The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Targaryen Polo Shirt
Targaryen Polo T-Shirt
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Jon Snow Lord of Dragonstone


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 Prince AppleSauce

Prince AppleSauce

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:38 AM

Many people who subscribe to the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow theory also seem to assume that Jon Snow would be the true heir to the Iron Throne. 

 

However, is that how succession really works?

 

Even If R+L=J were true I dont think Jon would have a strong claim to the Iron Throne.

 

Rhaegar as crown prince was the KING's heir, and he also held the title Lord of Dragonstone.

 

However, Rhaegar died BEFORE his Father.  Therefore he never became king and never inherited his father's claim to the Kingdom of Westeros.

The only title Rhaegar's children could then inherit would be the Lordship of Dragonstone.

 

The crown would then have passed to the KING's next born son Vicerys.  Which is exactly what the book reads.

 

Many R+L=J believers seem to think the crown would pass to the Prince's son.  And many state the Kings guard's presense outside the tower of joy as reason.   However, that doesnt make sense.  Why would Aegon or Jon inherit the King's crown if his father was never king.  Vicery's Father was the king.   

 

This ultimatley makes Daeny's claim much stronger than Aegon or Jon's.

 

however, they both (if they are real Targaryens) do have a claim to their father's title, Lordship of Dragonstone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 SonofStannis

SonofStannis

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:42 AM

Many people who subscribe to the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow theory also seem to assume that Jon Snow would be the true heir to the Iron Throne. 

 

However, is that how succession really works?

 

Even If R+L=J were true I dont think Jon would have a strong claim to the Iron Throne.

 

Rhaegar as crown prince was the KING's heir, and he also held the title Lord of Dragonstone.

 

However, Rhaegar died BEFORE his Father.  Therefore he never became king and never inherited his father's claim to the Kingdom of Westeros.

The only title Rhaegar's children could then inherit would be the Lordship of Dragonstone.

 

The crown would then have passed to the KING's next born son Vicerys.  Which is exactly what the book reads.

 

Many R+L=J believers seem to think the crown would pass to the Prince's son.  And many state the Kings guard's presense outside the tower of joy as reason.   However, that doesnt make sense.  Why would Aegon or Jon inherit the King's crown if his father was never king.  Vicery's Father was the king.   

 

This ultimatley makes Daeny's claim much stronger than Aegon or Jon's.

 

however, they both (if they are real Targaryens) do have a claim to their father's title, Lordship of Dragonstone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dany doesnt have a stronger legal claim because women arent allowed to directly sit on the IT and rule.



#3 Apple Martini

Apple Martini

    The Snarker on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,486 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:43 AM

Not how succession works. It goes king, then to the king's oldest son, then to his oldest son, next-oldest son, etc. Viserys isn't in contention until Rhaegar's sons are exhausted, even if Rhaegar dies first. If Prince Charles dies before Elizabeth II, Prince William is still next in line, not Prince Andrew. Edward the Black Prince died before Edward III; the throne passed to Richard II, the Black Prince's son, not John of Gaunt, his younger brother and Edward III's next-oldest surviving son.

 

Even if your understanding of succession were correct (it's not), Dany, being a female, would still come after any male Targaryen claimants.


Edited by Apple Martini, 20 February 2014 - 12:45 AM.


#4 SonofStannis

SonofStannis

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:44 AM

And just because Aegon and Jons dad didnt become King doesnt mean they dont have a claim on the IT, theyre apart of the Royal family and the line of succession if everyones dead in front of them then it falls on them.



#5 SonofStannis

SonofStannis

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:46 AM

Not how succession works. It goes king, then to the king's oldest son, then to his oldest son, next-oldest son, etc. Viserys isn't in contention until Rhaegar's sons are exhausted, even if Rhaegar dies first. If Prince Charles dies before Elizabeth II, Prince William is still next in line, not Prince Andrew. Edward the Black Prince died before Edward III; the throne passed to Richard II, the Black Prince's son, not John of Gaunt, his younger brother and Edward III's next-oldest surviving son.

 

Even if your understanding of succession were correct (it's not), Dany, being a female, would still come after any male Targaryen claimants.

Yes exactly what I was trying and mostly failed to explain.



#6 Daken Blackfyre

Daken Blackfyre

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 15 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:47 AM

Dany doesnt have a stronger legal claim because women arent allowed to directly sit on the IT and rule.

 

she would have to marry someone right

 

and jon snow would not be a great king

he'l turn into another robert

 

because people like jon, eddard and even robert belong in the batlefield

and not in court



#7 JPJK79

JPJK79

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 120 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:53 AM

I can not see two characters totally different then Jon and Robert Baratheon. Two completely different people.



#8 Eddard Slark

Eddard Slark

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:57 AM

Primogeniture. Its a thing

#9 Wisenan69

Wisenan69

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:10 AM

I seriously doubt that Jon would claim a right to the IT or any other throne. Like many other posters I believe that he belongs to the North, en heart and soul. Of course IMO he would be a good King in the North, or Winterfell Regent. To me he seems to be a natural leader.

#10 El Guapo

El Guapo

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,371 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:25 AM

Succession laws are always a little murky but my guess is and this is based on the assumption that the rebellion never happened and Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage was deemed valid the line would have been as follows:

 

Aerys- Rhaegar-Aegon-Jon-Viserys-Rhaenys-Daenerys



#11 Nictarion

Nictarion

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,880 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:18 AM

Dany doesnt have a stronger legal claim because women arent allowed to directly sit on the IT and rule.

Not true. They just come after all male TARGARYEN relatives.

#12 Olligarchy

Olligarchy

    King of the Rock

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 744 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:23 AM

Assuming... the theory is correct then either Jon or fAegon is currently the rightful reigning monarch with with Daenarys coming after them. Of course we don't have any specific documentation on any successions (bar the obvious eldest son inherits), but depending on the particularities it might even displace Daenarys entirely from succession and making her SONS valid to inherit the throne, whilst barring her own succession.



#13 littleRickon

littleRickon

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 332 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:33 AM

Not how succession works. It goes king, then to the king's oldest son, then to his oldest son, next-oldest son, etc. Viserys isn't in contention until Rhaegar's sons are exhausted, even if Rhaegar dies first. If Prince Charles dies before Elizabeth II, Prince William is still next in line, not Prince Andrew. Edward the Black Prince died before Edward III; the throne passed to Richard II, the Black Prince's son, not John of Gaunt, his younger brother and Edward III's next-oldest surviving son.

 

Even if your understanding of succession were correct (it's not), Dany, being a female, would still come after any male Targaryen claimants.

basically this ends the thread.

 

the bolded part: I would imagine history would be even more of an epic backstab clusterf**k if all that a king's brother or nephew would have to do to get in line fot the crown was to kill their male offspring before the king dies. Keeping the succession line the same regardless of who dies first gives at least some stability to the system, and is the only way it makes any sense...



#14 The Doctor's Consort

The Doctor's Consort

    Never cruel or cowardly. Never give up, never give in.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,208 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:35 AM

I think that you are wrong. Heir's sons comes before his younger brothers.

 

If Charles, Prince of Wales dies before Queen Elizabeth Prince William, Duke of Cambridge is the heir not Prince Andrew, Duke of York.

 

Dany is at the bottom of the line of succession with Rhaenys, Shireen, Elia and Arianne



#15 Flayed Starkman

Flayed Starkman

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 120 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:48 AM

This video should help enlighten things:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BUY6HGqYweQ



#16 BlackStark

BlackStark

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:53 AM

Leaving issues of legitimacy, does it matter whether Jon has been born yet?  Does his interest vest at conception (as it would under the RAP) or birth?  If it is at birth, then it is possible that his claim was extinguished once Aerys and Aegon were killed.



#17 Flayed Starkman

Flayed Starkman

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 120 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:43 PM

But the way I see it is this: The Targaryens (including Jon) were removed from the line line of succession, when Robert took the Throne. They still have a claim to the Throne, if someone backs them.

 

Legally, Stannis is King, and Shireen his heir, but would the Targaryens be in contention if Shireen were to die? One of Roberts numerous bastards could be legitimized, but what would happen if the Baratheon line were to die out (and the Lannisters lose the Throne)? Then there is no obvious heir, so a Great Council would have to be called. 

Considering Robert was put forth as King, as he had a Targaryen grandmother, this could mean Doran would be in line for the throne through his Targaryen lineage.



#18 SuperTechmarine

SuperTechmarine

    The Bastard Dragon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,702 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:47 PM

You obviously haven't played Crusader Kings II.



#19 Lyse Stark

Lyse Stark

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,119 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

Not how succession works. It goes king, then to the king's oldest son, then to his oldest son, next-oldest son, etc. Viserys isn't in contention until Rhaegar's sons are exhausted, even if Rhaegar dies first. If Prince Charles dies before Elizabeth II, Prince William is still next in line, not Prince Andrew. Edward the Black Prince died before Edward III; the throne passed to Richard II, the Black Prince's son, not John of Gaunt, his younger brother and Edward III's next-oldest surviving son.
 
Even if your understanding of succession were correct (it's not), Dany, being a female, would still come after any male Targaryen claimants.


Aegon> Jon> Viserys> Daenerys. Enuff said. And Aegon likely is a fake, so Jon comes first in succession.

#20 Flayed Starkman

Flayed Starkman

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 120 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

You obviously haven't played Crusader Kings II.

 

Actually i've logged 120+ hours in CKII.

 

Aren't deposed rulers listed as claimants, not heirs. But I haven't played a scenario, where I win gain the Kingdom of Denmark (for example), and then my whole dynasty is wiped out, so I wouldn't know