? That would explain Selmy and Jaime and wouldn't invalidate this thread as the white bull was at the tower too but its just a thought. Would explain the lack of squires for the rest.

[Elkrider]

This theory actually makes Darkstar a lot more interesting, if it's true.

[Alia of the knife]

Well no not really, Doran is never going to reveal the truth. He has absolutely no reason at all to ever want the parentage of Jon Snow to get out and every reason to want it kept a secret.

It doesn't matter how many people know if they all desperately want to keep it secret. All it takes is one person with the knowledge who doesn't really give a toss if it gets out, say if the person he swore an oath to keep it a secret to is dead, and he's really angry at the other person who has been pressuring him to never reveal it.. because Oh I don't know he sent some super skilled body guard and a KG Knight and a Sand Snake after him to kill him.... Hmmm.

Yes Doran knows but the last thing he wants is for it EVER to get out, especially now that his sister son may just possibly be still alive, another son, possibly with stronger proof he is legitimate ie: eye witness to the wedding and birth still alive. As opposed to having been introduced to the child at age 5 (or whatever it was) and just told by Varys that he was Aegon. Could still really screw with Dorans plans. He won't want Lyanna's child possibly splitting the Targ supporters in Westeros. He needs them all to support Aegon to ensure his triumph.

He's got a lot riding on Aegon. Cautious as he is that he could be fake, but he's always had a lot riding on the plan to wed his child to the Targ Heir, he doesn't want any chance that that the only or even preferred heir could ever be the the son of the woman who "stole" Rhaegar from his sister.

It is just a crackpot, but I do like to think it holds some water.. ;)

Thanks to everyone who likes it. you give me warm fuzzies.

If this has been mentioned, I apologize, but it seems to me for Oberyn to hate Dayne so much to the point some think the RV should have killed him, and the fact he is considered the "most dangerous man in Dorne," could be his knowledge of something important rather than him being one more out-of-control psycho with a sword.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes Alia, I think its this knowledge which makes him dangerous. He's a danger to Dorans plans.

I think the Daynes as a family were in on the TOJ, this is why no one questioned where GD was. I think its very likely that he was fostered/Squiring for elder brother Dayne at Starfall anyway and that Arthur told Rhaegar he has a young cousin who he trusts who can come be a squire for us. They will have needed one.

I think GD was asked to join them as a squire and that during this time all his idealised ideas about Arthur were shattered. hence why he is so scathing about him to Myrcella. And the conversation regarding Namesakes with Garin, to me says he had a reason to dislike Gerold Hightower. Darkstar is his own. He doesn't like being known as Gerold because GH was a jerk who would sacrifice a young mother rather than ask a maester into the TOJ and who put his "duty" to crown a vulnerable baby above that babies safety.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes Alia, I think its this knowledge which makes him dangerous. He's a danger to Dorans plans.

I think the Daynes as a family were in on the TOJ, this is why no one questioned where GD was. I think its very likely that he was fostered/Squiring for elder brother Dayne at Starfall anyway and that Arthur told Rhaegar he has a young cousin who he trusts who can come be a squire for us. They will have needed one.

I think GD was asked to join them as a squire and that during this time all his idealised ideas about Arthur were shattered. hence why he is so scathing about him to Myrcella. And the conversation regarding Namesakes with Garin, to me says he had a reason to dislike Gerold Hightower. Darkstar is his own. He doesn't like being known as Gerold because GH was a jerk who would sacrifice a young mother rather than ask a maester into the TOJ and who put his "duty" to crown a vulnerable baby above that babies safety.

That is as about a good analysis of Gerold as I've seen and I agree.

He is aangry and overly arrogant for some very deep seated reasons.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thank you

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you

Your welcome! :D

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Been a while since I dredged my cracked cookware up, but I've been discussing it elsewhere so I thought I'd add in some other thoughts I had.

The horse. Ned returns Barbrey dustins husbands horse. Why? he certainly did not have the time to transport the bodies of the fallen to the nearest castle in order to have them treated by the Silent sisters and the bones sent on to their various homes. We can pretty safely assume that this was due to having a newborn baby to attend to. The nearest castle was Nightsong by the looks of the maps so it would have been fine to take them there it is sworn to the Stormlands and there would be no risk of disgruntled defeated targ loyalists turning them away.

But instead Ned buries them in cairns. Which are made from the dismantled ToJ. Now the time involved in taking the tower down has long been a controversial point. and I agree it seems that to do so would also have been laborious and time consuming. But non the less we know this is what was done. I always just imagine the entire tower was not de constructed but just that they ripped away enough stones to build the cairns.

Anyway my point being why on earth when you are travelling at speed due to necessity would you bother to lead a un-ridden horse??

I think someone had to be riding Dustins horse, now of course this could have been a wet nurse I know that is a common theory. But surely if there was a wet nurse there then they had time to take all the bodies to a castle?

So I think the third horse was ridden by Gerold. Think about it. one horse for Ned with baby jon wrapped to his body, one horse for Howland with Lyanna's bod slung over the back of it. and then that horse of Dustins. Ridden by a Squire, ridden by a member of house Dayne, who could smooth their arival at Starfall, who made the suggestion that they could provide a wet nurse, as he knew there was one there. Who smoothed things over so much between lord Stark & Lord Dayne that his son went on to name his child for him. I mean it has always bugged me that Edric Dayne is called Ned.

I can see young Gerold explaining to his cousin that Gerold Hightower was a jerk who refused to get help for the dying Lyanna Stark. who refused to allow her brother access to her on her death bed. Who insisted he fight them to get to her and her son. A son whom Gerold Hightower & the other KG would crown. placing him in a position of certain death. With the Targ loyalists defeated and only 3 knights to protect him from Robert Baratheon.

I think this is why Gerold hates his namesake. I think he as a boy only a few yrs younger than Lyanna herself was deeply upset by Gerold Hightower's behaviour at the ToJ. I think he refused to get her help, and refused to allow her brother to see her, making it pretty much a case of, you want your sister and her child you have to go through us first! So Lord Dayne was made to understand his sons death at Neds hands was honourable. Arthur was keeping his vows and Ned was doing what he had to for his sister. Returning Dawn was the icing on the cake. Ned is a decent chap, and of course he can borrow Wylla.

So Wylla rides the spare horse and they head north where Ned returns it to Barbrey.

Thats my explanation anyhow. I'm sure there are a million holes in it. But there it is.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

snp

Dustin's horse doesn't have to be so weird. Do we know if the fighting was done on foot or on horse? Do we know whether any horses died? Was Ned's horse still 100%, was Howlands? Was one of them riding Dustins horse, or did they perhaps place Lyanna's body on the third horse?

We don't know how many horses they brought back with them. We learn from Lady Dustin about her husbands horse, but perhaps the family of Ethan received his horse, for example. And because we haven't heard from that family, we haven't learned that fact yet.

There was someone else at that tower, that we know. Was it only one person, or were there multiple people?

Ned arrived with 7 horses. Did the KG have horses as well? Or didn't they (for whatever reason) have horses at that tower at that moment? You can fill 3 horses easily (Ned, Howland, Lyanna's body), so any other person at the tower could have ridden on any of the other 4 to 7 horses.

As to where they could have gone.. Do you go for the castle that is closest by? In this case, that would be Nightsong. Or do you go to the castle that is a bit further away, but definitly safer? That would be Starfall, in this case.

Ned wouldn't go somewhere where he wasn't 100% certain that he could trust the people. He could have figured out (from whoever was at the tower) that Starfall was involved (if they were involved), he could have decided that he did not know house Caron good enough (and how could he, having grown up in the Vale and the North?) to trust them, to be certain that they wouldn't talk about a baby..

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Been a while since I dredged my cracked cookware up, but I've been discussing it elsewhere so I thought I'd add in some other thoughts I had.

The horse. Ned returns Barbrey dustins husbands horse. Why? he certainly did not have the time to transport the bodies of the fallen to the nearest castle in order to have them treated by the Silent sisters and the bones sent on to their various homes. We can pretty safely assume that this was due to having a newborn baby to attend to. The nearest castle was Nightsong by the looks of the maps so it would have been fine to take them there it is sworn to the Stormlands and there would be no risk of disgruntled defeated targ loyalists turning them away.

But instead Ned buries them in cairns. Which are made from the dismantled ToJ. Now the time involved in taking the tower down has long been a controversial point. and I agree it seems that to do so would also have been laborious and time consuming. But non the less we know this is what was done. I always just imagine the entire tower was not de constructed but just that they ripped away enough stones to build the cairns.

Anyway my point being why on earth when you are travelling at speed due to necessity would you bother to lead a un-ridden horse??

I think someone had to be riding Dustins horse, now of course this could have been a wet nurse I know that is a common theory. But surely if there was a wet nurse there then they had time to take all the bodies to a castle?

So I think the third horse was ridden by Gerold. Think about it. one horse for Ned with baby jon wrapped to his body, one horse for Howland with Lyanna's bod slung over the back of it. and then that horse of Dustins. Ridden by a Squire, ridden by a member of house Dayne, who could smooth their arival at Starfall, who made the suggestion that they could provide a wet nurse, as he knew there was one there. Who smoothed things over so much between lord Stark & Lord Dayne that his son went on to name his child for him. I mean it has always bugged me that Edric Dayne is called Ned.

I can see young Gerold explaining to his cousin that Gerold Hightower was a jerk who refused to get help for the dying Lyanna Stark. who refused to allow her brother access to her on her death bed. Who insisted he fight them to get to her and her son. A son whom Gerold Hightower & the other KG would crown. placing him in a position of certain death. With the Targ loyalists defeated and only 3 knights to protect him from Robert Baratheon.

I think this is why Gerold hates his namesake. I think he as a boy only a few yrs younger than Lyanna herself was deeply upset by Gerold Hightower's behaviour at the ToJ. I think he refused to get her help, and refused to allow her brother to see her, making it pretty much a case of, you want your sister and her child you have to go through us first! So Lord Dayne was made to understand his sons death at Neds hands was honourable. Arthur was keeping his vows and Ned was doing what he had to for his sister. Returning Dawn was the icing on the cake. Ned is a decent chap, and of course he can borrow Wylla.

So Wylla rides the spare horse and they head north where Ned returns it to Barbrey.

Thats my explanation anyhow. I'm sure there are a million holes in it. But there it is.

I must say i was astonished when i read this but i dont think that Doran or Oberyn would have a big problem with Jon,they do not hold the children for their father's sins.What i think is that Doran thinks he will have no control over Jon,he is a basically a stanger to him and has influence to him and why should he approach him when he thinks there is a slight chance that his sister's son is alive?Again no reason but if Jon

somehow lays a claim because of Darkstar,Doran does not know him and does not have any influence over him,the best thing he can do is to keep the truth to himself and kill the last person who knows it.