Jump to content

The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 4! (FFC-DwD)


butterbumps!

Recommended Posts

Welcome to the Jon Snow reread project! Co-conspirating this mission are Lummel and Ragnorak; we aim to present summaries for each of the 47 Jon chapters at a rate of about 1 per week (more or less) in order to reread, analyze and be critical. The last chapter we discussed in the previous thread was Jon XII, aSoS, aka, “Jon becomes LC.”

This isn’t an appreciation thread, but rather, a space to look beyond the broad strokes of Jon’s arc to bring the subtleties of his character into greater relief for discussion. (Similarly, unsubstantiated criticism is strongly discouraged). This isn’t about winning over sides, but impartial analytical discussion.

Please feel free to read along and post your reactions to the chapter or just anything that strikes you as interesting or odd. GRRM's choice of words, a parallel in another chapter or even another POV, references, allusions or foreshadowings - it all adds to the conversation.

For the best possible discussion, we ask the following:

Please DON’T: Analyze future chapters. References to future events are fine but otherwise stick with the current or past chapters.
Please DON’T: Snipe with someone you disagree with – it's boring for everyone else and spoils the thread. State your opinion, give your evidence and agree to differ.

Please DO: Compare and contrast with other POVs. GRRM is fond of creating parallel scenes and role reversals.
Please DO: Show the support in the text for your views.


chapter links!

aGoT

aGoT Jon I (King's banquet at Winterfell)
aGoT Jon II (Jon says goodbyes to his family)
aGoT Jon III (At the Wall, Donal lectures Jon; Jon receives news of Bran)
aGoT Jon IV (Sam arrives; Jon reveals his dream of the crypts)
aGoT Jon V (Jon is told he's promoted; appeals to Aemon on behalf of Sam)
aGoT Jon VI (Sam is promoted; Jon and Sam take their vows; Ghost finds a hand)
aGoT Jon VII (ranging party studies bodies of Othor and Jafer; crypt dream; Jon gets news of Ned's treason; Jon fights Othor the wight)
aGoT Jon VIII (Jon gets Longclaw; news of Robb's march; Aemon's "love is the bane of honor" conversation)
AGOT Jon IX (Jon attempts to skedaddle but is prevented by his friends, Mormont reveals that he is going to lead a mini-army north of the Wall)
AGOT Roundup


aCoK
ACOK Jon I (Preparations for the expedition at the Wall, Mormont has an infodump of Targaryen history for Jon)
ACOK Jon II (Mormont's expedition reaches Whitetree)
ACOK Jon III (The expedition reaches Craster's)
ACOK Jon IV (Expedition reaches the fist of the first men)
ACOK Jon V (Qhorin arrives and leaves with Jon to range further north)
ACOK Jon VI (Jon's first date with Ygritte)
ACOK Jon VII (Jon in the Skirling Pass, his wolf dream, connection to Bran)
ACOK Jon VIII (Qhorin's sacrifice and Jon goes Wildling)
ACOK Roundup


aSoS
ASOS Prologue
ASOS Jon I (Jon meets The Mance)

ASOS Jon II (Jon shaken and stirred, delivered to the Mance at the Fist of First Men
ASOS Sam I (Sam the Slayer)
ASOS Jon III (Jon, wandering in and around Ygritte's cave, invents the Lord's Kiss)
ASOS Jon IV (Jon goes over the Wall, Jarl has a great fall, there no king's men or king's horses to put him together again)
ASOS Sam II (death of Mormont, Sam and Gilly, cutting the onion)
ASOS Jon II (arrival at Queenscrown; Jon escapes the wildlings and heads to Castle Black to warn of the attack)
ASOS Sam III (Sam and Gilly survive a wight attack; Coldhands is introduced)
ASOS Jon VI (Injured, Jon arrives at the Wall; informs of the Magnar's attack; learns Winterfell was sacked)
ASOS Jon VII (Styr's wildlings attack; Ygritte is killed)
ASOS Jon VIII (wildlings attack from the North; Donal dies; another crypt dream (RW clue)
ASOS Jon IX (the Watch repels a wildling advance; Jon is arrested by Slynt for desertion)
ASOS Jon X (Jon is sent to kill Mance; Stannis arrives at the Wall, defeating the wildlings)
ASOS Sam IV (Sam has returned; Stannis plans to burn Mance; Sam is concerned about the LC elections and seeks a solution).
ASOS Jon XI (Stannis offers Jon Winterfell with conditions; Stannis announces his wildling plans)
ASOS Sam V (Stannis meets with the LC contenders; Sam rigs the election)
ASOS Jon XII (Ghost returns; Jon decides to reject Stannis' offer; Jon is made LC)

ASOS Roundup

FFC/ DwD

DwD Jon I (First look at Jon's command; Jon meets with Stannis to discuss the North and reject Stannis' request for Watch castles)

FFC Sam I (overlap with DwD Jon II; Jon and Sam speak of the Others; Jon sends Sam to Oldtown)

DwD Jon II (Jon meets with Gilly, then Sam, then his castle commanders; Edd fetches a block)

Link to comment
Share on other sites



ASOS Summary





Overview – structure - parallels


OK. In accordance with ancient tradition we will pause to digest the whole of Jon's story in ASOS before moving on to the next part of the reread. As always the topics raised here are not intended to be exhaustive, simply to offer up some starting points for discussion.



Jon's story in ASOS is divided into three parts, chapters I –V with the wildlings, chapters VI – X in defence of the wall and chapters XI-XII deal with the aftermath of the events. We also looked at the ASOS prologue and Sam's chapters. Loyal and allegiance is one overarching theme in all those chapters and in ASOS as a whole. The fate of Mormont is paralleled in the stories of Tywin and Robb. Varys' riddle still stands, 'power resides were men believe it resides', power is the result of the relationships between people, not something absolute but potentially changeable.



Jon's physical journey continues to to shape his interior development. What he sees challenges his preconceptions and opens up either new possibilities or those which he hid from himself (for example the desire to be a father).



The wildling debates


The challenge to preconceptions is seen in the paired discussions between Sam and Gilly on the one hand and Jon and Ygritte on the other. They parallel the later discussions between Daenerys and Xaro in ADWD in forcing two very different world views to confront each other. ASOIAF, contains multiple ways of seeing the world, right and wrong can be a question of which side of the wall you are on, yet what escapes most of these characters is that despite radically different ways of seeing the world they still share the same planet. If they can reach an accommodation is there any escape from perpetual culture?



The question of how Wildlings and Northerners can live to together is raised again in Jon X and will remain a live issue through ADWD. The song “The Last of the Giants” suggests that entire cultures can be lost, and may be an elegy for the eventual fate of the Wildlings themselves, but perhaps we should see the inevitability of loss as part of the extreme natural cycle of Westeros.




Meetings with Kings


Mance vs Stannis


Mance and Stannis are overshadowing presences in ASOS. Jon has to deal with both Kings, both also are models of what a king should be and how they should behave. For both Mance and Stannis the King should be the protector of their people. In Mance's case this has him attempting to lead his people south of the Wall, in Stannis' case, inspired by Davos, to demonstrate his kingship by defending the northern border of the Kingdom. This king in deed echoes Sam's attitude towards Jon in ACOK. However this is not something that we see widely practised by the other Kings of Westeros. How far do Mance and Stannis contrast with what Jon has learnt up to ASOS and what does he take forward?



Stannis and the Wall: how do you deal with a problem like the others?


Stannis has a clear idea of what he has to do to face the Others. Unfortunately this idea is not widely shared! This idea probably comes from Melisandre (but may not be shared by other Red Priests). There may be some overlap with Maester Aemon's understanding of the Prince who was promised prophecy. However the Night's Watch is as a whole and us readers are not privy to either script. This is important – we have different groups working together but quite possibly at cross purposes. Agreement now may signal later conflict.



Stannis as plot driver in the north


Jon XI and Sam V are both key chapters in determining the events of ADWD. Stannis lays out a programme of reoccupying the abandoned castles on the wall and bringing the Wildlings through the Wall rather than both exhausting themselves in combat in the face of the White Walkers. Stannis also insists that he needs the north. These objectives will drive Jon's chapters in ADWD. While Jon and Stannis clearly have come to similar conclusions, their understanding of the situation is different. Different roads have led them to the same castle. Neither are their conclusions or their ideas widely spread. Jon's exposure to the Wildlings was highly personal – even Sam's perspective is distinctly different, it doesn't represent a shared or consensus view.




Jon in ASOS


Jon has left his mentors behind him. In AGOT and ACOK he was exposed to mentors, but in ASOS Jon has to stand on his own feet, he has killed Qhorin and Mormont dies. There is no return to the womb. Ready or not he has to face his challenges on his own two feet.



Decision making


As shown in the example of the Old Man in Jon V and Jon XII emotionally powerful images can determine Jon's reaction in questions that affect him personally and directly. Appraisal of options, weighing up alternatives and presenting an arguing is something that he can do but generally when it involves somebody else.



Belonging


Where does Jon belong? Ygritte wants him to be a wildling, Stannis wants him to be Lord of Winterfell, his friends want him to be Lord Commander of the Nights watch. The way Jon thinks about Winterfell parallels with how Sansa and Arya think about Winterfell – Does Winterfell represents their souls or their sense of self? His decision in Jon XII is to stay at the Wall but is this his final answer or was it in response to the conditions that Stannis laid down?



Jon the odd hero


Rescued (again) by Bran, pushed into a position of power by friends there is a parallel here with Sansa and Arya who are also moved around by others. Perhaps bearing in mind Jaime's determination not to have his life ordered any more by other people and their wishes is part of a wider presentation of agency and free will in ASOIAF? Or again, is GRRM tweaking the tropes as the disabled boy pulls the ropes?



Jon as leader figure


From his return Jon to Winterfell Jon becomes a mentor to Satin, leads the defence on top of the Wall and then takes over training the recruits. Contrast with Thorne and other senior officers who don't apparently even consider the recruits at all. Jon is widely seen to be a leader even before his election which serves perhaps to do little more than put an official stamp on what he was already doing.



Jon as Lord Commander – challenges, limits of power, identity


Entering into his job as Lord Commander has challenges – castles to reopen and man, Wildlings to peaceful bring south, the unknown quantity of the white walkers while negotiating a relationship with Stannis who is working to a script known only possibly only to himself and Melisandre, at the same time potentially indebted to the people who put him in power while conflicted over his sense of identity – where he wants to be and who he feels himself to be!



Psyche – the emotional impact of ASOS on Jon


Sam comes out of his adventures having saved the girl and confronted horrors with increased confidence. By contrast Jon seems more haunted by his experiences. ASOS is an emotional mill for him. Losses of family, home, and love. The election as Lord Commander can be seen as the final loss that he experiences as he is cut off from comradeship as well. ASOS is a painful experience for Jon and the end of Jon's arc is sober rather than joyful.







How we are going to proceed with the reread:


The plan is that Butterbumps! will post an overview and introduction of points relevant to Jon and the Wall from AFFC, after which we will move on to Sam I AFFC before starting on ADWD. We will be doing the Melisandre chapter as part of the ADWD reread while we will be spinning off the rest of Sam into a separate thread as we did for Jon Connington while rereading Tyrion. Moving on to ADWD will give us a chance to see how we have further digested the book since we took part in Learning to Lead!


Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few thoughts on Jon/Sansa parallels from the last ASOS chapters, before moving on.


I think there are various angles to look at it, not all of them converging.



1) Jon/Stannis and Sansa/Littlefinger


This is not, I believe, a direct parallel between Jon and Sansa but rather a parallel of each of them to Ned/Robert and Ned/Littlefinger. The connecting point is that both Jon and Sansa impersonate Ned's part in their relative stories. These parallels could represent a second chance for things to be done "right" this time.


Ned and Robert were best friends, almost brothers, it would be expected of their collaboration to be smooth and productive. It was fruitless for the realm and destructive for Ned personally. jon and Stannis begin as strangers and not exactly in friendly terms but they seem (in ADWD) to develop a grudging(?) respect for each other and there are visible results in the watch and in the north that are positive, at least as they view it (manning the abandoned castles, gaining some alies in the north etc.).


In the Sansa/Littlefinger case, "done right" would mean the "good guys" win this time. LF is currently a dark mentor figure for Sansa, as he aspired to be for Ned in AGOT. Ned outrightly rejected LF's pragmatistic but dishonorable advice but in the end he let himself be dependent on him and lost. Sansa on the other hand seems to be going along but this time it's LF that develops a dependency for her and all clues point that this will be his downfall.


Ned/Littlefinger's relationship became crusial when Ned/Robert's ended by Robert's death. Maybe this could forshadow Jon giving Sansa the baton in the relay race of northern politics, but that's just a guess.



2) Focal point Winterfell


Jon and Sansa (and all of the Stark) share a view of Winterfell that has little to do with property. It's more, like Lummel put it, a part of their soul. Of all of them, Jon seems to be the one with a "guilty" desire to own it but this is mainly related to what it represents (all that was denied of him due to his bastardy). Apart from this, there are more contrasts than similarities. Jon feels that Winterfell rejects him, in his recurring dreams of the crypts and, in this chapter, through the memory of Catelyn. By the end of the chapter Jon decides not to take Stannis' offer. He won't be the one to rebuilt Winterfell, as he won't be the one to take val out of the tower (for now, at least - but I think that he will have another role to play).


On the contrary, Sansa symbolically rebuilds Winterfell (with LF's really useful help, it must be noted) and she is stronger within the walls of Winterfell. No rejection here. Her earlier quote "A pure world, ... I do not belong here" is not, I think, about Winterfell per se, but about her childhood, that is irreversibly lost to her. Sansa, I believe, will have a part in rebuilding Winterfell, along with her siblings. (A little off topic: I think that all the remaining Stark children will be again on their own, without their mentors, not fully trained. Each of them will have a skillset that will not be sufficient to allow them to do everything on their own, but it will be a crucial part in their collective effort -even little Rickon's contribution will be important- so as to confirm Ned's ideal of the pack. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives... The Stark name and heritage will survive because they are a pack. Jon is a part of the pack as well, but he's also different; he's the one who has crawled -or was driven- away...).



3) Jon/Cat and Sansa/Lysa


Both women make them feel unwanted, for similar reasons: they are the living reminder of a love rival. But: Cat influenced Ned's decision to send Jon away from Winterfell, and Cat's ghost played a part in Jon's refusing Stannis offer. In Sansa's case, Cat's ghost is the decisive factor on who's to stay (in the Eyrie) and who's to go (via moondoor).



I don't think that LF and Stannis have the same functional role in Sansa's and Jon's story and progression, but I don't have time to elaborate. There will be opportunities to discuss their role in the following chapters, so I'll leave it for then.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn’t the transition from book to book the appropriate moment to bring up neglected points that have been left behind in the reread?


We discussed in Jon XII the notion that Maester Aemon arranged the election of Jon quietly and efficiently. Am I alone to perceive Maester Luwin’s agency in the decision to allow Jon to go to the Wall?


@Shadowcat. True: there is more contrast than parallel in the the Jon/Sansa comparison. For Jon, the family castle brings the infaming memory of being the bastard of Winterfell, while Sansa longs for the time when she was the daughter (I am tempted to say: the princess) of Winterfell.


@Lummel. Meeting with kings. Protecting the people is a common denominator of Mance's and Stannis’s kingships. I can summarize the key difference thus. Mance sees his people as deserving freedom, while for Stannis it’s primordial that everyone does his duty. The act that will largely define Jon as Lord Commander – I am referring to the execution of Janos Slynt – seems a page taken from Stannis’ book. But I suspect that deep down, Jon feels that Mance is the more attractive model, perhaps as a result of the experience of freedom beyond the Wall.


@Paper Waver. I have no idea of Aemon’s first temptation as a boy. A small mystery in the character. Here is another one: where is his dragon egg (mentioned in the Mystery Knight)? We can return both questions in the Sam re-read.


Further note on Aemon:

I considered again Aemon’s influence on Jon Snow’s career at the Watch. Aemon is described as frail and light (it’s not only due to old age) and lacking in martial nature. Obviously he carried the burden of sharing a name with a great knight, and perhaps suffered from the comparison. Aemon seems to have found at the Citadel a place appropriate for him and might have been grateful to King Daeron for having sent him there. Such a personal history puts in perspective Aemon’s appreciation of Jon’s plea for Sam in AGoT. Aemon might have recognized himself in Sam, and consequently appreciated that Jon cared to find a place for such a "useless" boy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn’t the transition from book to book the appropriate moment to bring up neglected points that have been left behind in the reread?

We discussed in Jon XII the notion that Maester Aemon arranged the election of Jon quietly and efficiently. Am I alone to perceive Maester Luwin’s agency in the decision to allow Jon to go to the Wall?

You're not alone :P I noticed that too, and I've seen other posters bringing it up. When Cat and Ned are discussing Jon's future, Maester Luwin doesn't really wait to see if they will find a good solution by themselves, presenting the Watch as an option before Ned can think of other possibilities (besides leaving Jon at WF or bringing him to court). And he also says Benjen was the one that told him Jon wanted to join the Watch, but we know Ben believed he was too young for that. And then he says everyone is making sacrifices, so there's no reason to spare Jon.

We can start all sorts of crazy theories :devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good! Then, it might be for the best to gather the textual evidence.


I came to believe that much of the SoIaF is about reexamining the initial chapters. I take Barbrey Dustin's allusion to the Rickard/Walys dynamics as an invitation to return to the Ned/Luwin relationship.


The first hint we have is in the passage where Jon talks to his uncle about joining the Watch in Jon I, AGoT.


Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. “The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.”

“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”


It is not explicit that Luwin spoke in connection to the Watch, but it is suggested by the context. Let’s look at the conversation between Luwin, Ned and Catelyn in Catelyn II, AGoT. After Ned agreed to Robert’s offer, the fate of the Stark children is considered. The case of Jon is finally brought up by none other than Luwin.


“What of Jon Snow, my lord?” Maester Luwin asked.


A tense conversation between Catelyn and Ned ensues. It’s Luwin who offers the solution.


He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.”


Then Catelyn remains silent, while Ned deliberates.


Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.”

“And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch,” Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. “Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen...”

“A hard sacrifice,” Maester Luwin agreed. “Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady’s.


And Luwin’s partial advice carried the decision. Note how transparent Luwin’s influence has been.


Of course, Benjen was also a deciding factor, but he never encouraged Jon to join the Watch. As an additional detail open to interpretation, I can mention that the presence of Benjen was an express requirement of Catelyn. (Catelyn I, AGoT)


“We should send word to your brother on the Wall.”

“Yes, of course,” he agreed. “Ben will want to be here. I shall tell Maester Luwin to send his swiftest bird.”


Finally, I would like to insist that Luwin was essential in Ned’s decision to go south. Before Luwin's arrival in Catelyn’s bedroom, Ned was certain to refuse Robert’s offer. Luwin found the argument that changed Ned’s mind: the protection of the innocent. (The very same argument that almost decided Jon Snow to accept Stannis’ offer before Ghost’s arrival.)


I don’t have any further analysis to offer. It could simply be that Luwin sided systematically with Catelyn, in which case sending Jon to the Watch was in Catelyn’s mind all along (but her thoughts do not reveal that). I tend rather to attribute the intention to the maester, even if Catelyn wanted Jon out of Winterfell.


Here is some unsupported speculation. It’s not completely excluded that Luwin has guessed Jon’s parentage. The conclave in Oldtown certainly maintains an understanding of the political situation in the 7K, and centralizes information from all the realm. Various maesters (Starfall etc) could have reported something on the events around Jon’s birth. It's never hinted that there are non-obvious Targaryen characteristic which could be visible by Jon's personal physician (Luwin). So I won't insist on that. In any case, Luwin is smart, discreet and was corresponding with the Conclave, and therefore was in better position to understand than anyone else in Winterfell. Moreover, he was very close to Ned who entrusted his maester with ruling in his absence.


If, as Marwyn tells us, the maesters of Oldtown have gotten rid of a Targaryen (Aemon) by sending him to the Wall, why not get rid of another (Jon) in the same way? That last part is pure speculation. But it is clear to me that Luwin was not a neutral advisor in this matter.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I assumed Luwin was just more political than Ned, and wanted to make sure he wouldn't lose the opportunity to become Hand, which was supposed to be a good thing for the Starks. He knew Ned wasn't an ambicious man, so he needed some encouragement to make the decision Luwin thought was best for his house.


About Jon, it's possible that he too thought it was dangerous for Jon to get married and have children of his own. Disputes for Winterfell would doubtlessly harm House Stark, but Ned would never send Jon to the NW for this reason. So Luwin manipulates him using other arguments... mentioning honor...


I don't know if there was some "conspiration" with Cat going on though. Maybe they just have similar worldviews



I do believe Maester Luwin was truly loyal, but it doesn't mean he was always completely honest about his intentions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Paper Waver. I have no idea of Aemon’s first temptation as a boy. A small mystery in the character. Here is another one: where is his dragon egg (mentioned in the Mystery Knight)? We can return both questions in the Sam re-read.

Further note on Aemon:

I considered again Aemon’s influence on Jon Snow’s career at the Watch. Aemon is described as frail and light (it’s not only due to old age) and lacking in martial nature. Obviously he carried the burden of sharing a name with a great knight, and perhaps suffered from the comparison. Aemon seems to have found at the Citadel a place appropriate for him and might have been grateful to King Daeron for having sent him there. Such a personal history puts in perspective Aemon’s appreciation of Jon’s plea for Sam in AGoT. Aemon might have recognized himself in Sam, and consequently appreciated that Jon cared to find a place for such a "useless" boy.

King Daeron was a very intelligent man. He thought having too many heirs is as dangerous as having too few heirs. He is the one who sent Aemon to the Citadel. Surely Aemon was low in the succession line and surely being a very intelligent person, he had the makings of a maester. But are these merely excuses to cover the real reason behind this decision?

Even the Tarlys considered serving as a maester is a shame for their House. Did Daeron see a danger in Aemon to the heirs of the IT above him? If so, he was right in his fear because of what happened to Aerion's infant son, who was above Egg in the succession line.

We know of Targaryens who became KG, and some females who became septas. These are honorable or pious positions and no House (including the royalty) would loath one of their own choosing these paths. However, being a maester is different than these. I cannot understand how a member of the royalty would be deliberately driven to such a low path.

I am looking forward for Sam POVs in AFfC. Aemon's voyage and his last moments are interesting. So far we know that Aemon carried a small hope for Stannis being the real stuff in the prophecy because of his grandmother Rhaelle. After feeling the empty glamor, he became convinced that Stannis is false. Then Jon was selected the LC (no small thanks to him) and one of the first things Jon did was to send Aemon to Oldtown (which was completely Aemon's idea). We can assume that no other LC candidate would take this decision other than Jon. I want to ask this: Was going to Oldtown the real idea in Aemon's mind or was it a cover for his hidden intentions?

If, as Marwyn tells us, the maesters of Oldtown have gotten rid of a Targaryen (Aemon) by sending him to the Wall, why not get rid of another (Jon) in the same way? That last part is pure speculative. But it is clear to me that Luwin was not a neutral advisor in this matter.

The last moments of Luwin really worth giving a detailed look.

“Bran,” he said softly when he saw him sitting tall on Hodor’s back. “And Rickon too.” He smiled. “The gods are good. I knew…”

“Knew?” said Bran uncertainly.

“The legs, I could tell… the clothes fit, but the muscles in his legs… poor lad…” He coughed, and blood came up from inside him.

Upon seeing the bodies Theon brought, Luwin observed the anatomical differences and correctly guessed that the boys were the miller’s boys. He knew where Theon and “Reek” were going after sending him to Winterfell. I also believe Luwin somehow knew that the younger boy of the miller’s wife was fathered by Theon. So he realized Theon became a kinslayer. I like to have this as the beginning of the kinslayer accusation to Theon, going all the way to the Hooded Man, spearwives and Crowfood. Theon’s prophetic dreams which warned him about the upcoming punishment for his terrible crime makes me believe this notion.

“Listen,” Luwin said to Osha, “the princes… Robb’s heirs. Not… not together… do you hear?”

The wildling woman leaned on her spear. “Aye. Safer apart. But where to take them? I’d thought, might be these Cerwyns…”

Maester Luwin shook his head, though it was plain to see what the effort cost him. “Cerwyn boy’s dead. Ser Rodrik, Leobald Tallhart, Lady Hornwood… all slain. Deepwood fallen, Moat Cailin, soon Torrhen’s Square. Ironmen on the Stony Shore. And east, the Bastard of Bolton.”

“Then where?” asked Osha.

“White Harbor… the Umbers… I do not know… war everywhere… each man against his neighbor, and winter coming… such folly, such black mad folly…”

Luwin wanted to separate the boys for safety but he did not say where the boys should go when they were present. I want to ask, if the boys sticked together, would that be so unsafe than their position at that time? Luwin tried to discourage Bran about his dreams and magic and 3EC all through the ACoK. Now that he was dying, he could no longer keep him out of that path. Osha always encouraged Bran on this, Luwin even had to make a warning to her to not fill Bran’s ear with the magic stuff previously. The Reed kids are not likely to help him with Bran either. Did Luwin see Bran as a lost cause, which can be an inconvenience (being a cripple and delving into magic) to Rickon, who he hoped to be the next Lord Stark?

There is little reason to doubt that Rickon is currently in Skagos but how he got there is highly prone to suspicion. Without getting any help, I can’t see how they could make it there. I also cannot believe Wex followed them without being noticed.

Osha gazed up at the weirwood, at the red face carved in the pale trunk. “And leave you for the gods?”

“I beg…” The maester swallowed. “A… a drink of water, and… another boon. If you would…”

“Aye.” She turned to Meera. “Take the boys.”

Jojen and Meera led Rickon out between them. Hodor followed. Low branches whipped at Bran’s face as they pushed between the trees, and the leaves brushed away his tears. Osha joined them in the yard a few moments later. She said no word of Maester Luwin. “Hodor must stay with Bran, to be his legs,” the wildling woman said briskly. “I will take Rickon with me.”

“We’ll go with Bran,” said Jojen Reed.

“Aye, I thought you might,” said Osha. “Believe I’ll try the East Gate, and follow the kingsroad a ways.”

“We’ll take the Hunter’s Gate,” said Meera.

“Hodor,” said Hodor.

Osha did not stay long with Luwin but she came back quite sure of their next destination. In their brief speech, Luwin must have told her what to do in words that he did not want the boys to hear. He might have told Osha about Theon’s kinslaying, which he might have wanted to spare the boys from knowing. We cannot know for sure about the contents of this speech until Bran looks at them through the heart tree.

Did Luwin want Rickon to follow the safest path? Did he leave Bran and the Reeds on their own?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last we see Luwin (Theon POV) he is nowhere near the godswood, and we see from Bran's POV that the fire stopped shortly after reaching the trees.

On the edge of the black pool, beneath the shelter of the heart tree, Maester Luwin lay on his belly in the dirt. A trail of blood twisted back through damp leaves where he had crawled.

All the way while severely wounded. Why if not to pray?

“Bran,” he said softly when he saw him sitting tall on Hodor’s back. “And Rickon too.” He smiled. “The gods are good. I knew...”

If he prayed (as I am sure he did), and if his prayer for gods to spare him just long enough to see the boys he knew were alive once more was granted, then IMO we should rethink his attitude towards the magic and gods in his last moments.

My personal opinion about motivation of his advice to separate the boys is: common sense - not all eggs in the same basket;

AND on a meta-reading level: because GRRM needs to send them separate ways.

But I can't accept that he would have written off Bran as a lost cause because of Bran being called on by old gods, for look! he was praying to them to see Bran and Rickon one last time and it was granted!

“Good,” the maester said. “A good boy. Your... your father’s son, Bran. Now go.”<- case in point

Now, I am not sure, but isn't he the one who gives us the speech about having studied magic and forged a link of valyrian steel and having his fingers bloody for trying to light a candle on the night he took the vigil to become a maester*? I think that has to be taken into account when we talk about him being anti-magic. He is, but there is more to it than just citadel agenda.

* I'm searching for the quote

Though IMO it is no accident that Luwin is the one who sent to Winterfell to serve.

Edit:

Do you perchance recall what I taught you about the chain collar that every maester wears?”
Bran thought for a moment, trying to remember. “A maester forges his chain in the Citadel of Oldtown. It’s a chain because you swear to serve, and it’s made of different metals because you serve the realm and the realm has different sorts of people. Every time you learn something you get another link. Black iron is for ravenry, silver for healing, gold for sums and numbers. I don’t remember them all.”
Luwin slid a finger up under his collar and began to turn it, inch by inch. He had a thick neck for a small man, and the chain was tight, but a few pulls had it all the way around. “This is Valyrian steel,” he said when the link of dark grey metal lay against the apple of his throat.

“Only one maester in a hundred wears such a link. This signifies that I have studied what the Citadel calls the higher mysteries-magic, for want of a better word. A fascinating pursuit, but of small use, which is why so few maesters trouble themselves with it.

“All those who study the higher mysteries try their own hand at spells, soon or late. I yielded to the temptation too, I must confess it. Well, I was a boy, and what boy does not secretly wish to find hidden powers in himself? I got no more for my efforts than a thousand boys before me, and a thousand since. Sad to say, magic does not work.”
“Sometimes it does,” Bran protested. “I had that dream, and Rickon did too. And there are mages and warlocks in the east...”
“There are men who call themselves mages and warlocks,” Maester Luwin said. “I had a friend at the Citadel who could pull a rose out of your ear, but he was no more magical than I was. Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The
years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem... but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea.
Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.
“Perhaps magic was once a mighty force in the world, but no longer. What little remains is no more than the wisp of smoke that lingers in the air after a great fire has burned out, and even that is fading. Valyria was the last ember, and Valyria is gone. The dragons are no more, the giants are dead, the children of the forest forgotten with all their lore.

“No, my prince. Jojen Reed may have had a dream or two that he believes came true, but he does not have the greensight. No living man has that power.”

Bran POV, ACoK

Can't find the candles.

I made a word search for Luwin and noticed that he has a physical tick of tugging at his chain collar when magic is mentioned. Might be worth looking into to see if it is only about magic or if there is a different meaning to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been off on an Olympic watching binge , and was late to get in on the discussion of the last chapter , so the following will will no doubt skip back and forth a fair bit , just responding to things that stood out to me in the text and people's posts


The election and the raven.


I can't see Aemon as making a direct physical intervention in the election. That would imply collaboration with Bloodraven and the CoTF , of which I see no evidence , or even a hint. If Aemon had such a connection , he would have been in possession of information that could have saved many lives , from before Mormont left on his ranging. So from that perspective alone , I can't buy it.


Physically speaking, what happens during a count ? I don't know what anyone else imagines, but I'd think the contents of the kettle would be dumped out on the table and the tokens sorted from there ( Just as in our elections the ballot boxes are dumped out first..the ballots are not retrieved one by one from the boxes. ) From my experience of working on elections , the ballot box (kettle) is then set out of the way , and no-one pays it any attention till the count is complete. All that would be required for the raven to sneak in on it's own ( under BR's influence) would be for Sam , Clydas and Aemon not to put the lid back on before starting the count. It would hardly be a priority... Light levels would not be optimal = lots of shadows , Aemon is blind , Clydas' eyesight is poor , and Sam would have had no reason to lie to his friends afterward about putting the raven in the kettle. (And if the tally was right , there would be no call for anyone to check inside the kettle before replacing the lid. )

I still have to think Aemon's role in Jon's election was limited to encouraging Sam to take a hand.


I don't think Thorne and Slynt feel cheated so much as thwarted . They're annoyed because they've been out maneouvered ( and of course I think they're wrong about the who , why , when and how that happened ) .We don't have their POVs and though seeing events from various points of view is fascinating - like opinions , not all perspectives deserve equal weight .


On another topic , I like the point that was raised about the suggested equivalency of "Lord of Winterfell" with historic heroes in Jon and Robb's childhood training games , and I do feel it could be one of those things that holds more truth than is at first apparent.


Stewards and Blood


Several things that have come up separately want to come together in my mind to begin to form part of a larger picture. Because he was thinking of Cat's attitude toward him while he was sparring with Emmett , Jon tasting blood in his mouth has been connected to the emotional wounds Jon has suffered at her hands ( and in general ?) . I can definitely see something of that , but I also see it as strongly related to Jon's berserker tendencies..

“You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.

... It's his own blood he's tasting ( Stark blood) and he's reacted similarly before over Thorne's verbal attacks on Ned and Benjen....so is it something more than personal on this occasion ?


We use the analogy all the time, in sport and other hard fought contests - tasting blood and moving in for the kill. I think it's particularly notable for Jon , stretching beyond unusual strength , and bordering on battle frenzy.


I also agree completely with Winterfell being central in Jon, Arya and Sansa's sense of self , but I think this goes to unusual depths . It's been pointed out that we have 2 references to Qhorin. I take this as a cue to think of him and his words to Jon .... “You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night’s Watch.” ..( here, I think Qhorin puts the more important aspect first , though perhaps unknowingly )


Lummel points out the physical descriptiveness of Jon's thoughts/ visions about Winterfell . Again , I want to also consider this from another perspective. A sort of anthropomorphizing of Winterfell has been building all through the books . Here's Tyrion from ACoK..


He remembered their godswood; the tall sentinels armored in their grey-green needles, the great oaks, the hawthorn and ash and soldier pines, and at the center the heart tree standing like some pale giant frozen in time. He could almost smell the place, earthy and brooding, the smell of centuries, and he remembered how dark the wood had been even by day. That wood was Winterfell. It was the north.


And Jon from ASoS....


The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said... but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god.


Going back to Qhorin.... “You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night’s Watch.” ..


This is echoed in Ygritte's introduction of Jon to the wildlings ... “His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark’s blood, of Winterfell. .... the comma makes this a subtle but intentional reinforcement. Ygritte wouldn't have needed to include "of WF" in her introduction.


In AFfC we find a Sansa parallel at the visit of the Lords declarant ...


I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell .


And if we expand on that quote of Jon's...


The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said... but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.


..and couple it with his thoughts at Ghost's return... He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one.


.... we wind up with the Starks as stewards of WF, yes , on a material, practical, political level . But more than that , we can see Winterfell itself as a living character..the castle it's body , the heart tree it's heart ... and the Starks as the blood that keeps it alive. From a magical, supernatural standpoint, I think this informs ( or should inform ) many of the speculative threads.... If you cut out a being's heart , it will cease to exist. If that being is completely exsanguinated , it's heart cannot function and it will cease to exist...so , there must always be a Stark in WF.


Of course the comparison between Ghost and the heart tree again sets Ghost apart from the other direwolves, and I'm sure more will be coming to reveal his nature.. ( perhaps he'll actually function much like a heart tree .. a direct link to Bran and the old gods from wherever Jon is ?... future speculation ...)


Somehow , I doubt that the timing of Ghost's arrival was coincidental , just as Jon was beginning to waver, to give in to personal ( and very natural ) desires. Jon might have gone straight to Stannis and never have gone to the shieldhall , if not for Ghost's intervention. He hadn't bothered to attend the night before , thinking the writing was already on the wall....He mainly went at this time to feed Ghost's hunger , instead of his own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stewards and Blood

Several things that have come up separately want to come together in my mind to begin to form part of a larger picture. Because he was thinking of Cat's attitude toward him while he was sparring with Emmett , Jon tasting blood in his mouth has been connected to the emotional wounds Jon has suffered at her hands ( and in general ?) . I can definitely see something of that , but I also see it as strongly related to Jon's berserker tendencies..

“You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.

... It's his own blood he's tasting ( Stark blood) and he's reacted similarly before over Thorne's verbal attacks on Ned and Benjen....so is it something more than personal on this occasion ?

We use the analogy all the time, in sport and other hard fought contests - tasting blood and moving in for the kill. I think it's particularly notable for Jon , stretching beyond unusual strength , and bordering on battle frenzy.

I never thought about the taste of blood in Jon. I am intrigued by the possiblity that it may have a connection with his berserker rage. Did Arya showed similar feats too?

“You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you.”

“The wolf blood.” Arya remembered now. “I’ll be as strong as Robb. I said I would.” She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside.

“The gift of the Many-Faced God is not a child’s plaything. You would kill for your own purposes, for your own pleasures. Do you deny it?”

“I do deny it.”

“You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood.”

Ser Gregor, she could not help but think. Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. If she spoke, she would need to lie, and he would know. She kept silent.

We have a Theon the Hungry Wolf Stark, who was thin and skinny. He was constantly at war. Some people think Ice was too heavy and impractical to be a sword fit for a battlefield. It may be so but if wolf blood untaps a great strength in Starks, then Ice may turn into a weapon of destruction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disparate remarks to catch up on AGoT-ACoK-ASoS and various replies.


Squiring for Mormont


About Jon’s formative years, I can’t understand that Ned did not send Jon to another castle for squiring (like Larence Snow has been sent to Deepwood Motte for instance).


For any highborn boy the squiring years are an essential formative experience. The relationship is comparable to the master/apprentice, the advisor/PhD student etc. It’s also intimate: the squire brings the meals, prepares the clothes, sleeps at the side of the knight, empties the chamberpot etc. Sometimes it’s even more intimate: Renly/Loras, Oberyn/Daemon.


On the top of my head, here are the significant relationships in the story: Jon Arryn/Ned, Ned/Theon, Theon/Wex, Renly/Loras, Oberyn/Daemon, Tyrion/Podrick, Brienne/Podrick, Dunk/Egg, Ramsay/both Walders, Robb/Olyvar, Redwyne/Sam etc.


In many cases, there is a moral connection between the squire and the knight: the squire absorbs the values of the man he serves. Theon will turn out to be deeply split between his Stark mentor and his family, to the point of being rejected by his father. The knight of the laughing tree proclaimed to all the Realm in a booming voice: TEACH YOUR SQUIRE HONOR.


Conversely, the manner in which the knight treats his squire carries moral significance – the squire being representative of the conscience of his master. Consider Ramsay who becomes Little Walder’s model (and seems to have murdered the squire), Theon perpetrates his crimes while Wex, a mute, watches silently. At the other end of the moral spectrum, Brienne throws everything by the window (love, honor) to save Podrick’s life.


Perhaps both the squires and the knight serve as the other’s superego, in different ways though. What did the squiring experience with Mormont bring to Jon? Perhaps not very much. I don’t think we ever see him asking himself: What would the Old Bear do? But he does ask: What would my father do? At Craster’s Keep, Jon seems to take his distance from Mormont when he repeats to the Old Bear Ned’s precept that "There are men not worth having".


It will be interesting to consider Jon's choices as squires in ADwD: Dolorous Edd and then Satin.



Longclaw


Sometimes, a squire is awarded his knighthood from the man he has served. Of course, there is no chivalry in the north. But it seems that the gift of Longclaw is pretty much equivalent to a knighthood. I can add a few words on Valyrian swords. It seems that those swords have a value which can not be measured financially. They change hands by being given, taken or inherited but never sold or exchanged. (Oathkeeper given to Jaime, then to Brienne. Widow’s Wail given to Joffrey, inherited by Tommen, given to Loras. Lady Forlorn given to Lyn Corbray.) Those swords carry the contradictory ideas of being family heirlooms (i.e. remaining in the main branch) but being in need to fall in the most valorous hands (not always the eldest son). Randyll Tarly justifies specifically the disinheritance of Sam in reason of the family sword. Lord Corbray split the lordship and the sword between his sons. Of course, the story of Daemon Blackfyre looms large and, I suppose, is always a reference when a sword is not given to the proper heir. After all, like Daemon, Jon is a bastard, what significance does the Blackfyre story carry for him?



Aemon’s ravens


Another mystery. Before the battle at the Wall, Aemon called the whole realm for help, especially the houses in the north, with two ravens for each destination. How is it that no help came, except for Stannis? After all the Umbers notoriously loathe the wildlings, have a history of stopping their invasions, and still had some men (at least greybeards and green boys) at the Last Hearth. Moreover, a Liddle, a Flint, a Harclay are at the Wall. How is it that the mountain clans didn’t send any help either? The clans mobilized three thousand men for Stannis in ADwD. We know that news from Mormont had reached the Liddle earlier in ASoS. What happened to Aemon’s ravens in the north?



@Mirijam@Paper Waver


Luwin’s role is fascinating in ACoK. This is unfortunately an excellent discussion that we can’t have here. I agree with Paper Waver that the Oldtown journey is Aemon’s idea (we’ll see the clues soon).



@Bemused


Yes, about your analysis of Ghost’s timely arrival.


It seems to me that an attentive reread such as this one should aim occasionally at challenging the common wisdom of the fandom. In particular this notion that Bloodraven took control of the raven to favor Jon. As it happens, I am not necessarily opposed to that explanation. However, it is neither necessary nor sufficient to invoke Bloodraven to explain the raven incident. At the risk of repeating myself, here is the main passage, no harder to follow than an olympic competition.


The kettle was in the comer by the hearth, a big black potbellied thing with two huge handles and a heavy lid. Maester Aemon said a word to Sam and Clydas and they went and grabbed the handles and dragged the kettle over to the table. A few of the brothers were already queueing up by the token barrels as Clydas took the lid off and almost dropped it on his foot. With a raucous scream and a clap of wings, a huge raven burst out of the kettle.


Even when inhabited by a greenseer, a large raven can not manipulate a heavy lid. Someone put the bird in. If you think that Aemon and Bloodraven don’t cooperate, this is fine with me, as I don’t see much reason to bring up Bloodraven in this story. We see that Aemon is in charge of the electoral operations, that he is knowledgeable about ravens, and long familiar with that particular raven, he has followed better than anyone the unfolding of the election, both Mallister and Pyke understand that Sam is coming as his envoy, even Stannis suspects something from his great great uncle, and there is the whole business of the council of 233.


The fact that Aemon’s meddling has escaped so many readers testifies to his ability to quietly and efficiently influence events. Beyond this particular episode, it points to the capicity of maesters to use their training, their knowledge, their situations as family insiders, their professed neutrality to weigh on decisions, as we just saw with Luwin. Barbrey Dustin expresses this much better than I do in ADwD.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... we wind up with the Starks as stewards of WF, yes , on a material, practical, political level . But more than that , we can see Winterfell itself as a living character..the castle it's body , the heart tree it's heart ... and the Starks as the blood that keeps it alive. From a magical, supernatural standpoint, I think this informs ( or should inform ) many of the speculative threads.... If you cut out a being's heart , it will cease to exist. If that being is completely exsanguinated , it's heart cannot function and it will cease to exist...so , there must always be a Stark in WF.

I love this notion and then my mind makes another leap to "There must always be a Stark on the Wall". Is that a saying that us readers have come up with on this forum? Both were built by Bran the Builder and both could be imbued with magic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bran.. Yep, I can follow that, but I think you missed my point. I'm suggesting that the raven could very easily have been in the kettle since the previous evening... Like Ghost ,the bird has been MIA. The bird never did hang out at the rookery ,as far as we know ... and was certainly never caged. If it didn't present itself to anyone, or make any of it's well known utterances, no-one would take any notice of it. ( Just another wild bird ) It would not be difficult to slip in while the door was open and to hide in the bottom of the kettle before the lid was replaced . Apart from that, Sam was obviously as surprised as anyone when the bird emerged, and how do you imagine Aemon, or even Aemon assisted by Clydas would have noticed it, caught it and hidden it ? Throughout the books , Mormont's raven has been very good at eluding even those it has been most familiar with.


I happen to think that it's both necessary and sufficient to see Bloodraven's hand at work ( in the absence of further information ) , but not because it's common wisdom . It seems the most probable conclusion to me , knowing what we do about the bird's past behaviour and the characters and actions of those involved ( including Bloodraven ). I've considered other possibilities , but so far , must discount them.


Otherwise , as I've said , I'm heartily on board with Aemon's involvement ,though I'd characterize it as defensive maneouvers rather than meddling. I think that he knows Sam very well , has a good deal of faith in him and can predict what he's likely to do. It's possible that he also feels sure that neither Pyke nor Mallister would stand aside for the other , even in the interest of the watch , but that may be less certain. Sam only thinks of suggesting Jon when that less certain scenario proves to be the case. While Aemon would surely know who else Sam would suggest in that eventuality.. it's by no means certain that he would have had time to confer with Sam after his visits , then find the bird ,catch the bird and smuggle it into the kettle.


I'm also not sure Stannis suspects Aemon of anything untoward.. it may only be that he's proving he knows Aemon's identity. Many people assume that Aemon had died long since .


I realise Mel has been keeping an eye on proceedings for Stannis , but none of Sam's missions to Mallister and Pyke have yet taken place.


Mirijam ... I like your thoughts about Luwin , but I think the glass candles / bleeding fingers are first expounded on in the prologue for AFfC.


As one who thinks there could well be something to Lady Dustin's charges against Maester Walys , I agree it's probably no accident that Luwin was sent to WF.. but there's no information ( yet ) on how or when the replacement occurred and whether he was the Citadel's first choice , or the choice Winterfell would accept... Like knights or Lords or whoever, I suspect there's a wide range of trustworthiness among maesters.


I've always been undecided as to whether Luwin could possibly have some experience of the old gods in his background ... but I think we see him grow a bit more open as a result of Osha's presence and events involving the boys ( or a gradual return of his youthful attitudes ?) Maybe his little tic of tugging at his chain shows he's not quite as convinced that magic is dead , as his training requires him to proclaim ?...Even if he had no particular religious bent himself, with death approaching , he may indeed have felt an urge to pray. The sept was destroyed , why not turn to Ned's gods ? I particularly like that he doesn't specify which " gods are good ".


In the matter of Jon, from what little we know of Luwin now , it's reasonable to assume that he would at least have been thinking of preventing uncomfortable situations that might develop on the home front with Ned gone. Everyone knew Cat's attitude toward Jon and anyone might assume a teenager might rebel against it at some point... with Ned gone. That could cause a divide in the loyalties of Robb and Rickon ( and potentially Bran , if he should survive ). I think Luwin would feel his first duty was to Cat as Ned's wife and to the true born children , before worrying about Ned's bastard son.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aemon’s ravens

Another mystery. Before the battle at the Wall, Aemon called the whole realm for help, especially the houses in the north, with two ravens for each destination. How is it that no help came, except for Stannis? After all the Umbers notoriously loathe the wildlings, have a history of stopping their invasions, and still had some men (at least greybeards and green boys) at the Last Hearth. Moreover, a Liddle, a Flint, a Harclay are at the Wall. How is it that the mountain clans didn’t send any help either? The clans mobilized three thousand men for Stannis in ADwD. We know that news from Mormont had reached the Liddle earlier in ASoS. What happened to Aemon’s ravens in the north?

I don't remember if we are explicitly told that news reached the mountain clans via ravens. I would think that there is raven communication only between the main castles. The mountain clans are presented as more 'primitive', their holdings as not proper castles and them as no proper lords, and anyways not important enough to train ravens to reach them. I suppose the same goes for the Crackclaw Point in the south, etc.

They are just forgotten and left alone, until they are sorely needed. Robb didn't call them for his war either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually ,though I had always assumed the same , I do remember that Aemon did send ravens to the clans on that one occasion ( I'll look for the quote )..I don't know if it can be a mistake, or not ... because there's no mention of the clans having maesters in their service. ( perhaps they can recieve only ? ) ... contrarily, it's later stated that Stannis will be incommunicado until he reaches Deep Motte ( just one example)...So it's a question, alright ,but.. ??



I guess the question will come up again when we reach ADWD.



Aemon didn't really expect any relief would come in time , though... and if the GNC is real ( I think it is ) the whole North was pretty committed at that stage ..



Too late tonight , I'll have to come back



ETA; found it.. (while waiting for the Magnars party )...



Maester Aemon had sent a lot of birds... not to one king, but to four. Wildlings at the gate, the message ran. The realm in danger. Send all the help you can to Castle Black, Even as far as Oldtown and the Citadel the ravens flew, and to half a hundred mighty lords in their castles. The northern lords offered their best hope, so to them Aemon had sent two birds. To the Umbers and the Boltons, to Castle Cerwyn and Torrhen’s Square, Karhold and Deepwood Motte, to Bear Island, Oldcastle, Widow’s Watch, White Harbor, Barrowton, and the Rills, to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea. Wildlings at the gate. The north in danger. Come with all your strength.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

...This is not, I believe, a direct parallel between Jon and Sansa but rather a parallel of each of them to Ned/Robert and Ned/Littlefinger. The connecting point is that both Jon and Sansa impersonate Ned's part in their relative stories. These parallels could represent a second chance for things to be done "right" this time...

Both women make them feel unwanted, for similar reasons: they are the living reminder of a love rival. But: Cat influenced Ned's decision to send Jon away from Winterfell, and Cat's ghost played a part in Jon's refusing Stannis offer. In Sansa's case, Cat's ghost is the decisive factor on who's to stay (in the Eyrie) and who's to go (via moondoor)...

I suppose there is a sense not of repetion but of variation upon a theme in The Ned/Robert and The Ned/Littlefinger relationships, since the dynamics are different. Robert was indifferent to his 'friend' while Stannis is attentive to Jon. Lord Baelish felt hate and rivalry for the one and lust for the other...

The ghost of Catelyn's influence, I like that. It is a big theme, how the past isn't over in the present of the story but a living presence, affecting actions *sad sigh* :laugh: :thumbsup:

...Though IMO it is no accident that Luwin is the one who sent to Winterfell to serve...

I doubt if the Maesters are sent out purely by chance, using a ballot or a lottery, I imagine there is some kind of selection, choosing an appropriate candidate - it must be so for the likes of Winterfell and other top locations if only because you wouldn't want to send a Maester who wasn't very capable or couldn't deal with the politics.

Hmm, I too remember a candle scene before AFFC something along the lines of an aspirant Maester having to spend a night in vigil with a glass candle to teach them humility - or maybe it is in AFFC...

...I can't see Aemon as making a direct physical intervention in the election. That would imply collaboration with Bloodraven and the CoTF , of which I see no evidence , or even a hint. If Aemon had such a connection , he would have been in possession of information that could have saved many lives , from before Mormont left on his ranging. So from that perspective alone , I can't buy it. ...

.... we wind up with the Starks as stewards of WF, yes , on a material, practical, political level . But more than that , we can see Winterfell itself as a living character..the castle it's body , the heart tree it's heart ... and the Starks as the blood that keeps it alive. From a magical, supernatural standpoint, I think this informs ( or should inform ) many of the speculative threads.... If you cut out a being's heart , it will cease to exist. If that being is completely exsanguinated , it's heart cannot function and it will cease to exist...so , there must always be a Stark in WF.

I agree on the raven. Adding Aemon (or Sam, or A N Other) increases complexity here, there's no guarantee that the raven would fly to Jon and settle on his shoulder, or that it would cry "snow, snow" rather than "corn, corn" and settle anywhere else, unless the person placing the raven either was able to warg the raven themselves or had some prior agreement with a warg who could insure the bird's behaviour. As they say in the theatre - never work with children or animals.

The winterfell idea is interesting. Winterfell is described as a living thing. It (and almost all other castles) has a heart tree. The warm water flowing through the walls is like blood, it's growth was organic over a long period of time, perhaps even in rings as a tree grows, the grey stone walls are the carapace protecting the squidgy life within.

A sense of deep connection and interrelation between nobles and their seats works on many levels and I wouldn't rule out the magical in this book either.

...About Jon’s formative years, I can’t understand that Ned did not send Jon to another castle for squiring (like Larence Snow has been sent to Deepwood Motte for instance).

To my mind this tells us something about The Ned. That he didn't think like that, that he was prepared to go against convention, maybe that the child was particularly dear to him, or that for some other reason he couldn't countenance parting with Jon (nor take him down south) and so on.

...I think Luwin would feel his first duty was to Cat as Ned's wife and to the true born children , before worrying about Ned's bastard son.

Yes, I can see that, there are only two possible fates for Jon (or indeed any non-inheriting son of a noble father in Westeros) a life of service (the wall, the citadel, the faith) or marriage. Marriage opens up the possibility of alternative claimants, blackfyre style, down the road from the bastard line (plus would take some organising ie finding a daughter of a house noble enough but not so noble that they would baulk at marrying a bastard rather than one of The Ned's three trueborn sons, then setting up some modest yet sufficient land holding so they can build a towerhouse of their own by a weirwood) so pushing for the Wall is the easy and natural solution, particular at a crisis point when something has to be done quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While contributing to a recent thread where Dany being a Red Herring for AAR idea is being discussed, I became convinced that most of Aemon's life was driven by his obsession with dreams and prophecies. If we accept this as his primary motive, some interesting comments can be done. With this assumption, let us try to see the events so far through Aemon's POV. The following discussion between Mormont and Tyrion is very interesting:




“When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that.”


“When I was a boy,” Tyrion replied, “my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we’ve been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand.” He grinned.


The Lord Commander did not seem amused. “You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face.” Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. “You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams.”


“In your dreams,” Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.


Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. “The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore.”


This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. “The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings.”


“Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord… but running from what?” Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. “These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night’s Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready.”


“The gods help me if I do not get some sleep tonight. Yoren is determined to ride at first light.” Tyrion got to his feet, sleepy from wine and tired of doom. “I thank you for all the courtesies you have done me, Lord Mormont.”


“Tell them, Tyrion. Tell them and make them believe. That is all the thanks I need.”




In our previous discussion, we argued that the Mormont’s account on the Great Council of 233 was directly the story of Aemon. We also have enough reasons to believe that Aemon had a prominent place in Mormont’s decision making (like appointments of the new recruits). It can also be proposed that Aemon played a similar political game in the selection of Mormont as the LC. So we can say that Aemon was secretly pulling the strings of the NW. In short, Mormont’s discussion with Tyrion can be read as Aemon’s message to Tyrion. Even in the TV show, they gave Aemon extra lines with Tyrion.



In this dialogue, Mormont (read Aemon) tells Tyrion every report (no matter how absurd they sound) to Tyrion. For example he talked about snow bears of the size of aurochs. If we recall the Great Ranging, Mormont said he did not believe in Dywen’s report about 15 ft. tall snow bears. I don’t think Mormont believes everything he said to Tyrion. Yet Aemon wanted Tyrion to know all these and more importantly, he wanted Tyrion to convince everybody into this, what we can say as darkness gathering.



I take this similar to Aemon sending the word wildlings at the gate, send help to everybody. So what is he trying to do? The obvious answer is he was doing his duty, to serve the realm and seek the help of the lords. Now if we recall our assumption that his primary motive was always the prophecies (i.e. who will be the prince that was promised), then we can say the following:



The last summer was the longest summer Aemon had ever seen. Even 7 years of summer in Maekar's reign made some people believe that the Great Summer has come at last. So the last summer is a very significant happening for him. Aemon read the signs and believed that the anticipating end of the longest known summer can only mean the darkness in the prophecy is really gathering. It must be the time for the tPtwP to step forward.



Thus, I believe Aemon was spreading the word of the real battle (which the tPtwP is supposed to take the lead) as wide as possible to see who will respond. I mean it is naturally expected from the tPtwP to fulfill his/her destiny. Therefore, he never missed any chance to spam raven the realm with the warning of the danger coming beyond the Wall and seeking help, wishing that tPtwP will step forward.



That is why, when Stannis came and defeated the wildlings and he claimed to be the AAR, Aemon really gave him a chance. He has the blood of Rhaelle, he carries a magic sword, Mel read some prophecies and believes that he had fulfilled them.



However, Aemon felt the empty glamor and became convinced that Stannis is false. Since his primary motive was to identify tPtwP, something happened and he decided to leave the Wall. We will learn a great deal more from Sam’s POVs in AFfC.



From this perspective, it appears that Aemon was secretly ruling the NW through the puppet LC’s chosen by his games in the elections. He was looking for the tPtwP all his life. The decision of coming to the Wall should be related to his lifelong quest as well. He played a significant part in making Jon the LC. Soon we will see how he manipulated him to send them from the Wall.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...