Rhaegar and Aegon

[Wmarshal]

point being?

i'm nowhere close to being a dany fan, and stannis was never a villain, but Aegriff is a goner anyway.

I meant his look and the way he was introduced not his real personality and traits.

Nothing is set in stone Aegon can still beat Dany and live till the end.

[Whatever]

I meant his look and the way he was introduced not his real personality and traits.

Nothing is set in stone Aegon can still beat Dany and live till the end.

His look has nothing to do with it. He was introduced too late in the story to be a final player, he's by far the best candidate, his second has greyscale and there's the mummer's dragon foreshadowing to consider. All you need is a little genre savviness to know that he won't survive, but it doesn't mean I like the idea.

[pdt1028]

The conviction that Rhaegar would have been the best king ever is really very similar to Robert's conviction that if he had been able to marry Lyanna none of the bad things in his life would have happened.

It is a combination of dissatisfaction with the current status, the potential for a significant difference that was cut short by an unexpected death, and looking backward to a time that seemed to be happier.

[Whatever]

The conviction that Rhaegar would have been the best king ever is really very similar to Robert's conviction that if he had been able to marry Lyanna none of the bad things in his life would have happened.

It is a combination of dissatisfaction with the current status, the potential for a significant difference that was cut short by an unexpected death, and looking backward to a time that seemed to be happier.

:agree: but unlike with Robert, in which we have half the Lyanna/Robert equation, Rhaegar is dead and pretty much a blank state, so saying that he would have been terrible is just without basis. I maintain that he would have been a huge improvement over Aerys, and wouldn't have let Westeros go to shit like Robert did, and of this much I am certain - even because, let's face it, being better than Aerys and Robert (who let J. Arryn do all the work) is not that hard.

[pdt1028]

Everyone knew that Aerys was seriously unhinged.

Crazy Aerys<<<<<<<Maybe a little off but not anywhere near as bad as dear old dad Rhaegar

Then again Robert got stuck with Cersei, so I don't know that there is really all that much difference after all

[Bob Sacamano]

:agree: but unlike with Robert, in which we have half the Lyanna/Robert equation, Rhaegar is dead and pretty much a blank state, so saying that he would have been terrible is just without basis. I maintain that he would have been a huge improvement over Aerys, and wouldn't have let Westeros go to shit like Robert did, and of this much I am certain - even because, let's face it, being better than Aerys and Robert (who let J. Arryn do all the work) is not that hard.

No one can argue that Rhaegar would have been worse than Aerys. However, I am unconvinced Rhaegar would have been better than Robert. The tourney and subsequent vacation with Lyanna, and absence from most of RR shows Rhaegar can be pretty selfish and not pragmatic. While Robert was far from a great ruler, he wasn't completely awful.

One thing Rhaegar does have in an unquestioned line of succession. If Robert had the same thing, a trueborn, unquestioned heir, I believe his rule could be looked at in a much better light.

[Whatever]

No one can argue that Rhaegar would have been worse than Aerys. However, I am unconvinced Rhaegar would have been better than Robert. The tourney and subsequent vacation with Lyanna, and absence from most of RR shows Rhaegar can be pretty selfish and not pragmatic. While Robert was far from a great ruler, he wasn't completely awful.

One thing Rhaegar does have in an unquestioned line of succession. If Robert had the same thing, a trueborn, unquestioned heir, I believe his rule could be looked at in a much better light.

Robert wasn't a ruler - he had Jon Arryn doing everything for him. I already argued that IMO Rhaegar, obsessed as he was, would have done his best to hva ethe kingdom 'in shape' for the Others - his 'vacation with Lyanna', as terrible as it ended up being, was him trying to fulfil the prophecy (for the kingdom rather than for personal gain) and not a love fling.

BTW, Robert does have an heir to the eyes of the kingdom. Most of the smallfolk doesn't believe the incest thing - only a few nobles do, barring the ones who don't think Stannis is spreading lies to take the throne and the ones who just refuse to consider the idea.

[Bob Sacamano]

Robert wasn't a ruler - he had Jon Arryn doing everything for him. I already argued that IMO Rhaegar, obsessed as he was, would have done his best to hva ethe kingdom 'in shape' for the Others - his 'vacation with Lyanna', as terrible as it ended up being, was him trying to fulfil the prophecy (for the kingdom rather than for personal gain) and not a love fling.

BTW, Robert does have an heir to the eyes of the kingdom. Most of the smallfolk doesn't believe the incest thing - only a few nobles do, barring the ones who don't think Stannis is spreading lies to take the throne and the ones who just refuse to consider the idea.

I believe he would have done his best. But, I don't necessarily believe that his best would have been all that great. You also have to think of the ramifications of polygamy, too. I know there is precedent, but not for a long time (since Maegor??). I think he would have spent his lifetime figuring out the prophecy. How would he have handled having a son, Jon, instead of the expected daughter?? Would he have found a 3rd women to fulfill his interperation of "the Dragon has 3 heads?"

And I know the smallfolk may believe Joff and Tom to be legititmate, but it was them being bastards, and the investigations from Jon Arryn and Stannis, ending with the Ned, that helped propel the war.

[averde]

You guys are arguing Rhaegar would be a good king because he was following the prophecy and was preparing for the white walkers. For all we know this could have easily just lead to another tragedy like Summerhall. In no way have we been given evidence that Rhaegar would be a good king. Where Robert spent all the gold on feasts and all his time on drink and whores, Rhaegar could spend all the money on dragon eggs and other "magical items" and all his time destroying political alliances by sexing up a new highborn lady every time to "fulfill the prophecy". Also just because we as the reader know the white walkers are real we can't blame someone like Robert for not knowing and not preparing.

[Whatever]

You guys are arguing Rhaegar would be a good king because he was following the prophecy and was preparing for the white walkers. For all we know this could have easily just lead to another tragedy like Summerhall. In no way have we been given evidence that Rhaegar would be a good king. Where Robert spent all the gold on feasts and all his time on drink and whores, Rhaegar could spend all the money on dragon eggs and other "magical items" and all his time destroying political alliances by sexing up a new highborn lady every time to "fulfill the prophecy". Also just because we as the reader know the white walkers are real we can't blame someone like Robert for not knowing and not preparing.

In no way we have been given evidence that he'd be a great king - except for a few people thinking so. Actually, basically everyone who knew him. AND we haven't been given evidence that he'd be a bad king either.

[Wmarshal]

His look has nothing to do with it. He was introduced too late in the story to be a final player, he's by far the best candidate, his second has greyscale and there's the mummer's dragon foreshadowing to consider. All you need is a little genre savviness to know that he won't survive, but it doesn't mean I like the idea.

I am sorry I meant Stannis. Yeah The law of Martin doesn't look to good for him. But aren't we aloud to hope?

[corbon]

Why did Brandon go to King's Landing? Oh yeah because Rhaegar took Lyanna not just to scream at Aerys. He looked first at his home because he told no one where he was.

You seem to completely miss the point.

Sure, thats obviously why he went there.

But when he got there he didn't ask how she was, didn't ask to speak to her, didn't ask for her return, didn't display any care for her fate at all. At least not that Jaime (who has no reason to lie in this case) recounts.

So you have a mad young nobleman publically yelling treason outside the keep of the paranoid king. Punishable by death. And not even any reason why backing it up.

At that point right there, Lyanna and Rhaegar became a total sideshow. Sure, its a big deal breaking a betrothal, but these things happen. And can be fixed.

But publically yelling Treason out of nowhere is not just a big deal, its a Big Deal with Permanent and Fatal consequences. A generous and lenient king could have fixed it, especially after the reason behind it came out. But Aerys, even before his true madness showed through at the trial, wasn't known as generous or lenient.

In no way we have been given evidence that he'd be a great king - except for a few people thinking so. Actually, basically everyone who knew him. AND we haven't been given evidence that he'd be a bad king either.

Right. Everyone who knew him, from the commoners who didn't really know him properly, to Barristan who knew him very well, to Ned who barely knew him but understood more about him and highly respected him and those around him, appears to think good things of him. The only person who has anything bad to say is Robert, who is clearly almost literally insanely biased.

We have a lot of readers who make heavy judgements about things they understand very poorly based on data mostly entirely absent, who condemn him as a bad king based on the results on a few events that are heavily skewed by foolish and irresponsible actions of other players of the game.

I'd prefer to trust the judgement of the players, who both know more of him as a person than us, and who understand the game better, over readers who don't have a clue about either.

[Wmarshal]

You seem to completely miss the point.

Sure, thats obviously why he went there.

But when he got there he didn't ask how she was, didn't ask to speak to her, didn't ask for her return, didn't display any care for her fate at all. At least not that Jaime (who has no reason to lie in this case) recounts.

So you have a mad young nobleman publically yelling treason outside the keep of the paranoid king. Punishable by death. And not even any reason why backing it up.

At that point right there, Lyanna and Rhaegar became a total sideshow. Sure, its a big deal breaking a betrothal, but these things happen. And can be fixed.

But publically yelling Treason out of nowhere is not just a big deal, its a Big Deal with Permanent and Fatal consequences. A generous and lenient king could have fixed it, especially after the reason behind it came out. But Aerys, even before his true madness showed through at the trial, wasn't known as generous or lenient.

Right. Everyone who knew him, from the commoners who didn't really know him properly, to Barristan who knew him very well, to Ned who barely knew him but understood more about him and highly respected him and those around him, appears to think good things of him. The only person who has anything bad to say is Robert, who is clearly almost literally insanely biased.

We have a lot of readers who make heavy judgements about things they understand very poorly based on data mostly entirely absent, who comdemn him as a bad king based on the results on a few events that are heavily skewed by follish and irresponsible actions of other players of the game.

I'd prefer to trust the judgement of the players, who both know more of him as a person than us, and who understand the game better, over readers

He went to the kill his sister's rapist not her boyfriend.

We don't know if he didn't mention Lyanna before entering the throne room or in it. I doubt Jaime gave us the whole encounter it seem he was paraphrasing

Ned did not respect him he just think he was not into whores.

Barristan basically had nothing but he was good at tourneys when he was fishing for things to say nice about him to Dany. He did nothing with his life of note and he ruled dragonstone.

[corbon]

1. He went to the kill his sister's rapist not her boyfriend.

2. We don't know if he didn't mention Lyanna before entering the throne room or in it. I doubt Jaime gave us the whole encounter it seem he was paraphrasing

3. Ned did not respect him he just think he was not into whores.

4. Barristan basically had nothing but he was good at tourneys when he was fishing for things to say nice about him to Dany. He did nothing with his life of note and he ruled dragonstone.

1. You have no idea what he knew, or thought he knew.

2. We have information with no reason to doubt its veracity. You don't get to invent more data because you want to. You have to assess the data we have. There is no reason for Jaime to paraphrase Lyanna's name out of that first challenge at the gates (it woud have been a major factor in later events) and once that challenge is issued the whole game has changed.

Interestingly not a single source mentions Lyanna again when the lead up to the war is discussed. Once Brandon opens his mouth its like she never existed until after the war.

3. He clearly respects Rhaegar over Robert, despite his friendship with Robert, on several occasions, and has the highest respect for Rhaegars closest friend, Arthur Dayne. If you want to know someone, look at the people they are close to.

4. Barristan was around Rhaegar generally for Rhaegar's entire life. He may not have been an intimate, but he had more than enough opportunity to assess his character, capabilities and personality. And compare Rhaegar, and his potential, to other Targaryen Kings. If there is one person anywhere that can give us the best indication its Barristan, and he tells us that Rhaegar could have been the greatest Targaryen King of them all, while in practically the same breath telling Dany that Aerys was a bad king and there were issues if she is ready to listen, so proving that he isn't just being biased toward Targs or telling Dany what she wanted to hear.

But of course, feel free to dismiss the facts which are inconvenient in favour of the narrative you have decided upon. :cool4:

[Fred of Ashai]

I think the one thing we can count on is that Rhaegar already screwed up his reign before it even started (if R+L = J is true).

Remember the time Jon and Robb were playing at swords and Jon said something about fighting with Ice? Robb explained that Jon could not wield Ice because he was a bastard and Catelyn says only the Lord of Winterfell could wield Ice.

Now imagine instead that this was Aegon and Jon. Jon says "I'm the king." Aegon says "you can't be king, my mother says so." And Jon says "according to my mother, I can be king. All that has to happen is for you to die...". Or "what makes you think you're first, Father loves my mother more and he can name any heir he likes in his will...".

[Wmarshal]

1. You have no idea what he knew, or thought he knew.

2. We have information with no reason to doubt its veracity. You don't get to invent more data because you want to. You have to assess the data we have. There is no reason for Jaime to paraphrase Lyanna's name out of that first challenge at the gates (it woud have been a major factor in later events) and once that challenge is issued the whole game has changed.

Interestingly not a single source mentions Lyanna again when the lead up to the war is discussed. Once Brandon opens his mouth its like she never existed until after the war.

3. He clearly respects Rhaegar over Robert, despite his friendship with Robert, on several occasions, and has the highest respect for Rhaegars closest friend, Arthur Dayne. If you want to know someone, look at the people they are close to.

4. Barristan was around Rhaegar generally for Rhaegar's entire life. He may not have been an intimate, but he had more than enough opportunity to assess his character, capabilities and personality. And compare Rhaegar, and his potential, to other Targaryen Kings. If there is one person anywhere that can give us the best indication its Barristan, and he tells us that Rhaegar could have been the greatest Targaryen King of them all, while in practically the same breath telling Dany that Aerys was a bad king and there were issues if she is ready to listen, so proving that he isn't just being biased toward Targs or telling Dany what she wanted to hear.

But of course, feel free to dismiss the facts which are inconvenient in favour of the narrative you have decided upon. :cool4:

1. Why would he think they were dating he took her at the died night then disappeared.

We have a quick sentence. When you say something do you leave it at that or continue it, anyway killing your sister's rapist is the same as saving her.

You can respect a man's friend but not the man, people respect Ned and not Robert.

He did nothing of note but act moody and win a couple of tourneys. When thinking of things he actually did old Barry came up short.

I respect what you say I just disagree.

[Fred of Ashai]

• He did nothing of note but act moody and win a couple of tourneys. When thinking of things he actually did old Barry came up short.

I respect what you say I just disagree.

I think Rhaegar only won one Tourney, the one at Harrenhal. Look to Jorah Mormont for an explanation of how he pulled it off (Jorah defeated a lot of better knights to win the Tournament at Lannisport because he was obsessed with Lynesse Hightower). That is probably how Rhaegar managed to win at Harrenhal, since he was obsessed with Lyanna.

The only time he led an army into battle he lost to a smaller force and was killed in action.

[Fred of Ashai]

Also, is there any reason to think Rhaegar wasn't in the Red Keep when Brandon showed up? I always thought he was there and that he cut and ran as son as Brandon challenged him to a duel.

[corbon]

1. Why would he think they were dating he took her at the died night then disappeared.

We have a quick sentence. When you say something do you leave it at that or continue it, anyway killing your sister's rapist is the same as saving her.

You can respect a man's friend but not the man, people respect Ned and not Robert.

He did nothing of note but act moody and win a couple of tourneys. When thinking of things he actually did old Barry came up short.

I respect what you say I just disagree.

1. Ahh, you know that do you? Have a direct personal line to GRRM? We have no idea what Brandon believed to be true, and even less idea how he got whatever information he got, nor if it was accurate.

2. :shocked: I hope for your family's sake you don't ever have a sister in trouble then....

3. Sure you can. But what we have is evidence that points to respect. What we don't have is evidence that points to disrespect. Not even a little bit.

4. We don't know all the things he did or didn't do. Among things we do know - he was bookish, early, enough that he was practically a running joke, but that something he read made him change everything one day and become a warrior, and a passably good one at that. He was a very good jouster, enough to win one challenge tourney and in another draw (be declared the winner over) with Arthur Dayne after they broke a dozen or so lances against each other. We know that the smallfolk cheered for Tywin twice as much as Aerys, yet Rhaegar twice as much as Tywin. Somehow they liked him for something. We know that dutiful (responsible) was his most dominant characteristic. We know that he was a good enough fighter to lose only narrowly to the god-of-war Robert, wounding him badly enough that he couldn't travel on to KL immediately. We know that even as a child his wit and intellect was enough to awe the Maesters of Hightower. We know that Jaime Lannister remembers the iron in his voice and thinks he would have been a good king. We know that Jorah Mormont, who would not have known Rhaegar well personally knew enough of his reputation to know that he would have been against rape after conquest.

We have plenty enough data to see the picture that has been painted for us...

Also, is there any reason to think Rhaegar wasn't in the Red Keep when Brandon showed up? I always thought he was there and that he cut and ran as son as Brandon challenged him to a duel.

Yes. Aerys asked around for where Rhaegar was at the time and no one knew, or at least could tell him.

[corbon]

That is probably how Rhaegar managed to win at Harrenhal, since he was obsessed with Lyanna.

Funny how despite the shock of his awarding her the QoLaB and everybody therefore watching them both intensely for many mis-step, there is not the slightest whisper of any goings-on between them before or after until around a year later.

Funny how his actually 'obsession' (dubious to even call it that) seems to have been the prophecy and the three heads of the dragon - both of which are working just fine and everything to plan thank you very much without Lyanna Stark until most of a year later. Its not until after his dragon-heads-with-Elia plan goes south that he has any connection with Lyanna at all other than the single QoLaB award (thoroughly explained by her being the KotLT, not any relationship).

Sorry sir, but your narrative just doesn't make sense with the data we have.