Blood and Origin of House Stark

[Han Snow]

BLOOD AND ORIGIN OF HOUSE STARK:

So I don't really have to time to go through all the previous threads made, but I hope this has not already been discussed to death, but I've been thinking about something

recently, in light of the tweet made by Ran that his pet theory got confirmed for WOIAF. Here I'm assuming that it is the idea that Targs actually have dragon blood in them, a question arose in my mind: do their ice counterparts, the Starks, have special blood as well?

So assuming Targs actually have dragon blood, literal dragon blood, by whatever means, flowing through their veins, my guess is that the Starks also have more then just human blood flowing through theirs. Specifically, they have actual COTF blood mixed with human.

My theory coming from this is that the Last Hero made a blood pact with the COTF so they would stop/revoke?/help with the WWs during the Long Night. He had to marry a high ranking (royal?) female COTF and force the people to worship the Old Gods again. Their offspring was Brandon the Builder, who was short of stature but high with magical powers. Often mistaken by the common people for a kid, he visited the kingdoms of men and gave advice, helped build, infuse with power some of the special buildings that stand even in todays Westeros (Storm's End...).

What he certainly did, was that he continued building his father's stronghold in the North, the one that the Children have chosen for the Last Hero, and that was Winterfell. It was built on some kind of sacred place for COTF and was part of the magical pact made with TLH. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell!" or shit starts to happen, like the forthcoming Long Night 2.0. Anyways, later in life, Brandon also made the magical foundation blocks for the great ice Wall.

With time Starks married other families and COTF genetic markings like height, claw like fingers, catlike eyes, simply receded and with even more time, disappeared fully. My belief is that the little crannogmen (Jojen, Meera, Howland Reed...) also breeded with COTF or with early Starks and by keeping their community tight and secluded, they managed to keep more of the COTF features: deep and murky green eyes, short height and greenseeing abilities. Also, if Ghost of High Heart is really a thousand years old, she too is probably a human/COTF crossbreed.

tl;dr: Starks were established as a noble House in the North when the Last Hero married a female COTF in exchange for their help to end the Long Night and depose of the White Walkers. Brandon the Builder is their child, the first Stark. Main point being: Starks have literal COTF blood flowing through their veins.

For even more fun read the addendum!!!

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

BLOOD AND ORIGIN OF HOUSE STARK:

With time Starks married other families and COTF genetic markings like height, claw like fingers, catlike eyes, simply receded and with even more time, disappeared fully. My belief is that the little crannogmen (Jojen, Meera, Howland Reed...) also breeded with COTF or with early Starks and by keeping their community tight and secluded, they managed to keep more of the COTF features: deep and murky green eyes, short height and greenseeing abilities. Also, if Ghost of High Heart is really a thousand years old, she too is probably a human/COTF crossbreed.

For even more fun read the addendum!!!

What if the practice of the lords first night isn't about demonstrating his power over his subjects but rather as a means to pass on his bloodline without the problems associated with inbreeding. (See Mad King Aerys' meltdown)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Good topic! More or less in line with what I think as well, in general terms. You've laid it out nicely and arrived at some interesting conclusions.

I have to admit I haven't read the entire addendum though. I'll read it through when my mind is fresh on the morrow and hopefully be able to offer some more detailed feedback. :)

[BaleTheGuard]

You really piqued my interest, right up until the sudden and inexplicable inclusion of House Dayne into a story about House Stark and the North.

Thus proving that all theories must involve at least one Dayne, whether it be the Sword of the Morning, Dorkstar, Dawn, Starfall, or just the House in general.

[Kennedy the Keen]

For tomorrow

[Kat]

Mod: This is a reminder than fanfic (including fanfic disguised as theories, or theories disguised as fanfic) is not allowed on this forum. Thanks!

[Olligarchy]

This is a really interesting thought, though has it been established the Men and CotF can even interbreed?

[Mrs. Tyrion Lannister]

My mind has had similar wanderings, though few if any were so well-organized. Poor Dead Ned's line about the blood of the First Men flowing strong through the Starks' veins crept into the back of my mind and took up residence there early on in my first read. It seemed more important than simple world-building or laying the foundation for keeping the Old Gods.

I'm not sure how I feel about Brandon the Builder being a small man of half-CotF blood, but it's not especially implausible either. I don't feel like there's enough information available to consider it as likely as, say, R+L=J. There are some timeline discrepancies that give me pause. But again, based on what little information we have, the theory isn't impossible.

In terms of actual magical blood, the dragonlords having a blood bond with dragons does seem plausible to me, at least to an extent, though I tend to think such a thing would have been accomplished via magic (blood magic) rather than, erm, mating with fire-breathing lizards. That seems like a risky proposition at best.

The possibility of the Crannogmen being descended from the CofF (or some unknown hybrid) seems pretty likely, and could potentially have happened the good old-fashioned way. If that's the case, there's no reason why the Starks couldn't have magic in their veins, too.

It's pretty easy to get carried away with such thoughts, though. Remember Jon and Arya's conversation about quartering the Stark and Tully sigils for her own personal coat of arms? She suggested a wolf with a fish in its mouth. Laughter ensued.

Now that I'm thinking about it, though, maybe that's why poor Edmure flops around like an idiot... It's the trout blood! :D

[Ygrain]

I vaguely recall having proposed something similar, once - I don't recall where I dug it up but I think it is mentioned somewhere that a Stark married a Marsh King's daughter. If Marsh king = king of crannogmen, here we go with the inclusion of some special blood into the Stark gene pool.

[mindchap]

And what happens if it turns out to be a drop of WW blood instead of CotF blood? Surely I can't be the only one to wonder this.

[Ygrain]

And what happens if it turns out to be a drop of WW blood instead of CotF blood? Surely I can't be the only one to wonder this.

Surely not - given certain Stark's involvement with a pale lady from the woods who was very much interested in obtaining his seed.

[mindchap]

Surely not - given certain Stark's involvement with a pale lady from the woods who was very much interested in obtaining his seed.

Usually I try not to mention it but with the OP if the Targs do somehow have a drop of dragon blood, then Other blood would complete the IaF theme. Sorry for the thread jack but since there seem to be some open minds here I had to ask. I do like the theory either way though. :)

[King Tam Stark]

And what happens if it turns out to be a drop of WW blood instead of CotF blood? Surely I can't be the only one to wonder this.

or some wolf's blood

[joluoto2]

And what happens if it turns out to be a drop of WW blood instead of CotF blood? Surely I can't be the only one to wonder this.

I know there was a theory at some point that Starks + WW= Boltons. Not sure where though, might not be on this board since I can't find the thread.

[Han Snow]

Revisited Addendum (I removed the fan fictiony dialogue and stuff, though all fan theories on a discussion board about a series of books that are not even finished yet are fan fiction in and of themselves, so I don’t see what harm can a little dialogue and more vivid descriptions do, except to better the immersion for other users, but, yeah, ok, rules are rules.)

THE LAST HERO/AZOR AHAI

Well, I also have a theory about who was the Last Hero that started the House Stark.

Tummm tumm tum! Here it goes: He was a Dayne. House Dayne is supposedly ancient, and older then Starks and the rest of the great houses. They have distinctively Valyrian features without those features being inherited by marrying with Targs. So my take is this:

They were the proto Valyrians that settled in Westeros before the rise of the great Valyrian freehold in Essos and the discovery of dragons in the Fourteen Fires, but after the Arm of Dorne was shattered. They kept contact with Essos and some of their Valyrian customs, but most importantly, they had the knowledge of making steel. Which they guarded for themselves, of course. So when the Long Night came... Concerning the Long Night, I don't believe it was a literal night that lasted for 100 years, but it's more likely that it was the harshest Winter that Planetos had ever known, magical in nature, which completely froze the North, so days were just a couple of hours long there and not much could be grown and WW's were having their picnic, slaughtering where they could. Eventually winter reached Dorne and the dead rose even there. Heck, even Essos had their climate changed. So the Long Night fell and engulfed Westeros and after a while even Daynes in Dorne felt its dire consequences. So they acted, some escaped back to Essos where the people of their ancient motherland had just found mighty beast lizards sleeping, buried deep in the pits. Interesting times those were. And yes, with ones who survived the trip back to Essos came the stories of dead men coming back to life and Ice Demons with blue eyes killing everyone that had warm blood. Those who heard them were willing to believe, considering that winters were never strong in Essos until recently.

But not all fled to Essos. The best and bravest of the Daynes took a host of men and ventured into the North. His goal: to find the home of those Ice demons and end their

reign of terror. He was armed with the milky pale sword forged from the meteor that caused the shattering of two continents at the Arm of Dorne, which fragments could still be found around the place where they settled at, so they named it Starfall. The sword would later be named Dawn and its wielder The Sword of the Morning. Rest of his men had regular steel (weaving spells while forging steel would become practice later, after Valyria rose to power, so Dayne's men had regular steel but still better then plain iron and more effective against WWs).

“I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

“Dragonsteel?” Jon frowned. “Valyrian steel?” AFFC, chaper 5, Samwell

Armed with his special sword and brave men wielding steel, the Dayne hero managed to win some victories against the wights and their cold masters. So north he went, freeing holdfasts and castles, losing more and more men and their steel, but all the while learning more and more about the history of the First Men and their pact with the humanoid creatures who they called the Children.

So his companions died, his horse died and he was left alone with the wolf put that he found at the beginning of the journey, except wolf wasn’t a pup anymore. At the end of his strengths he found the place where winter fell. A sacred weirwood grove with hot springs. There the Children revealed themselves to him. In order to gain their support against the WWs, he had to agree to their demands. So the new pact was made. After consuming the blood paste he managed to communicate with them. And he accepted their demands. He took one of the female COTF as his wife and soon she bore him a son. She died birthing the child because her body wasn’t made to deliver a human/COTF hybrid. He named the son Brandon. Conditions of the new pact were that his son and all his descendants will rule from this sacred place of theirs (where Winter Fell because men had done something horrible, like killing COTF or trying to desecrate the weirwoods or something so COTF changed their song and their pain and anguish woke the WWs in the far North and even stirred the dragons in their sleep all the way in Essos) and they’ll worship the Old Gods and respect the old ways and so long as there is a descendant of their blood here, the pact will hold.

In the meantime his deeds and valor in combat against the WWs had spread among the people of the North. The Last Hero to save them all had come to take the stand against the forces of the Night. People started coming to the sacred place. The Hero took the name Stark and gave people the obsidian weapons left by the Children. After some years the foundations of Winterfell were built. His son, though very young, showed extreme intelligence and something more. The boy was naturally in tune with the weirwood network and he communicated with the Children often. Soon he started teaching the old ways to the common folk, who loved him. But the Hero knew that his mission was not finished. White Walkers were not defeated, they still had their picnic harvests where ever they went, raising the dead to go with them. So he rallied all the men he could find. Promising to other lords of the land that the Long Night will not end until men take their stand together, united against the Ice Gods. So began the last battle of the war, battle for the Dawn.

The Hero and his new army pressed North. Aided by his son Bran communicating with the Children through weirwoods, he found the White Walkers and engaged them. The battle was won and the enemy retreated to the lands of the far north from which they came from. The cost of the victory was great. The army of men prevailed, but they were nearly exterminated themselves. ¾ of the men died, including the Hero himself. Brandon grieved, but knew that it had to be like this. He burned his father’s body and took the milky pale greatsword that he wielded on a journey to the place where it was once forged, to Starfall of Dorne.

The journey was long and eventful. He stopped at many places, teaching and helping in any way he could. He helped even when stubborn kings decided to defy nature and build a castle on a cliff often plagued by heavy storms (Storm’s End). The men knew who he was and offered him hospitality and respect. He shared his wisdom and brought enlightenment wherever he went. After reaching Starfall and giving the greatsword to the one he found the most worthy of his cousins from House Dayne, reports had reached him from where he came from. People were again going missing in the North. This troubled him so he hurried back to Winterfell. There he gave instructions how to build the rest of the major structures and managed to fall in love with a Reed/Marsh girl which he promptly married after learning that she was pregnant. After his son was born and the construction of Winterfell was nearly finished, he went with a host of men to the place where his father had won the battle for the Dawn. There the Children were waiting. They revealed that the WWs can not be completely subdued and that the best thing for the kingdoms of men would be to built a fortification on this place, a magical Wall, powerful enough to ward them from the Cold Lords if they ever grow in strength again to attack. But the Children will be in possession of a safety key, a Horn that can tear the Wall down if men ever stray from the pact again. The ones that will guard the Wall had to make an oath to abide the old ways and Old Gods and the proto Night’s Watch was founded.

With time, the legend of the Last Hero spread even through the vast continent of Essos, where the Dragons and their masters grew in power after the WWS were defeated. Different religions made their own versions of the events, but one especially, where the Last Hero became Azor Ahai and the legend of his pale milky sword mixed with the birth of his son turned into forging of a magical fiery sword called Lightbringer…

[Han Snow]

You really piqued my interest, right up until the sudden and inexplicable inclusion of House Dayne into a story about House Stark and the North.

Thus proving that all theories must involve at least one Dayne, whether it be the Sword of the Morning, Dorkstar, Dawn, Starfall, or just the House in general.

Daynes are the only ones that fit in what little we know of the stuff that happened during the Long Night. I have no other special affection for them.

And what happens if it turns out to be a drop of WW blood instead of CotF blood? Surely I can't be the only one to wonder this.

It could be, only GRRM knows, but I'm more inclined to go with COTF.

I know there was a theory at some point that Starks + WW= Boltons. Not sure where though, might not be on this board since I can't find the thread.

Interesting theory.

[Mrs. Tyrion Lannister]

I like this topic a lot. It's my favorite recent thread on this site. Certainly it is more entertaining than arguing the relative merits and faults of Stannis (or Dany) - AGAIN.

OP - I am glad you mentioned that you had removed whatever FF-y elements the mod had been concerned about. I read and reread your post and couldn't find any FF, then decided I must be unable to spot FF. I was scared that my Trout Blood theory might fall under that umbrella. :) Anyway, it all makes a little more sense now.

Speculation about a Dayne founding House Stark was interesting, especially since the Daynes and Starfall were mentioned in Catelyn's very first POV chapter, almost as though we were meant to vaguely associate the two Houses with one another.

I also liked that you tied in the Essosi religious element. It has always baffled me that Rh'llorism is so focused on Azor Ahai and the Long Night when, at least from the perspectives we're given in the novels, the Long Night was largely a Westerosi concern and no one (no one normal, anyway) has any familiarity whatsoever with AA, at least by that name. The prophecies Rhaegar concerned himself with were said to come from the East.

I do still have conflicts and doubts and such, as I mentioned in my earlier post. But I'm glad you started this topic. It made my day. :)

PS: Stark blood - it could have "a drop" of just about anything. Children of the Forest blood does fit with this theory, with Bran's greenseeing and general Stark warginess. As mentioned by others, White Walker DNA would complete the "ice and fire" theme, though I had thought the WWs didn't have blood, at least not hot red blood of the human type. I could be wrong on that, though. "Wolf blood" would similarly make sense thematically, what with Viserys' brotherly concern that Dany might "wake the dragon" and the "wolf's blood" that Ned blamed for his brother Brandon's impractical actions and ultimate demise.

[Turin Turambar1]

And what happens if it turns out to be a drop of WW blood instead of CotF blood? Surely I can't be the only one to wonder this.

:agree: I definitely root for this theory , there's many links to them , i have a crackpot theory that the Starks will team up with the WW ( and maybe Stannis also will join )

[Han Snow]

I like this topic a lot. It's my favorite recent thread on this site. Certainly it is more entertaining than arguing the relative merits and faults of Stannis (or Dany) - AGAIN.

OP - I am glad you mentioned that you had removed whatever FF-y elements the mod had been concerned about. I read and reread your post and couldn't find any FF, then decided I must be unable to spot FF. I was scared that my Trout Blood theory might fall under that umbrella. :) Anyway, it all makes a little more sense now.

Speculation about a Dayne founding House Stark was interesting, especially since the Daynes and Starfall were mentioned in Catelyn's very first POV chapter, almost as though we were meant to vaguely associate the two Houses with one another.

I also liked that you tied in the Essosi religious element. It has always baffled me that Rh'llorism is so focused on Azor Ahai and the Long Night when, at least from the perspectives we're given in the novels, the Long Night was largely a Westerosi concern and no one (no one normal, anyway) has any familiarity whatsoever with AA, at least by that name. The prophecies Rhaegar concerned himself with were said to come from the East.

I do still have conflicts and doubts and such, as I mentioned in my earlier post. But I'm glad you started this topic. It made my day. :)

PS: Stark blood - it could have "a drop" of just about anything. Children of the Forest blood does fit with this theory, with Bran's greenseeing and general Stark warginess. As mentioned by others, White Walker DNA would complete the "ice and fire" theme, though I had thought the WWs didn't have blood, at least not hot red blood of the human type. I could be wrong on that, though. "Wolf blood" would similarly make sense thematically, what with Viserys' brotherly concern that Dany might "wake the dragon" and the "wolf's blood" that Ned blamed for his brother Brandon's impractical actions and ultimate demise.

Thanks for the kind words. :)

The name of House Dayne's ancestral sword (Dawn), that is curiously made from the fallen star, and the title that its wielder takes on (Sword of the Morning) are too much to just be coincidences and not be in some direct relation with the Long Night and the actual Battle for The Dawn. So yeah... It my be that the COTF even showed a way to the Last Hero on how to use blood to light the sword on fire. So the sword may have indeed burned when he fought with it, but thanks to the material from which it was made the metal never decayed.

On the religion subject; yes my take is that some of the proto Valyrian people had fled back to Essos during the LN, but still kept communication and heard news when more people came running across the Narrow Sea. So after the war against the WWs was won and Brandon "the Builder" Stark returned his father's sword to the Dayne's in Starfall (kind of like Ned does after RR :)), all the stories surrounding the event crossed the continent and turned into the basis for the religion of the Red God that will later emerge. It could even be that those proto Valyrians in Starfall actually changed their name to Day-ne after Bran returned the sword and told his father's tale to them.

It's kind of a circle, everything is connected, folding back upon itself, devouring its tail like Ouroboros.

So WW's are defeated, the legend of TLH grows, spreads all the way to Essos. Where, caused indirectly by the events in Westeros, the dragons have woken and Valryians are learning to control them... House Targaryen may even be descended from those people that fled back from Westeros during the LN, etc. All my speculation though, who knows how GRRM has envisioned it (well, we may actually find it out in the WOIAF) but the bolded part should be true enough regardless.

I had thought the WWs didn't have blood, at least not hot red blood of the human type.

This is my view also, but considering the Night's King tale it may not be true. (His relations with the WW female and his seed coming from that union would suggest some kind of a biological mechanism in WW's similar to human). But my view on that is that it was just propaganda to slander and discredit the Stark on the Wall that didn't have similar ideas to the Stark in Winterfell of the time. Those ideas being: to make peace with the Andal invaders and allow their burning of the Weirwoods and abandoning of the old ways everywhere except in the North. So the Stark on the Wall rebelled against his cousin in Winterfell accusing him of betraying the pact made with the COTF.

Anyway, I think that the Children are extremely important. Their powers, their song, their blood magic and blood sacrifice... They are somehow connected with everything. Maybe TLH had to give them a blood sacrifice (his last 12 companion friends?) before they helped him, and later made an actual blood pact through his son Brandon (man/COTF offspring). Though I wonder about Asshai and how that far, far east relates to everything. If there is only a vast ocean between that far east and not another continent...hmmm... maybe the song that Children sang after the First Men violated the pact for the first time, the song which woke the White Walkers and stirred the Dragons of Valyria from their slumber, maybe it stirred something in that far east of Essos. There is that legend of Nagga the sea dragon in Iron Islands. Maybe it heard the song in Asshai and tried to reach Westeros but made a stop at Iron Islands... Just thinking here. :P

[Mrs. Tyrion Lannister]

Dayne. Oh, I feel so stupid right now. Of course the name is a huge clue and now that you've opened my eyes, it seems so obvious! Starfall, Dawn, Sword of the Morning, Dayne. Now more than ever, I think there are hugely important things in store for Ned Dayne, the young Lord of Starfall.

I had always felt like the White Woman (and her interest in the seed/soul of a powerful man) was just a parallel to Melisandre, the Red Woman who used Stannis' seed for nefarious deeds. I guess that doesn't preclude her from having a human-ish reproductive system. If anything, a similarity to Mel would imply that perhaps the White Woman was part human herself, or maybe had been once.

But something is definitely off with the Night's King. Nowhere else in Planetos do we see a person's name very deliberately wiped from human history while their (alleged) misdeeds are remembered in songs and histories. I will have to pay extra special attention to the story of the Night's King during my current (very slow) reread.

Was the Night's King definitely a Stark? I remember Old Nan suggesting that he was, and remember that the Stark in Winterfell joined forces with the King Beyond the Wall to put an end to the NK's holding the Watch in thrall - but do we know for sure that he was a Stark?

Definitely I agree that the Children of the Forest are extremely important. I don't remember reading that the Children were responsible for calling forth the WW (though it's a detail I could easily have missed), but I definitely thought they were related anyway, maybe playing for the same team. That thought process (for me) developed when I began to understand the enormity of Craster's "sacrifices" and tied that to his insistence that he was "a godly man."

It is maddening to me that we don't know what other land masses, if any, exist on Planetos. It's clever to stick to the incomplete knowledge of the world at large, but it still drives me nuts. That, and that there won't be time for any side trips to Asshai on Dany's journey. But we may learn more about the origin of Rh'llorism in the next book, since our collection of Red Priest characters has grown.