Gerold Dayne, Squire at the Tower of joy?

[jlk7e]

So many of you will have seen me floating my little crackpot around for the last few months. I have never really put it all together properly before and so I have decided to lay bare my crackpot for scrutiny...

"Crackpot" is either an adjective, or a noun that refers to a person. You are the crackpot. Your theory is a crackpot theory. Your theory is not a crackpot. Everyone stop using "crackpot" to refer to a crackpot theory!

[Cladinator]

You've put together a good post but I could make the same analysis with many a character.

I can see it now: there will be a post explaining how Patchface was a squire at the TOJ.

[Marcel]

You've put together a good post but I could make the same analysis with many a character.

I can see it now: there will be a post explaining how Patchface was a squire at the TOJ.

There are some basic assumptions here (Let's call R+L=J the zeroth assumption):

1 - Someone besides Eddard Stark, Jon Snow and Howland Reed survived the tower of joy events.

Ned, Jon and Howland are not the only survivors of the tower of joy. There is textual evidence for this, since Ned refers to them ("they") when he remembers his sister's death.

2 - The identity of this survivor did not compromise the maintenance of secrecy

As the identity of Jon's parents remains a secret to all others, then should be of interest to all the survivors that such secrecy is maintained, whether as a result of bonds of loyalty, honor or for personal ou familial gain.

3 - There is a plausible explanation for such survivor being there.

GRRM is an amazing writer.

These are the three most basic assumptions on which I can think of.

Arguably, the first assumption depends on how much we can trust the dreams and delusions of Ned, but if we discard them, there is not much room for conjectures.

Now, it is clear that someone else could be this forth survivor, but I do not think the topic's author's goal is to exhaust the subject, but point out that Gerold Dayne knowing Jon's parentage is an excellent explanation for Doran's observation regarding why he is such dangerous man.

And regarding Patchface, I can easily picture him going alone from his room to the kitchen, but not from Storm's End to Dorne, so I would be delighted to hear such theory.

[Rhaegarslance]

Good luck looking after all your weapons and putting on plate armour on your own. Of course they have squires, all knights need squires. Indeed it's strange that more squires aren't mentioned.

Remember Martin's SSM, just because someone isn't mention it doesn't mean they are not there, every lord and knight and nothern noble would would have a squire, otherwise they wouldn't be able to prepare for battle.

They only have squires when they're out on campaign. Jaime had a couple while dealing with the Riverlands and they were specifically pointed out. If he had squires already, why were some appointed to him here?

[Marcel]

They only have squires when they're out on campaign. Jaime had a couple while dealing with the Riverlands and they were specifically pointed out. If he had squires already, why were some appointed to him here?

That's why I believe that if there was some squire there, then he was Hightowers' squire. Hightower wasn't part of the original group, he was sent there by Aerys, I think he would travel with a squire - he would cross the stormlands so it could be a dangerous trip.

[Rhaegarslance]

Jaime makes it clear that KG do not possess squires

The room was round, its walls of whitewashed stone hung with white woolen tapestries. It formed the first floor of White Sword Tower, a slender structure of four stories built into an angle of the castle wall overlooking the bay. The undercroft held arms and armor, the second and third floors the small spare sleeping cells of the six brothers of the Kingsguard.

One of those cells had been his for eighteen years, but this morning he had moved his things to the topmost floor, which was given over entirely to the Lord Commander’s apartments. Those rooms were spare as well, though spacious; and they were above the outer walls, which meant he would have a view of the sea. I will like that, he thought. The view, and all the rest.

As pale as the room, Jaime sat by the book in his Kingsguard whites, waiting for his Sworn Brothers. A longsword hung from his hip. From the wrong hip. Before he had always worn his sword on his left, and drawn it across his body when he unsheathed. He had shifted it to his right hip this morning, so as to be able to draw it with his left hand in the same manner, but the weight of it felt strange there, and when he had tried to pull the blade from the scabbard the whole motion seemed clumsy and unnatural. His clothing fit badly as well. He had donned the winter raiment of the Kingsguard, a tunic and breeches of bleached white wool and a heavy white cloak, but it all seemed to hang loose on him.

From this passage we see that every room in the White Sword Tower is used by the Kingsguard. Only the Kingsguard therefore sleep in the White Sword Tower, so there's no squires accompanying them day and night. The squires could sleep somewhere else, but we see that the Kingsguards' armour and arms are kept in the undercroft, so the Kingsguard keep their arms and armour with themselves and not their squires so what's the point in having a squire that would have to be summoned from elsewhere to arm them, when Kingsguard need to be ready at all times and work odd shifts? Furthermore, Jaime tells us that he's the one who armed himself, and dressed himself, in the Kingsguard attire that day.

There's no evidence that Kingsguards have squires except when they're specifically out in the field. They don't have them otherwise. So if there was a squire at the TOJ, he wasn't a full time squire for a Kingsguard. He's someone picked up along the way, or specifically appointed.

[Marcel]

Jaime makes it clear that KG do not possess squires

From this passage we see that every room in the White Sword Tower is used by the Kingsguard. Only the Kingsguard therefore sleep in the White Sword Tower, so there's no squires accompanying them day and night. The squires could sleep somewhere else, but we see that the Kingsguards' armour and arms are kept in the undercroft, so the Kingsguard keep their arms and armour with themselves and not their squires so what's the point in having a squire that would have to be summoned from elsewhere to arm them, when Kingsguard need to be ready at all times and work odd shifts? Furthermore, Jaime tells us that he's the one who armed himself, and dressed himself, in the Kingsguard attire that day.

There's no evidence that Kingsguards have squires except when they're specifically out in the field. They don't have them otherwise. So if there was a squire at the TOJ, he wasn't a full time squire for a Kingsguard. He's someone picked up along the way, or specifically appointed.

You may be correct and no king's guard has a squire, but it is hard to believe that anyone could dress armor alone. The passage you described mentioned a light dress, suitable for situations where it is not expected confrontation. The failure to mention rooms for squires in the tower does not mean the squires do not exist, only that they reside elsewhere. The correct assembly of armour is crucial for the survival of a knight, and even if the king's guards help themselves it seems unlikely that they did not have squires. But I agree that it is a valid objection.

[Rhaegarslance]

You may be correct and no king's guard has a squire, but it is hard to believe that anyone could dress armor alone. The passage you described mentioned a light dress, suitable for situations where it is not expected confrontation. The failure to mention rooms for squires in the tower does not mean the squires do not exist, only that they reside elsewhere. The correct assembly of armour is crucial for the survival of a knight, and even if the king's guards help themselves it seems unlikely that they did not have squires. But I agree that it is a valid objection.

Barristan Selmy certainly armed and armoured himself perfectly fine though

The water, when it came, was only lukewarm, but Selmy lingered in the bath until it had grown cold and scrubbed his skin till it was raw. Clean as he had ever been, he rose, dried himself, and clad himself in whites. Stockings, smallclothes, silken tunic, padded jerkin, all fresh-washed and bleached. Over that he donned the armor that the queen had given him as a token of her esteem. The mail was gilded, finely wrought, the links as supple as good leather, the plate enameled, hard as ice and bright as new-fallen snow. His dagger went on one hip, his long-sword on the other, hung from a white leather belt with golden buckles. Last of all he took down his long white cloak and fastened it about his shoulders.

The helm he left upon its hook. The narrow eye slit limited his vision, and he needed to be able to see for what was to come. The halls of the pyramid were dark at night, and foes could come at you from either side. Besides, though the ornate dragon’s wings that adorned the helm were splendid to look upon, they could too easily catch a sword or axe. He would leave them for his next tourney if the Seven should grant him one.

[Marcel]

Barristan Selmy certainly armed and armoured himself perfectly fine though

Yes, I was checking the books and there are textual references to knights preparing to battle alone. However such passages usually involve the possibility of close quarters fights. Barristan is certainly capable of wearing the hauberk with a breastplate alone, but not the full plate armor. Anyway, I always pictured Hightower going to Dorne in full plate armor - after all the rebellion had already begun. There is no reason to not take a squire in such case as he was out in the field. I just don't agree that a knight would just pick some random squire everytime.

[Rhaegarslance]

Yes, I was checking the books and there are textual references to knights preparing to battle alone. However such passages usually involve the possibility of close quarters fights. Barristan is certainly capable of wearing the hauberk with a breastplate alone, but not the full plate armor. Anyway, I always pictured Hightower going to Dorne in full plate armor - after all the rebellion had already begun. There is no reason to not take a squire in such case.

Oh I'm not arguing that Hightower or Dayne, or Whent, or anybody else couldn't have had a squire with them during the Rebellion, or specifically at the TOJ. Just that the Kingsguard do not maintain squires. They don't have one at their beck and call, day and night, like a regular knight or lord would. Rather that they only seem to have one when they're out campaigning.

So Hightower/Dayne/Whent could have had a squire with them at the TOJ. Just that this squire wasn't their squire (i.e doing it full-time in King's Landing and everywhere else the Kingsguard goes), but was appointed to do it temporarily while the Kingsguard was doing duties other than guarding the king in King's Landing.

[Marcel]

Oh I'm not arguing that Hightower or Dayne, or Whent, or anybody else couldn't have had a squire with them during the Rebellion, or specifically at the TOJ. Just that the Kingsguard do not maintain squires. They don't have one at their beck and call, day and night, like a regular knight or lord would. Rather that they only seem to have one when they're out campaigning.

So Hightower/Dayne/Whent could have had a squire with them at the TOJ. Just that this squire wasn't their squire (i.e doing it full-time in King's Landing and everywhere else the Kingsguard goes), but was appointed to do it temporarily while the Kingsguard was doing duties other than guarding the king in King's Landing.

I see no reason for a knight to stop having squires because he is part of the King's Guard. Perhaps the servants in King's Landing make many of the duties of squires redundant, but there are specific tasks in the battlefield involving trust and loyalty that I find incompatible with choosing a different squire every time. So they have a pool of squires to choose at the gates of the Red Keep? It's possible and I understand your point, but I don't think it's that important for this theory, because it's a position in the court anyway, one that would provide training in arms and appears to be something respectful for a small boy.

Since Hightower was sent to summon Rhaegar in Dorne, perhaps he entered the squire's office and shouted: "Who here knows Dorne ?" And a young Gerold Dayne raised his hand. When he left to deal with Riverrun, Jaime picked two squire from the Riverlands (Paege and Piper) and, just in case, one from the Westerlands (Peckledon). Perhaps picking a squire that is from some house closer to the destination is not an unusual practice.

[Fauxdor]

If anything, he could have been a witness at R and L's wedding (if there was one).

This would make him equally as dangerous. He may not be able to confirm Jon's parentage, but he may be able to verify Jon's legitimacy. If he was at the 'wedding', he may not know the implications of real story of the ToJ. He jmight just think he was at Rhaegar's wedding, but then he died so it doesn't matter at this point. He could have no knowledge at all of a baby being born out of it.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Somebody had to do the drudge work, Finding food and water

[Maidenpool?]

Forget Gerold being at R and L's wedding, or even being at the TOJ.

What if Gerold was just a ten/eleven/twelve year old at Starfall when Ned Stark and Howland Reed come riding up with Dawn and a new baby? What if he simply swore an oath that day to go along with the lie that Ned's baby was Willa's and not R+L's? He would have had general knowledge that Lyanna had been pregnant and close by... surely he put two and two together.

And after that, maybe the Martell's tortured him for this information - to break his oath - possibly Oberyn did it ("I was weaned on venom"). Did they get the truth out of him? I don't know, but it could be why Prince Doran calls Gerold the "most dangerous man in Dorne." Not because of his combat abilities necessarily, but because of something he knows.

Also, Ashara Dayne - did she kill herself/fake kill herself to escape the oncoming torture from the Martell's? Or was it due to grief? Or did Varys show up and tell her Aegon is still alive and to not tell anyone... and to sneak away to Essos or wherever?

...who knows. But what I do know is while R+L=J is interesting, I am far more interested in what exactly went down at Starfall right after.

[Chilli]

He might not have been an official squire, but he could have been there to help Arthur Dayne getting food and other things. I thought High Hermitage is between the Tower of Joy and Starfall. He could have seen some things by accident. I don't think he knows the whole truth, but he might have seen Lyanna pregnant or baby Jon.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Perhaps Gerold Dayne is not part the side branch of the Daynes , Gerold was the younger brother of Ashara Dayne , who's loyalty is to the Starks.